User talk:Nableezy/Archive 47

This is an archive of past discussions about User:Nableezy. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 40

←

Archive 45

Annexation

Latest comment: 2 years ago70 comments5 people in discussion

Coming here from Talk:Israel. I was looking at some other comments as well and see you have strong views on the question of annexation (whether for East Jerusalem, Golan or the effectively-annexed settlements).

I did the legal research and wrote a big chunk of our article Annexation, so I feel I have a good sense of what it is. And in addition to what the sources say, I can also confirm that on the ground in Israel everything is made to feel like it is the one country. Drive down Highway 1 and see if it feels like a real border is being crossed. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Annexation is a topic of international law, and the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force is likewise a matter of international law. For the Golan and EJ, Israel has yes effectively annexed those territories, but as a matter of international law they have not, as the acts that did so were ruled null and void and the international community continues to regard each as occupied Palestinian and Syrian territory, not Israeli territory. So saying EJ was annexed is toeing an Israeli POV that says East Jerusalem is in Israel, and it is not. As far as the settlements, Israel has never attempted to claim any of the settlements as its territory or that its civil law applies to the settlements. It applies its civil law to Israeli civilians in the West Bank regardless of where they are. Yes laws related to zoning and whatnot specifically apply to the jurisdiction of the local councils or whatever, but, as B'tselem notes, "the policy of the Israeli government to apply the Israeli Criminal Code to every Israeli citizen and to every Jew who is not an Israeli citizen has created a legal situation which distinguishes between populations according to national origin. Palestinians in the territories are subject to local or military law, and those who commit offenses are tried in local courts and more often in military courts." Further, military law applies to Palestinians within the settlements as well. So the argument that even if Israel has not formally claimed the territory of the settlements they effectively have is both irrelevant and flawed. What Israel does on the ground is one thing, and that should be documented, but how things stand as a matter of international law is another thing. nableezy - 00:54, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. I believe your understanding of annexation is wrong, specifically the sentence: "Israel has yes effectively annexed those territories, but as a matter of international law they have not, as the acts that did so were ruled null and void"

My understanding is that "annexation" is a factual yet illegal event, like assassination. You would not write a sentence "John Wilkes Booth has yes effectively assassinated Lincoln, but as a matter of criminal law he has not, as the act that did so was ruled null and void".

The correct sentence would be "John Wilkes Booth has assassinated Lincoln, which is an illegal act as a matter of criminal law". And in our case: "Israel has annexed those territories, which is an illegal act as a matter of international law"

I base this understanding on all the research I have read on the topic of I/P, and also the generic International Law textbooks that I added to the Annexation article back in 2017, such as Hofmann in the Max Planck Encyclopedia of Public International Law and Rothwell et al in their International Law textbook (I added quotations in those footnotes which are worth reading). I suspect that your understanding is based on the various international declarations that the Israeli annexations are "null and void", e.g. as in UNSCR 497. The question then is what does "null and void" really mean. The wider relevant text of UNSCR 497 is: "Decides that the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect; Demands that Israel, the occupying Power, should rescind forthwith its decision". The clauses I have underlined constitute annexation; that is how they are defined in the literature, and it matches with Hofmann's and Rothwell's definitions. The UN told Israel to rescind the annexation, but of course Israel did not. The UN couldn't force a reversal of the annexation, so instead they simply state that it is "null and void and without international legal effect", which means "yes you have annexed but it does not change your international legal obligations".

Onceinawhile (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

I am trying to find ways of proving that "null and void" doesn't mean what you think it does. Our article on the topic states that null and void means simply "of no legal effect". Not "of no effect". In other words, it happened, but doesn't change anything legally-speaking. The Allies of World War II declared the Anschluss "null and void" too, but there is no doubt that Austria was annexed by Germany.

Perhaps the most convincing thing I can show you is from the International Criminal Court investigation in Palestine. See the 32-page pre-trial submission from the prosecutor here. It mentions "null and void" five times:

Clause 40: (quotation from UNHCR)
Clause 42: "Any act by Israel that would constitute de facto or de jure annexation of parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territory is null and void under international law and does not change the status of the occupied territory nor the protections afforded by IHL and international human rights law to the Palestinians living in it, including their right to self-determination."
Clause 47: "...while Israel claims sovereignty over East Jerusalem and significant parts of West Bank, through its formal annexation of East Jerusalem in 1967 and 1980 and its de facto past and ongoing annexation of parts of the West Bank, such sovereignty claims are null and void and of no effect under international law, which prohibits the acquisition of territory through the use of military force."
Clause 65: "Israel’s formal annexation of East Jerusalem, or de facto annexation of parts of West Bank, also does not alter the composition and integrity of the Occupied Palestinian Territory as they constitute unlawful acts that have been largely deemed null and void and of no legal effect under international law."
Clause 79: "As explained above, Israel’s formal annexation of East Jerusalem, or de facto annexation of parts of West Bank, also does not alter the composition and integrity of the Occupied Palestinian Territory. Such acts are null and void and of no legal effect under international law, and should in no way impede the exercise of the Court’s jurisdiction over the territory."

