Kokkarani

Welcome!

Hello, Jogytmathew, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially what you did for Saint Thomas Christians. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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Saint Thomas Christians

Hi, I removed your contribution to Saint Thomas Christians because it lacked a reliable source. You have reinstated it without adding such a source. Please could you let me know where you are getting the information from & I will try to sort it out for you. You can reply here & I will see it. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 15:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see now that you probably intend to use Logan's 1887 Malabar Manual. It is not a reliable source, given that we have so many better and more modern sources available. I think that you should delete your edits until you can find something better. You might also benefit from reading WP:Citing sources, which gives you an explanation of how things are done. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 15:40, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Please, you are continuing to edit without responding here. You need to talk this through. - Sitush (talk) 15:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I have just reverted you again pending some sort of response. No-one is saying that your statements are wrong, but rather that they require better sources. Please talk. - Sitush (talk) 16:04, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

And now I am afraid that I have had to revert you again. Although most of your latest contribution differed from your earlier ones, you did repeat some parts regarding the Malabar Manual etc and for that reason I am going to issue a formal warning. This could all have been so easily avoided if only you would talk. - Sitush (talk) 17:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

April 2012

Your recent editing history at Saint Thomas Christians shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Sitush (talk) 17:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

You are now also removing sourced information without either explanation or discussion. I have had enough and have reported you at WP:3RRNB. Sorry, but even newly registered contributors do need to abide by our policies and while some leeway is given, your refusal to talk is simply not acceptable. - Sitush (talk) 17:53, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Articles for Creation

I notice that you are in the process of creating an article titled "Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malankara Nasrani)". You are aware that we already have an article for that subject, and you have been contributing to it in the last few hours. My suspicion is that you intend to create what amounts to a POV fork. Please do not.

What you should do is discuss any concerns that you have with the current article at Talk:Saint Thomas Christians. - Sitush (talk) 18:09, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Thank you for your recent submission to Articles for Creation. Your article submission has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. Please view your submission to see the comments left by the reviewer. You are welcome to edit the submission to address the issues raised, and resubmit once you feel they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, you can find it at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malankara Nasrani).
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Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! Sitush (talk) 18:12, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Please ignore the invitation to continue working on the submission and instead consider my previuos note regarding POV forks. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 18:14, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been blocked from editing Wikipedia for a period of 24 hours as a result of your disruptive edits. You are free to make constructive edits after the block has expired, but please note that vandalism (including page blanking or addition of random text), spam, deliberate misinformation, privacy violations, personal attacks; and repeated, blatant violations of our policies concerning neutral point of view and biographies of living persons will not be tolerated. LadyofShalott 23:25, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Saint Thomas Christian

Do you think, Saint Thomas is a Saint Thomas Christian in a strict sense? --AshLey ^Msg 07:51, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Your article submission Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malankara Nasrani)

Hello Jogytmathew. It has been over six months since you last edited your article submission, entitled Syrian Christians of Kerala (Malankara Nasrani).

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Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Rankersbo (talk) 09:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

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February 2016

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Marthoma syrian church

Marthoma church never said or believed that malankara church was under the syrian patriach . the background of the case was that in independence of malankara church. the group which came under direct control of antioch from 1876 were able to distort certain facts and get the verdict in their favor.Marthoma church has not gained independence from malankara church which is independent from time immemorial. marthoma church is the malankara church which was independent from begining and advocating or arguing accordingly.

Moreover the 'independence ' -connotaition in the infobox is current ecclesiastical and administrative independence or not any thing other103.28.246.224 (talk) 08:34, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

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March 2016

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@Jogytmathew: please acknowledge you have received these messages. You don't seem to be paying any attention to them. Elizium23 (talk) 05:06, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the valuable guidance. Noted for future work. jogytmathew.

