Mborchardt1977

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August 2020

Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to List of dystopian films, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. If you only meant to make a test edit, please use your sandbox for that. Thank you. MarnetteD|Talk 04:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Before adding a category to an article, as you did to The Fifth Element, please make sure that the subject of the article really belongs in the category that you specified according to Wikipedia's categorization guidelines. Categories must also be supported by the article's verifiable content. Categories may be removed if they are deemed incorrect for the subject matter. Thank you. DonIago (talk) 04:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

They are verified by this List of dystopian films page. The Fifth Element is on this list therefore should be categorized as a dystopian film made in the 1990s, should it not?Mborchardt1977 (talk) 05:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:CIRCULAR, other articles on Wikipedia are not sufficient sources. If the entry has its own secondary source, you're welcome to copy it and add it to the article with appropriate text. DonIago (talk) 06:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so if List of dystopian films is not a verified source then how do categories, such as 1980s high school films, get created? There are no sources being sited or verified there. When you go to a bookstore there aren't just signs everywhere stating "Books Here" they categorized by fiction or non-fiction and then broken down even further based on the cover of the book itself (title, publishing date, author, etc.) you don't see the employees needing to verify what's written on the book right? I am not making claims of the film's theme or genre.Mborchardt1977 (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Categories are added based on the text and sources provided within the articles themselves. I thought I was fairly clear in my last reply, but perhaps not. If the entries at the List aren't sourced either, then it's quite a good question as to why they're even listed there. Categorizing a film as dystopian is you yourself making that claim and consequently WP:OR unless you can provide a source that has itself made that claim. DonIago (talk) 20:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

You are, and were, clear. But you are getting upset because I'm not selling you a Big Mac and I'm trying to tell you that you're in a Taco Bell. I'm not the one who categorized these as dystopian. Someone else did. I'm just saying that the film was released within a certain decade is all. The film 'The Fifth Element' was already sited, sourced, and verified on List of dystopian films before I got into all this. I'm just putting it in a category that says it was released in the 1990s. Am I wrong? Check it out.Mborchardt1977 (talk) 00:23, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:CATV, you are wrong to add any category to an article that is not substantiated by text and a reliable source within the article itself. It doesn't matter what's going on anywhere else on Wikipedia, per WP:CIRCULAR. You are also, frankly, "wrong" to have kept pushing at this instead of engaging in discussion per WP:BRD and reaching a WP:CONSENSUS on the best way to proceed. DonIago (talk) 02:37, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

So let me get this straight. The Fifth Element can not be added to a category of 1990s dystopian films because the category itself isn't substantiated by text and a reliable source within the article itself, which would be The Fifth Element, right? No matter that it's substantiated by text and a reliable (so I'm told) source on List of dystopian films?Mborchardt1977 (talk) 03:24, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, as discussed at WP:CIRCULAR, you can't use a Wikipedia article as a "source" for a different article. It doesn't matter what another article says, it matters what the article that you wish to categorize says. It should be easy enough to copy an appropriate source and add in some text supporting the category. Consider it this way: What if you categorize Film X as Dystopian because it's listed at that List, and then it's later removed from that list? What if the List article is deleted? How is anyone looking at the article for Film X supposed to know that you used the List as the basis for your categorization? When it comes to verifiability of categories and other information, articles should be able to stand on their own merits. DonIago (talk) 05:17, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

This is where I'm getting confused. You are telling me a movie can be cited as dystopian, as it is in the List of dystopian films, even though it's not cited, verified, sourced, or referenced anywhere as being dystopian on the main article. And that it's verified place on the list isn't enough to be categorized as dystopian. It needs to be in the main article. So I can just go and use the same reference source that's being sited on the list and add it to the main article, within reason of course. If this is true then the confusing part is why many movies are put into categories where the main articles don't have any mention of such category, for example Action Jackson (1988 film) is in the 1980s chase films category but there is no mention whatsoever that it is a "chase" film. There are many like this. I have been going through each category checking. Seeing this led me to believe that somebody just up and decided it was a chase film and added it.Mborchardt1977 (talk) 00:09, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Just because a movie article is currently categorized in a certain manner doesn't mean it should be; there are probably a lot of inappropriate categorizations for a lot of Wikipedia articles that editors just haven't observed and corrected. And films shouldn't be listed at the List without a proper citation at the List article either; I'm not sure whether you were implying otherwise. With regards to whether a film should be categorized as dystopian, whether it appears at the List article is completely irrelevant. The opposite also applies: a film being categorized in a certain manner doesn't justify its inclusion on a list without sourcing included in the list. If you want to categorize a film as dystopian, add appropriate text and a source. If you want to add the film to the List, provide a proper source for the film's entry on the list. If the article and the List use the same source? Cool. If you get the source by Googling around for it, or reading a book on the subject? Also cool. But stop intermingling the two: a film's categorization and a film's entry on a List article never justify each other; they are both standalone. I'm really running out of ways to explain this more clearly than I feel I already have. DonIago (talk) 05:17, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I see. I was thinking that a list and a category have the same rules when they don't. That clears that up. The other matter is your tone and attitude. Completely uncivil. It's unfortunate that you lack the tact and patience of a person who would be suited for the knowledge that you've borrowed. Maybe one day you will be rendered the same treatment so that you can be enlightened to a more academic solution in the future.Mborchardt1977 (talk) 07:33, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be repeatedly reverting or undoing other editors' contributions at List of dystopian films. Although this may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is known as "edit warring" and is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, as it often creates animosity between editors. Instead of reverting, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.

If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to lose their editing privileges. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, and violating the three-revert rule is very likely to result in loss of your editing privileges. Thank you. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1940s dystopian films

A tag has been placed on Category:1940s dystopian films requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

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This message was automatically delivered by QEDKbot. 13:06, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1950s dystopian films

A tag has been placed on Category:1950s dystopian films requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.

This message was automatically delivered by QEDKbot. 14:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

August 2020

Please stop your disruptive editing.

• If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant noticeboards.
• If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Escape from L.A., you may be blocked from editing. Not sure what part of what I said above isn't clear, but categories added to articles must be supported by sourced text within the article itself, not by pointing to a list article, which violates WP:CIRCULAR. DonIago (talk) 19:03, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Definition of dystopia

According to the Merriam-Webster definition, it's "an imagined world or society in which people lead wretched, dehumanized, fearful lives" (bolding mine). Nazi-occupied Europe was not imaginary, so The Moon Is Down doesn't qualify. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:26, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think you grasp what is happening here. Check out Talk: List of dystopian films and you'll see that I was originally the one cleaning up the List of dystopian films. Then people went crazy and so I stopped and they put the original versions back up. So don't get upset at me. I agree with you.

Reliable sources

Please do not cite or add content from the IMDb. This is a user-generated database, much like Wikipedia itself. Reliable sources need to have a history of fact checking and correcting errors, editorial control, and be staffed by professionals. You can see a non-comprehensive list of sources considered reliable by WikiProject Film at Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Resources. For American films, the AFI Catalog of Feature Films is often a good source to check first. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Even the PRO side of IMDB is unreliable? I tried to do some edits on their pro-pages and was unable to as I was not authorized.Mborchardt1977 (talk) 04:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, because it's still the IMDb, which is a crowd-sourced database. You could raise the issue at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, but the IMDb is pretty a canonical example of an unreliable source. It's explicitly described as such in Wikipedia:Reliable sources itself. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Good to know. Thanks.Mborchardt1977 (talk) 05:30, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

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