Mar vin kaiser

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I just saw the map that you added to the wiki on the Tang dynasty. It comes from the Sui-Tang volume of Zhongguo lishi dituji 中国历史地图集 (1982), a historical atlas edited by Tan Qixiang 谭其骧. Whoever took the picture cropped it so that we don't see the title of the page, but the format of the "Legend" is unmistakably the same as in the rest of the atlas. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 15:28, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for identifying the source, Madalibi, but Mar vin kaiser did not scan it from a book himself; he saved and uploaded the image from a website. I have a question about the map's caption (i.e. "The border of the early Tang Dynasty"): exactly which year or decade is this map supposed to represent? Perhaps some time during the reign of Tang Taizong? The bubbly, idealistic borders look ridiculously inaccurate, for one, and all of this supposes that scholars are of the consensus that the Tang at some point had direct control over all surrounding areas inhabited by Turks and northern nomads (I say this because there is no shades of green to indicate which areas were directly administered by the Tang, and which areas were inhabited by nothing but roaming tribal groups claiming loyalty to the Tang).--Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:03, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I should have expressed myself more clearly. I saw that the map comes from another website, but that website doesn't mention the source of the map and doesn't indicate that it has obtained permission to post the map in the first place. And since the book was first published in 1982, it's not automatically open-source. The Wikimedia [1] for the picture is tagged for speedy deletion unless someone clears the copyright issue before January 31. Is there anything we can do at Wikimedia to clear the map? Otherwise I agree that it's either very misleading or grossly inaccurate. Happy holidays, guys! Madalibi (talk) 10:52, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Gun (Chinese)

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About Ancestral name（姓）and Clan name（氏）

Spring and Autumn Period，male noble used clan name,female use Ancestral name，so 姬某某 (Ji +given name) is wrong，maybe you shall know this. -星光下的人 (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

about Bo zhong shu ji（伯仲叔季）

In china,Bo zhong shu ji is used to permutation brothers order,Bo means his the eldest son,zhong means the second ,shu menas the third,ji means the youngest.Taibo's bo is not Count. 班固《白虎通·姓名》：“《故以时长幼号曰伯、仲、叔、季也。伯者，长也。伯者子最长，迫近父也。仲者，中也。叔者，少也。季者，少也。适长称伯，伯禽是也。庶长称孟，以鲁大夫孟氏。“ -星光下的人 (talk) 01:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

If you say so, it sounds about right. Thank you.

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Proposed deletion of Francisco González Ledesma

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Re: Question about Deletion

Hi, Thanks for contacting me! About your previous question, I do not have access to previously deleted articles but I'm sure the administrator, who performed the action, can undo it once you explain your intention to add sources; here's his page User:Xoloz. And, as for the sources, citing foreign sources is perfectly fine.

Deletion of Francisco González Ledesma

Hi,

I apologize for the lateness of this reply, but I have been in hospital for a bit dealing with a pesky illness. In answer to your question, Wikipedia cannot be used as a source for itself. When writing an article in the English Wikipedia, it is inappropriate to cite the Spanish Wikipedia as the reliable source. Instead, the proper choice is to cite the sources used by the Spanish Wikipedia in composing its article. For instance, today's featured article on Spanish Wikipedia is Leche. If one wanted to translate that article to compose the English article on Milk, one wouldn't simply cite the Spanish Wikipedia article Leche; one would cite any or all of the 91 reliable sources referenced in the reference section of the article Leche. One should follow the same practice in composing an article concerning Francisco González Ledesma. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 20:43, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

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Why???