Ways to improve Marthoma Cheria Pally Kothamangalam

Hi, I'm NearEMPTiness. Kokkarani, thanks for creating Marthoma Cheria Pally Kothamangalam!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. This is a good start. However, the article is still a bit too short to be informative. Most importantly, please add some reliable references, e.g. by conducting a web search.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. NearEMPTiness (talk) 14:55, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

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April 2016

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Your contribution on Muvattupuzha article.

Hi, I've been a wiki contributor from 2003 onwards and being from Muvattupuzha, I've created the article around 2004 apart from various other towns near by. What I've been observing from couple of years is, there are many like Rahul Payyappilly - A highly religious catholic who adds up garbage into the article, then there are many many random vandalising incidents. The article was even locked down few years down the line. I see that you are a registered wiki contributor. Firstly, few things I wanted to clear - 1. The name of the town spelled in English is "Muvattupuzha"; Not Moovattupuzha (although people from southern Kerala speaks with this accent). The locals as you know call the name മുവാറ്റുപുഴ/മ്-വാറ്റ്ശ. Only in the Kottayam/Idukki side I think they call by this name. Although, if you look at the meaning in Malayalam Moonnu+aaru+puzha is correct; But, the locals and nearby region knows the place as Muvattupuzha and which is what is common usage. Secondly, The article is about Muvattupuzha town, which is awaiting the tag of a district capital. The article also holds a small area about Muvattupuzhayar (Muvattupuzha river) which can be expanded or can be made into a separate article like "Muvattupuzha (River)" with a redirect from Muvattupuzhayar to Muvattupuzha (River). Thirdly, the usage of indic script in the English wiki is discouraged. I've been typing Malayalam using swanalekha on Debian Linux for some years now. I've personally added the spelling of മുവാറ്റുപുഴ into the article much earlier itself. This was removed by Wiki editors due to a policy change. Now, if you look on the left pane of the wiki article, we can see that Muvattupuzha article is also available in Malayalam and Tamil, Hindi etc. So, there is no need to add Malayalam script. Please cooperate. 202.83.56.5 (talk) 20:07, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Saint Thomas Christians

Hi, Good to know that you belong to the Jacobite Church. Please feel free to edit the article for making it better. I respect your edits. That is the reason why I did not delete the image of the Jacobite mass even though it is placed in the wrong place and irrelevant to the heading Division and defiance. Image of Kadamattom Pally is also retained. I have also uploaded images of Paravur Jacobite Church, Abdul Jaleel Bawa etc and lots of other Jacobite images. Check Gregorios Abdul Jaleel. But please do not edit the history section because it is written impartially without favoring Orthodox or Catholics or Jacobites or any other factions. Achayan (talk) 09:14, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi, please do not replace the existing Saint Thomas Christian divisions image with new one as the existing one was finalized after lot of debates in Wikipedia. You can discuss your concerns in the talk page and reach consensus. Also the present image will be deleted as it violates copyright. Another important concern is that Wikipedia do not entertain replacing of SVG images with PNG. Again regarding the image of Tomb of Francis Roz, the united Saint Thomas Christians were indeed called Mar Thoma Nasranis or simply Nasranis of Malankara. Malankara and Malabar are just synonyms of the land Kerala. Any faction can use it. You may refer Niranam Grandhavari or Varthamanappusthakam or any other relevant books. And I am surprised to see your argument that the crowning image has my photo!! The photo meets all the wiki criteria and it is depicts the crowning ceremony during wedding which is an Eastern Christian speciality. It is evident from the photo that it does not focus on the participants, but the ceremony and the celebrant bishop. We do not have any other images in Wikipedia to replace it. So it ought to be kept.Achayan (talk) 08:17, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Even though Coonan Cross Oath was held in 1653, the split took place later after the arrival of Carmelite mission (1657). The exact year of split needs to be researched, but definitely not 1653. Coonan Cross Oath was taken by the whole of Saint Thomas Christians including Arkadiakon Thoma, Parambil Mar Chandy and others. So do not edit right away, first discuss and reach consensus.Achayan (talk) 08:47, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Church of the East

