Mike H.

His Holiness

Welcome to Wikipedia! if only to note that like me (see the edit history of the popes after Gregory XVI, who seems to be the cutoff for this nonsense) you are one of the innocent, alas. I'm obviously letting your edits sit, but you will have a few determined people descend on you for your reasonable adherence to standard practice (it's the same with other monarchs) and your edits will be reverted.... Like you, I didn't know there had been a decision made by a few people on some obscure page, to disregard custom and the universal practice of encyclopedias, in favor of a curious scheme that doesn't help Wikipedia's image. You'll learn! Best, Bill 19:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I've posted this message on two of the Pope pages you have been reverting so I thought I'd leave it here for you to consider.

There have been several reverts of "His Holiness" on this page by User:Mike H. referring to the fact that this title only applies to the current pope. I have reverted this edit after learning that no, it doesn't only apply to the current Pope, it can apply to all Popes throughout history. Regarding the actual inclusion of this honorific, I refer to the Dalai Lama's page where he is referred to as His Holiness but not when labeled on the page. I think that initially the title should be removed while used later in the article as it would vernacularly or in the titling of pictures, perhaps as a way of resolving this cross-article conflict. Also, maybe we could center this discussion on His Holiness instead of spreading it around to each individual pope?--TheGrza 22:41, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I refer you to the Wikipedida article Style (manner of address), wherein it clearly states "Pope John Paul II was called His Holiness only until his death." -- Regards, Mike 22:10, 14 July 2005 (EDT)

It's quite hopeless, Mike; there's a group of about 2 or 3 people who feel very strongly about all Popes after Gregory XVI; presumably, much less so about Gregory XVI and before. These 2 or 3 people will block and revert endlessly. There are better things to do with one's time; so what if Wikipedia looks foolish? Bill 02:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I understand that the article says that the title leaves after the death of a Pope, but I contacted several Priests and churches to check and none of them had heard anything of the sort. Do you have a citation to show that the title leaves besides that sentence on the Style page? --TheGrza 02:44, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Also, I have been nothing but courteous and sincere in my attempts to resolve this amicably and factually. Please don't post messages around that assume that I'm involved in some attack on you or your opinion. --TheGrza 02:46, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread your post and acted in haste. Do you have any citations for the end of the Holiness title for Popes? --TheGrza 03:17, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Huh? "[P]ost messages around that assume that [you're] involved in some attack on [me] or [my] opinion" ??? Where have I done that? -- Regards, Mike H. 23:03, 14 July 2005 (EDT)

It is Wikipedia policy to use the styles appropriate to a monarchical office when referring to a deceased monarch. That is partly because some monarchical styles have changed in time, so it would offer the chance to indicate what the style was during an individual reign. It does not imply in any way that a deceased individual still holds the style, merely that that was the style used for them in their lifetime. That is why some past popes are referred to as His Holiness. The policy was followed for months until a small band of users began waging edit wars by removing all styles. A compromise was agreed whereby those articles had had their styles added should be left with them, and those that had not yet had them added would not do so, pending a less heated debate on the issue of usage in the future. That is why 20th century and some 19th century popes have styles and others don't, or why modern monarchs but mediævbal monarchs don't. The former had already had styles entered, the latters had not yet, when the edit war erupted and a policy of in effect 'do not disturb' was agreed.

Please stop removing styles. It is agreed that those articles already with them should keep them for the moment. Any attempt to breach the compromise, either by removing styles where it was agreed to leave them in, or install them where it was agreed not to put them in, will simply be reverted every time. All Wikipedians are supposed to follow the agreed naming conventions and manual of style rules, both of which endorse the use of styles in historic articles on hereditary monarchs (kings and queens) and elective monarchs (popes). FearÉIREANNFile:Tricolour.gif\^(caint) 17:19, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

"It is Wikipedia policy...." Where was this agreed on? Bill 18:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

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