Why are you deleting the word ‘Roman’ from Roman Catholic Church from a large number of pages? Have you achieved community consensus for this? If not, would you consider reverting all of these edits?--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 11:50, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

@Literaturegeek: Check here, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Catholic Church. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:53, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

@Literaturegeek: As the Wikipedia Manual of Style says, "The terms Catholic Church and Catholic are acceptable names for the worldwide church in full communion with the Pope in Rome. Although branch theory-derived objections tend to be rejected along WP:FRINGE lines, what settles the WP:CONSENSUS is WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. Article names, and by consequence its content, should not be changed from this convention without strong reason.". Therefore, the convention is to use the terms "Catholic Church" and "Catholic". I'm just bringing articles to convention. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 12:02, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

That manual of style is about the Catholic Church article naming dispute, i.e. whether the Catholic Church article should be a disambiguous page covering Anglican and other Protestant denominations who view themselves as a Protestant Catholic/universal faith. That page you link to has absolutely nothing to do with usage of the term “Roman Catholic Church” in article text. In fact, the Catholic Church page has Roman Catholic Church bolded in the first sentence as a name it is known by. There is no policy or guidelines that says or suggests that ‘Roman Catholic Church’ is an unacceptable name on Wikipedia that should be changed in article body text. Please revert your changes and seek community consensus for your edits. There may well be good reason for the reader to know which form of Catholic Church is being referred to as Anglican and certain other faiths regard themselves as a Catholic/universal Christian faith church.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 12:32, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Wow! That manual of style is only a proposal, it is not even accepted, but yet you are making sweeping changes to many articles. Please stop making these changes to articles, which is effectively banning the term ‘Roman Catholic Church’ from the entire Encyclopedia. Your editing is, at this point in time, disruptive.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 12:53, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

@Literaturegeek: No, it does not make sense to ban the term "Roman Catholic Church" in Wikipedia and that's not what I'm doing. It is a term that refers to one of the particular churches in the Catholic Church that uses the Roman rite, among the other particular churches in the Catholic Church. If you read the discussions, one of the reasons why the term "Roman Catholic Church" is not preferred, but instead the "Catholic Church", because different groups of people take it to mean different things, leading to ambiguity. My edits are consistent with the manual of style (even if it does not refer to article text), that whenever what is referred to is the "Catholic Church", that is the preferred term. As you can see, all article entry names already use "Catholic" instead of "Roman Catholic", unless that is indeed the norm (for example in dioceses that use the Roman rite). Whenever it is more advantageous to use the term "Roman Catholic Church", it is used in specific cases that don't lead to ambiguity. And no, my editing is not disruptive. Since you feel strongly about this, I will stop for now, but I will look at the issue again, due to your objections. @Chicbyaccident: Sorry for bringing you into this, but what do you think? Is there an issue with me editing entries like this? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:21, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

The thing is is that there is no manual of style about this issue, it is a proposal that went stale. Chic by accident can join the conversation but will run into the problem that the manual of style is a proposal that so far is not accepted by the community. Who knows, may be your changes are positive but I think you need to get that manual of style accepted as a guideline if you feel strongly about this issue and get some text included in the manual of style guidance about changing ‘Roman Catholic Church’ to ‘Catholic Church’ before making any further changes like you have been doing.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 13:42, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

The Anglican Communion considers itself part of the Catholic church. I think the changes are a bad idea. Doug Weller talk 16:48, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

That link is a failed proposal. Please revert the rest of your changes. "Roman Catholic" is the common name. If you have not reverted within a day, I will do so for you and may request a topic ban. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:03, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