Indian Saint Thomas Christians and Persian Syrian Christians converted by St. Thomas have no relation with the Antiochian Church. We were out of the Roman Empire whereas the Antiochian Church as well as the Pentarchy which you are talking about are all with respect to the erstwhile Roman Empire. You may refer the list of Patriarch of the Church of the East for better understanding. Thomas the Apostle preached the gospel outside Roman empire. Mebinjohn92 (talk) 19:32, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

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MOSC as Oriental Orthodox Church

Please see the article's talk page, I started a discussion there. Let me know your views on it. ---45.125.147.77 (talk) 13:25, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

MOSC is also known as Indian Orthodox Church

Added one more section in MOSC article' talk page for this discussion. Please do not remove data from a wiki page without proper reasoning ---45.125.147.77 (talk) 14:16, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

St.Thomas Christians until 5th Century CE

Added one more secton in MOSC article talk page. Pls see ---59.95.64.55 (talk) 04:33, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

DO NOT REVERT OTHERS EDIT FROM TALK PAGE

Dear friend, pls do not revert others edit from talk page!! You do not have any right to take out others edits from an articles talk page. I am expecting a decent discussion ---117.219.248.204 (talk) 17:02, 5 July 2016 (UTC) __________ It was accidental as I use mobile phone for editing. Did n't do it purposefully.Sorry for thatPhantom (talk) 17:32, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

link needed

can I get the link for below quote
Cite book |author1=Gregorios |author2=Paulos |author3=Roberson |author4=Ronald G.|author5=| title=The Encyclopedia Of Christianity Online (Syrian Orthodox Churches in India) | year=2016 | publisher=Brill Online Reference works| location=Netherlands | isbn=9789004169678| pages=|quote=The Oriental Orthodox churches, part of the worldwide family of Eastern Christians, comprise the Armenian Apostolic Church (Catholicate of Holy Etchmiadzin and Catholicate of Sis), Coptic Orthodox Church, Eritrean Orthodox Church (Eritrea 2), Ethiopian Orthodox Church, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (sometimes referred to as the Indian Orthodox Church; Syrian Orthodox Churches in India), and the Syrian (Syriac) Orthodox Church of Antioch (including the Catholicate of Indi…

Thanks ---117.219.248.204 (talk) 18:42, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

(talk page watcher) Seek and ye shall find ;) _Muffled ^Pocketed 18:48, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Unanswered questions in MOSC's talk page

Hi User:Kokkarani

Since you have have not answered to my queries and keep on editing the article Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church which is according your interests or biased views, I am moving the discussion from article's talk page to here, Lets continue the discussion here:

- - - - - - - - - - - -
MOSC & Patriarch faction both are SOC. Pls read the highlighted parts of the court order posted below. If MOSC is a separate Indian Church ,please show proof so that administrator can decidePhantom (talk) 05:09, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

---

@User:Kokkarani,
You have not answered for queries raised by me !! or you dont have answers for those!!! You are keep on saying me to refer highlighted portion in court order. That is "highlighted" only for you. For me, all the points in court order are highlighted! we can not selectively pick and discuss one or two points in that. For ADMINS to decide what is correct and what is wrong you need to provide clarification to the queries raising by other wiki editors. Anyway I am coming to your last response. You said: MOSC & Patriarch faction both are SOC . What do you mean by that? (1) MOSC & Patriarch faction are ONE church and part of SOC __Or__ (2)MOSC and Patriarch faction are two different churches and both are part of SOC?? ---117.219.248.204 (talk) 16:44, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

---

Dear friend, Patriarch faction and Catholico faction of the Malankara Syrian Church (jacobite etbite church) operate independently as two separate churches now. 1934 Constitution is valid for MOSC and it is binding to them. Patriarch faction do not agree with 1934 Constitution and operate as a separate Syrian Church. Both are SOCPhantom (talk) 17:27, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