If you replace the words "null and void" with "of no legal effect" in each of the clauses above, it becomes clear.

Onceinawhile (talk) 11:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps the easiest explanation for "null and void" is "as if it had not occurred". Of course, Israel may write in its laws that which pleases it and then their courts are stuck with implementing it, no matter how foolish it might be as a matter of international law, annexation not being the only area where such has been done. The use of the word "effectively" is only a description of the peculiar way in which Israel carried out the annex, which is the argument Lustick made, not correct, not proper, but effective all the same as a practical matter. You can't be nearly pregnant.Selfstudier (talk) 13:26, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

The resolution denouncing the Golan Law said "Decides that the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction andadministration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect;". That without international legal effect is the important bit. That the action by Israel did not change the status of the Golan as sovereign Syrian territory occupied by Israel. You make, in my view, a very basic own-goal in using "annexation", because what follows from that is that these places are "in Israel", and they are not. nableezy - 14:32, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

International law says Israeli actions will be treated as if they had not occurred or "without international legal effect" if you prefer. It doesn't matter what you call the Israeli actions, "Golan Law" or "Israeli annexation of the Golan". In the same way as we have Israeli occupation of the West Bank we could equally have Israeli occupation of the Golan for the internationally recognized position (we do have Israeli-occupied territories). I saw versions of this argument when we had that lengthy discussion (still unresolved) over the Jordanian annexation/occupation, the Israelis like to say they are only doing what Jordan did but the situation is quite different.Selfstudier (talk) 14:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Of course it matters, and I think Huldra and yall are also making an error with the Jordanian articles. Jordan did occupy the West Bank, the annexation was rejected by the Arab League and nearly every sovereign state on the planet. And I dont think we should be espousing a minority view, that the West Bank was in Jordan, or that EJ is in Israel, that sources largely reject. And I think that when you all start using terms like "annexed" you very much are promoting a minority view, a very pro-Israel one at that. nableezy - 15:14, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

I am not often called pro Israeli :) In fact, that's a first, hah. Anyway, I don't agree that the mere use of the word annexation here means a territory is "in Israel" other than from the point of view of Israel, I certainly don't use the word in that way and I am a little bit surprised that you would. The principal difference with the Jordanian is that in some sense at least, the local population went along with the annex (called "unification" !) (obviously not the case with WB/Golan) and there is no UN resolution dispensing with the annex probably because the UK supported it and they had, still have, a veto. If one wants to take the position that the Jordanian (an Arab state?) annex was illegitimate, then to be consistent, one also has to take the position that the creation of Israel (a Jewish state?) was illegitimate, both being annexes of Palestine, lots of water under the bridge since then. Kattan (p14) is a good source Selfstudier (talk) 16:33, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Technically the creation of Israel on boundaries outside of the partition plan's boundaries was illegitimate, but it was accepted by the international community and as such all of the territory gained in 1948 by Israel was accepted as Israeli sovereign territory. Jordan's purported annexation of the West Bank into its territory was not afforded that recognition, so that illegitimacy was maintained. And I think you also allow for the whataboutism argument that the West Bank is not currently occupied because Israel and Jordan both had the same claim to the territory and if Jordan was not occupying it then neither is Israel. I dont understand why people are hesitant to call that a Jordanian occupation. It was, plainly. nableezy - 19:11, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There are two issues here:

(1) Whether an annexation is an objective fact or an annexation is a subjective judgement on which multiple views are possible. I painstakingly showed above that it is the former. Nableezy if you disagree with this, please could you explain. And if you agree with my analysis above, I would appreciate if you could confirm.

(2) Whether the primary focus across all these articles should be on the de facto situation or the de jure situation. I understand your view here, and it is worthy of debate.

These two issues are separate, so can we please try not to talk about them both at the same time.

Nableezy the way you reference minority view is talking at cross purposes. Describing the de facto situation is not a minority view; there is only one perspective on the de facto. On the de jure position, I am absolutely certain that you, Self and I all subscribe to the majority view. Highlighting the de facto position over the de jure position has nothing to do with minority/majority view or Israeli/Palestinian view. It comes down to whether you think de facto or de jure is more important to readers.