• This is going to be long, but you've stumbled into one of the most complex areas of Wikipedia: I've said this elsewhere, but while I typically fall on the Catholic side in article title discussions (for a variety of reasons, but I'm certainly not a hardliner on it), changes within article prose are a very different matter. The Protestant vs. Orthodox vs. Catholic feud over the title is less important here than the fact that any change is going to make people angry, and quite simply it is not worth the effort or amount of time that would be expended to get a universal guideline on usage here (plus it would fail because of how complex this situation is.)
  We have finally come to a somewhat stable status quo on article titles (which has been trending anti-Roman for the last few years), but there is simply no way that we will be able to parse out how to deal with it in prose in a way that achieves anything remotely resembling a community consensus. Lacking such a consensus, on Wikipedia, the rule for stylistic changes such as this is to stay with the stable usage and use it consistently.If you create a new article, you are generally free to use either usage you want: I almost always only use Catholic in my articles, and you're free to do this too. If someone came along and started adding Roman to articles I'd written such as Pietro Campori, I'd be mad too, because it's pretty disruptive and literally does no good.
  Sorry for the long post, but you've inadvertently reignited something that has been sleeping for a very long time, and that in all honesty, should be left asleep. The status quo of not having a consistent usage for prose in every article might not be satisfying, but it really is the best outcome we're going to get. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:53, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: Hi, I'd just like to ask your opinion on this. For example, there are some saints that are listed on the sidebar to be venerated by the "Roman Catholic Church" and "Eastern Catholic Churches", and some saints listed as being venerated by the "Roman Catholic Church" without the "Eastern Catholic Churches" listed. The thing is, technically, all saints venerated by the "Roman Catholic Church" (whether you mean the communion of churches in communion with the Pope or those that just use the Roman rite), are also venerated by the "Eastern Catholic Churches" (which are also in communion with the Pope). So, there seems to be an inconsistency here when it comes to what churches are listed to venerate a saint (or how it is listed). The options would be: 1.) to list both every time (Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Catholic Churches), 2. to list only "Roman Catholic Church" (to mean all churches in communion with the Pope even though other Wikipedia articles understand it only the Roman-rite churches), or 3. to list only "Catholic Church" (which would be in line with article names as meaning the churches in communion with the Pope regardless of rite). Leaving the articles as is results in inconsistencies at best, misunderstandings at worst. What do you think? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:55, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Do not change unless there is a strong reason to change. If you think there is such a reason, explain it on the talk page after you make the change. As I said above, a large part of keeping the peace on this dispute is maintaining the stable version of an article when either C or RC is valid and some inconsistencies are fine. Nothing you raised above is factually wrong, so the need to change is not pressing. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:08, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. If the term was originally "Roman Catholic", there was likely a good reason. The exception is on specific Catholic theology or Catholic history articles. As for the saints, the question is what the common name is. If they are also recognized by the Anglican communion, I believe that "Roman Catholic" is appropriate. I'll let you decide.

I did suggest that you should revert the changes. In that case, you could have had more latitude in which articles to restore and which not to. I'm applying the rule-of-thumb I described and linking to the discussion where I proposed it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:14, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

I could add that none of the commentators above act in a exclusively representative way for Wikipedia, the Wikipedia community, or the consensus around here. While I agree with parts of it, I'd like to add two comments myself in this area. 1) When an article name states "Catholic" rather than "Roman Catholic", I see little if any reasons to stubbornly mainatin "Roman Catholic" in its text context. Thus far, I think Mar vin kaiser made a positive contribution, and the users critics are addressing the issue unjustly. 2.) A manual of style mirroring the previosuly mentioned point may very well be realised. It would be desirable. Chicbyaccident (talk) 21:15, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Consubstantiation

Re: this edit. Thanks for providing an explanation this time. Edit comments are helpful in explaining the purpose of your edits to other editors.

I'm still curious to what in the Manual of Style you are referring. Looking around I see:

• A failed proposal for a Manual of Style section
• A failed proposal for a naming convention on the Catholic Church, and
• A draft proposal for a naming convention on Catholicism, which is mostly not written yet.

I'm not aware of any Wikipedia guidelines that would prevent refering to the Church as the Roman Catholic Church, and the repeated failure of attempts to set up a naming guideline suggests that there is not consensus for such a guideline.--Srleffler (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Reverting removal of "Roman Catholic"

I would have appreciated that you make these reverts. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:06, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

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Ways to improve Rastislav (Gont)

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Welcome to Wikipedia and thanks for creating Rastislav (Gont)! I edit here too, under the username FR30799386 and it's nice to meet you :-)

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Ways to improve David Galván Bermúdez

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List of saints of the Dominican Order moved to draftspace

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