---

yes. wt ever you said in first line is completely correct!Patriarch faction and Catholicos faction operate independently as two separate churches now. That is the REALITY! Now the question, Are MOSC and SOC itself operate as a single church now? or at least MOSC functions as a division of SOC? if MOSC is a part of SOC how other Oriental Orthodox Churches considering MOSC as a different member? Please remember, Oriental Orthodox churches are hierarchically independent!! Why SOC or Patriarch of Antioch is not objecting this? - --117.219.248.204 (talk) 18:28, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

---

As I said we both know that MOSC is an Independent church. However it is an independent Jacobite church or Syrian Church h in India or Syrian Orthodox(Orthodox Syrian) church in India. It is NOT an Indian Orthodox Church in the sense it is theologically different. It is an independent west Syrian church in India. It is also some times referred by other western churches as Indian Orthodox Church in the sense to distinguish it from the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch. Orthodox Syrian church means Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch. Malankara Orthodox Syrian church means Syrian Orthodox Church in India. I think you got the point. Phantom (talk) 18:43, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

---

1)YES. MOSC is an Independent oriental orthodox church which follows west-syrian rites.
If it is an Independent church why we should say MOSC is SOC (and providing the link of SOC Article)??.
Obviously the reader will get confused and he will leave the page!!

2)Who said MOSC can be called as Indian Orthodox Church only if theology is different?
Not only Indian or Syrian, all Oriental Orthodox churches follows same theology
Similarly in the case of Eastern Orthodox church all of them (Greek,Russian..) follow same theology

3)Who said only Western churches referring MOSC as IOC?? Eastern churches like Coptic, Armenian or Ethiopian churches referring MOSC as IOC (pls cross check the links shared in above section) If they (MOSC) are recognizing themselves as Indian Orthodox Church and sister churches and media is referring them in that way, wt is the problem? I am not understanding? Why you or me should be intolerant to that?

4)Please see the talk section where you mentioned Indian Orthodox Church should be removed hence it gives a false idea to the wiki readers that this church is a separate church other than Syrian Orthodox Church of India, which is a false claim which is contradicting your own statement As I said we both know that MOSC is an Independent church. !!!!. So are you sure on your own understanding ? or keep changing your views time-to-time ??

Please answer to above queries point-by-point, so that wiki admin(s) can take faster decisions.-45.126.204.90 (talk) 02:54, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

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Discussion on Chart Saint Thomas Christian's - Divisions- History.png

Dear Kokkarani, Please note, I started a new discussion in talk page of this([1]) chart. -45.125.146.70 (talk) 10:09, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

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August 2016

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Speedy deletion nomination of Mar Sabor Mar Aphroth Church Akaparambu

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hey if u dot now the mankara church history please try to edit it. the things u deleted and added are totally right. just read and understand the indian supreme court orders about the church. reply me about the mankara church.Davidj233

Syro-Malankara church and West Syrian Rite

A few queries raised in this section. Please respond - 45.126.205.180 (talk) 16:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@Kokkarani, you have not provided clarifications for above queries. Instead of that you changed the title of the article "Malankara Rite" to "Syro Malankara Rite" and did these changes in the article without providing any references.
Can you please answer below queries:
1)Your recent edit says Syro-Malankara church follows "Syro-Malankara Rite" which is a variant of "West-Syrian Rite". So What are the key differences between these two rites?
2)Is there a rite called "Malankara Rite"?? Are "Malankara Rite" and "Syro Malankara Rite" one and same??
3)Which is the rite practiced in Jacobite Syrian Christian Church? is it West Syrian or its variant??
4)Which is the rite practiced in Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church?? is it West Syrian or its variant??
-45.126.205.110 (talk) 00:06, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

1) Actually there is no such rite existing in my opinion. However the catholics classify it that way to distinguish different rites among them. Syro Malankara church follows exactly the same west Syrian rite liturgy of the jacobite with little bit difference here and there to suit it or adapt it to Catholic way. In my opinion there is no need for such an article. About the Malankara rite, I don't think any thing such a Malankara rite existed. If you mean the Indian way of worship or liturgy, it could be a mixture of Hindu and West Asian styles. People were practicing christianity while living their life in a Hindu style. Then what is a Malankara rite? Is it an indigenous way? or an East Syrian way or a West Syrian way or a Protestant way? It is not easy to define such a thing.

Catholics say Malankara rite to distinguish a section among them who separated from Malankara Syrian church. For them Malankara rite is nothing but a section which follows the Jacobite liturgy.

Jacobite syrian Church , Orthodox syrian Church and Malabar Independent syrian church are following the same west Syrian liturgy.All of them using the same vestments also.

All these said with my present limited knowledge. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Is St. Thomas Evangelical Church a protestant church??

In this edit, you are changing recognition of the church from "Independent Episcopal Church" to "Independent Episcopal Protestant Church" . But where is the reference for this?? It has been noticed that you are doing major edits in Wikipedia according to your personal views without providing any references or proper discussions in articles talk page! Most of the time you are not even providing description of your changes in Edit Summary section!! -45.126.205.110 (talk) 00:31, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

St Thomas Evangelical church is in Anglican communion. Anglican communion churches can be protestant churches. However, recently I did a bit of research in this matter and found out that Marthoma church and St Thomas Evangelical church are Anglican Reformed churches and NOT protestant churches. I will change it immediately in the diagram.Thanks for pointing out the mistakes. Also your critical opinions are welcome. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 01:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the response, It is one of the mistakes in the diagram created by you. There are many other errors existing. But first you explain in each article's talk page why are you changing the existing diagram with the one created by you. Then I will point out other mistakes...One more thing, my comment is not only about the diagram. Its about the your Wikipedia editing style itself. Many places you do major alterations in the content without providing any references, seldom discuss in talk page or not even provide any clue in the edit summary. Above one is just an example!! By the way, can you please respond to the queries raised in above section (Syro-Malankara church and West Syrian Rite). At least, let me understand your edits from your own view points :) -45.126.204.79 (talk) 05:46, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

If you compare the two charts you could see the difference. The new chart gives a better idea of the history in a nutshell. Also removed some errors in the previous chart like formation date of Malabar Independent church and it was classified as a reformed church while it was not. Also the major split started in 1653 with coonan cross oath. In 1665 Mathoma received Apostolic succession from Abdal Jaleel and forged a relationship with him. This is considered as the starting point of West Syrian acceptance in Malankara. Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 12:27, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Issues are there with new chart too, following are a few I could find out in first glance

• In 1665, Abdul Jaleel consecrated Marthoma I by laying on of hands. It is a practice still existing in christian churches that consecrating bishops for the other churches when the episcopal succession is in danger - Eg: Thozhiyoor Church and Marthoma Church. Hence we can not interpret Malankara Church became part of Syrian/Antioch Church in 1665. Gradually Malankara Church adopted West Syrian Liturgy. Later point of time Patriarch gained more power in Malankara due to various external/internal factors. But Patriarch/SOC never had a temporal power in Malankara. So in diagram, in 1665, we need to explicitly mention as "Relationship with Syrian Orthodox". Just mentioning "Syrian Orthodox" is misleading and that is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
• Malabar Independent Syrian Church (Thozhiyoor Church) follows Oriental Orthodox faith and worship. But this church is officially NOT part of Oriental Orthodox Communion. Hence this church to be represented as independent Church with a different color coding.
• No need to combine Marthoma Church and St.Thomas Evangelical Church in single box. As these churches are independently operating,use two different boxes. Same with Jacobite Church and MOSC also.
  

Thanks -45.126.206.196 (talk) 13:29, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Your suggestions are welcome. I believe in continuous improvement. Among your critical suggestions, 1) I could agree with you in this case. We could mention it as you said.

2) In the case of Malabar Independent church, I disagree with classifying as Independent church with different color coding.Technically it may not be part of the OO communion , however it is 100% eligible for that. It is classified as Syriac Orthodox group of churches. We could say it is an Independent Jacobite church. Better add OO/Jacobite group/Syriac Orthodox group. Also the priests are trained in Jacobite seminary as per my knowledge.

3) In this case I agree with you . It is better to show each church in a separate box. Give me a few days to up date it with your valuable suggestions. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 16:52, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi, On #2, we are discussing about the communion. There are only 6 OO churches - namely Coptic, Armenian, Syriac, Indian(Malankara), Ethiopian and Eritrean. JSSC as part of SOC, its recognition is also OO. But that is not true with Malabar Independent Church. Yes, we have to classify in pure technical way, no other eligibility critera. What we can do here is to mark the church as Independent church as in the existing chart with a different color coding but add a note this church follows Oriental Orthodox faith&worship. And there is no classification exists as Jacobite Group or Syriac Orthodox Group of Churches and better not to waste our time on discussing that. I do have one more query on the representation in new chart- It is shown as 52AD to 500AD as Inception Stage of Church, So wt was changed on 500AD? why particularly 500 AD? Wt we know about faith/worship of Kerala Christians at that time?- say at 450AD and at 550AD . Which are the supporting references for marking this inception Stage? - 59.95.65.151 (talk) 21:55, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

2) If that is the best way to classify Malabar Independent Syrian Church, we may go that way.

Catholic encyclopedia says Malabar church started following Nestorian faith from 5th century onwards. Before that we could say it as inception stage until we get a clear cut idea. Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 05:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

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September 2016

Your recent editing history at Saint Thomas Christians shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

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• You also need to read WP:NOTVAND and stop with the accusations. - Sitush (talk) 09:27, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Noted.ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 06:05, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

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October 2016

Thank you for trying to keep Wikipedia free of vandalism. However, one or more edits you labeled as vandalism, such as the edit at Mar Thoma Syrian Church, are not considered vandalism under Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia has a stricter definition of the word "vandalism" than common usage, and mislabeling edits as vandalism can discourage editors. Please see what is not vandalism for more information on what is and is not considered vandalism. Thank you. Elizium23 (talk) 00:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the guidance. Noted for future edits. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 00:23, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Reverts to Mar Thoma Syrian Church

Hi there, thanks for helping keep Wikipedia free from possible vandalism - I'm trying to understand whats going on at Mar Thoma Syrian Church. It's fair to say the IP's edits are somewhat disruptive, but there could be an element of good faith in their attempts. I must admit I can't really get my head around their additions of "MARTHOMA XX" - could you shed some light on the situation? I've asked the IP to try to explain the edits they are trying to make. It may be worth requesting page protection should discussions with the IP not resolve this -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 12:19, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

There is no point in adding MARTHOMA XX in my opinion. There is no reference for this claim. Marthoma is a honorific title taken by the metropolitans in the Malankara church. (please see 'Malankara Metropolitan' in wikipedia).There were 9 Marthoma titles, Marthoma 1 to Marthoma 9. Thats it. Afterwards the metropolitans of the Malankara church did not took this title.(no more Mathoma 10 or Marthoma 11). So its a false claim when some body saying Marthoma XX, however they could easily say or add simply 'Marthoma' with out any numbering. I object adding the number 'xx' to 'Marthoma' title because there is no such numbering exist after 9th Marthoma. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 15:55, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

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Response to your queries in Oriental Orthodox sidebar talk

Please see my response in Oriental Orthodox sidebar talk and requesting to refrain from disruptive edits. Thanks --171.48.29.171 (talk) 04:44, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

The current Oriental Orthodox dispute

Dear Kokkarani, I think you and 171.48.29.171 are having a storm in a teacup - an argument over a very minor disagreement that is easily resolved. I'm sure we can find a compromise that works for everyone involved. I have already proposed and implemented such a compromise in the sidebar template. Is this acceptable to you?

Also, I understand that you believe that christology is more important that which communion a church is a part of. However, not everyone agrees, and we can simply list both things in the relevant articles. Most of the Miaphysite churches are both Miaphysite and Oriental Orthodox at the same time (that is to say, their christology is Miaphysite and they are also part of the Oriental Orthodox communion). There is no reason to have an argument about whether a church should be called "Miaphysite" or "Oriental Orthodox". If it's both, we can call it both. The only one that is Miaphysite but NOT Oriental Orthodox is the Thozhiyur Church. And even then, I agree that it's related to Oriental Orthodoxy, so I agree with listing it on the Oriental Orthodox sidebar under "other topics" (as you can see in my compromise).

Come on, let's find a way to work together and arrive at a solution that everyone can agree with. I'm sure we can do it! Ohff (talk) 19:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

I also thought it would be useful to create a diagram of the Oriental Orthodox communion in order to better explain the issue. Click here for the diagram. To summarize:

• The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church is Oriental Orthodox, at the highest tier ("autocephalous", i.e. fully independent).
• The Malankara Jacobite Church and the Brahmavar Church are also Oriental Orthodox, but not fully independent. The OO sidebar - as it used to be - did not list any OO churches of this type. But I have edited it to include them.
• The Thozhiyur Church is not part of the Oriental Orthodox communion, but it has the same beliefs and a very close relationship with this communion. It can certainly be included in the sidebar, just not in the same place as the churches that are officially members of Oriental Orthodoxy.

I hope this helps! Like I said, finding a compromise about how to list these churches should be easy. Let me know what you think. Ohff (talk) 20:21, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello, and thank you for responding! Let me reply to your three points, in order:

1. You said "Please do understand that for all Indian churches, Indian Christianity sidebar and for Saint Thomas Christians the St. Thomas Christian sidebar should come first place in importance." Ok. Agreed! I have no opinion about this. I just want all relevant sidebars to be included, the order doesn't matter to me. So from now on, I will make sure that those other sidebars come first.

2. About the OO sidebar: Oriental Orthodoxy is a subset of the Miaphysite Churches, that is true, but it is a very large subset. That is to say, almost all Miaphysite Churches are in the Oriental Orthodox communion. Basically the only problem is what to do about the Thozhiyur Church. That is the only one of the Indian Churches that is Miaphysite but not Oriental Orthodox. So, I don't think we should change the entire portal because one Church is difficult to categorize. Instead, we should figure out to make that Church fit into the existing portal somehow. As you can see, my proposed compromise solution was to include the Thozhiyur Church in the Oriental Orthodox sidebar, but not in the same place as the other Churches. What do you think about that?

3. I don't know about any of the other people involved in this - please do not confuse me with them. I think they are being very aggressive and are making things worse instead of better. For my part, I have absolutely no interest in promoting any sidebar over any other. I do want the Oriental Orthodox sidebar to be included on articles related to Oriental Orthodoxy, but I don't want it to be first. My interest is to make sure that Wikipedia provides good information on the Miaphysite and Oriental Orthodox Churches for Western people, who often don't know anything about these Churches. That is why I like the Oriental Orthodox sidebar - because it enables easy navigation, so readers can find out more about all these Churches. That is my interest here. As for the order, or which thing is presented first and which is second or third, that doesn't matter to me. Ohff (talk) 05:06, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

As a sign of good will, I will help to maintain the Indian Christianity sidebar and the St. Thomas Christian sidebar first on the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church article. I would appreciate it if you returned the favour and also maintained the Oriental Orthodox sidebar somewhere in the article (it doesn't matter where). I've opened a Talk page discussion about this as well. I believe in compromise! Ohff (talk) 05:39, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Ohff, if you are referring about a third person who is involved in this topic, its me, but I never made anything worse. Yes, sometimes I had to act aggressively else if some errors (especially those errors some users deliberately making) added to the Wikipedia, later it would be difficult to remove later, many articles/templates/sidebars will be created based on these erroneous stuff. For example you are referring about Brahmavar Church in this discussion. There is no such church!! its a diocese in Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. That article has to be corrected or deleted/merged.
I have a request to Ohff, please do not make any changes based on User:Kokkarani's inputs alone, please give time for other users to give their feedback and suggestions. I have corrected User:Kokkarani's edits in many topics like this. I will give my feedback on the Side Bar issue in article's talk page. Thanks ---171.48.21.9 (talk) 23:13, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for letting me know about the Brahmavar Church/diocese. I'm sorry I said you were being too aggressive, but I saw you and User:Kokkarani editing back and forth and it was not going anywhere. On wikipedia, the only way to end an argument is to reach some sort of compromise - there is no way to "win". So let's reach a consensus. I will wait for your inputs as well. Ohff (talk) 23:43, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Ohff for your kind words. Personally I do not want to edit back and forth, but changes happening without discussion or without valid explanations, I had to do that. But will try to avoid that, my request is that please do not make any immediate changes in templates/portals without concluding our discussions. Thanks - --171.48.21.9 (talk) 00:18, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I agree, I won't make any more changes to templates until we have consensus. Hopefully we will reach agreement soon! Ohff (talk) 00:36, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Also there is a wrong argument/movement going on in Wikipedia about Oriental Orthodoxy. Oriental Orthodoxy is a synonym for Oriental Orthodox which is a synonym for Miaphysite/Monophysite churches. How ever some people knowingly/unknowingly tries to define Oriental Orthodoxy is a communion of 6 Oriental orthodox churches..What a pity!!!!

Please refer this :

orthodoxwiki.org/Oriental_Orthodox

to see whether Oriental Orthodox is a communion or churches that follows Miaphysite christology. ThanksMandrake_the_Magician (talk) 00:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

@Kokkarani/Mandrake,
What are you trying to prove by above Orthodox Wiki page? Did you not get any valid reference till this time? I have already provided references from Encyclopedia Britannica and New Catholic Encyclopedia which clearly says Oriental Orthodox is a communion of six churches. I would like to add a few more references:
1. Christians & Jews in Dialogue, Mary C. Boys, Sara S. Lee,SkyLight Paths Publishing, Page 156, Link: The six Oriental Orthodox churches (Christian Coptic Church of Egypt, Eritrean Orthodox Church, Ethiopian Orthodox Church, Indian Orthodox Church, Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch and Armenian Orthodox Church), each independent but in communion with each others.
2. The In-Between People: A Reading of David Bosch through the Lens of Mission History and Contemporary Challenges In Ethiopia,Girma Bekele,Wipf and Stock Publishers, Page 153, Link : "The six Oriental Orthodox churches are: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch and all the East, Armenian Apostolic Church, Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church of India and Eritrean Orthodox Church.
3.Church Schism & Corruption, Achim N Maseko, 2008, ISBN 978-1-4092-2186-9, Page 159, Link: Oriental Orthodoxy is the communion of Eastern Christian Churches that recognizes only three ecumenical councils.....The Oriental Orthodox communion comprises six groups: Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church and Armenian Apostolic Churches.
4.Celebrating a Century of Ecumenism, John A. Radano, 2012, Page 305, Link ..the largest separate communion of churches today that resulted from the early Christological controversies is known as Oriental Orthodox. It is composed of six churches, each of fully independent and possesses many distinctive traditions.

Please go through the references/links provided above and try to understand the facts. Requesting to refrain from edit wars and petty arguments. Thanks. Anonym---122.167.13.127 (talk) 16:00, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

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