Onceinawhile (talk)

You quote from the Wall case: Any act by Israel that would constitute de facto or de jure annexation of parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territory is null and void under international law and does not change the status of the occupied territory nor the protections afforded by IHL and international human rights law to the Palestinians living in it, including their right to self-determination.

that would constitute ... is null and void ... does not change the status of the occupied territory. That is saying that acts that would otherwise be annexations are "null and void" (the plain meaning being vacated as though they never occurred) and that the status of the territories is as it was. It is either occupied territory or it is annexed to Israel, it cannot be both. And yes, of course describing what is disputed to be an annexation as an annexation is a POV. Because there are other POVs that dispute it. And the settlements bit is even more out there, Israel has not even purported to claim any of the settlements to be in its territory, but you would describe them as annexed. With no sourcing that Ive seen that supports that. If the Golan Heights are annexed to Israel then it is not sovereign Syrian territory, which the vast majority of sources describe it as. If EJ is annexed to Israel it is not occupied Palestinian territory, which the vast majority of sources refer to it as. And yes, claiming something that is disputed by sources is indeed a POV. nableezy - 22:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

It is either occupied territory or it is annexed to Israel, it cannot be both. This is the point of difference, I think it can be both, depending on what legal regime pertains. It is annexed to Israel under Israeli law (Israeli courts recognize it) and remains occupied in international law (ICJ does not recognize it for WB and UNSC does not for Golan). I don't see that as a contradiction myself.

The non EJ settlements are a little bit different, these days often described as a "creeping annexation", in any case the settlements themselves are illegal and their commissioning at scale a likely war crime as well as being located in occupied territory. Here I do dislike the "pipelining" terminology, it is in fact similar to an annex but not all at once, thus "creeping", the territory is taken and Israeli law applied only to one specific group (not sure if it applies to any resident but there cannot be very many that are not Jewish). The settlements are "worse" than an annex in many ways.Selfstudier (talk) 22:49, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

It is worth reading the whole of the resolution for the Golan:

"BEARING IN MIND General Assembly Resolution 36/226 B of 17 December 1981, RECALLING General Assembly Resolution 3314 (XXIX) of 14 December 1974, which defines an act of aggression as the invasion or attack by the armed forces of a state of the territory of another state, or any military occupation, however temporary, resulting from such invasion or attack, or any annexation by the use of force of the territory of another state or part thereof,

DETERMINING that the continued occupation of the Syrian Golan Heights since June 1967 and its annexation by Israel on 14 December 1981 constitute a continuing threat to international peace and security,

So this even says "its annexation by Israel on 14 December 1981" before going on to discuss how member states should seek to nullify that and to say that it is of no legal effect. Selfstudier (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Selfstudier is right. Nableezy I am sorry but you are mistaken. The cannot be both statement that Self highlighted in green is incorrect, as Self rightly points out. I also spent a lot of time researching and writing the military occupation article. Military occupation is something that comes with a lot of explicit rules under international law; when I/P legal commentators say that occupation is ongoing in EJ/Golan or Gaza for that matter, what they are saying is that the international legal requirements continue. It is legal jargon with a different meaning than a literal reading of the words "ongoing military occupation" might suggest. This is not the same with the term annexation; that is just a description of a factual action taken, and is usually considered illegal.

Look at the Status column (which I added a few years years ago) at List of military occupations#Contemporary occupations. See for example the quote in footnote 17: "An occupied territory may also be illegally annexed"

Another incorrect statement you made was That is saying that acts that would otherwise be annexations are "null and void" (the plain meaning being vacated as though they never occurred). As I wrote above, per the article "null and void", this is a legal term and we should not be making subjective interpretations of its plain meaning: "null and void" means "of no legal effect"; that is not the same as saying they never occurred.

Onceinawhile (talk) 23:34, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

If the above isn't convincing enough, consider your earlier statement that So saying EJ was annexed is toeing an Israeli POV. The status of Crimea is equivalent to the status of EJ (per footnote 17 of the list article I linked above). Please go find a selection of news sources who you consider to be anti-Russian in stance, and see how they describe Crimea.

I hope this is now enough confirmation that annexation is simply a fact on the ground, and not a matter of POV. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Crimea doesnt have a UN resolution specifically calling its annexation null and void. Of no international legal effect is the same as saying never occurred according to international law. Annexation and occupation being, again, matters of international law. And yes, I am aware of the changes you have made on this subject across a range of articles, and I disagree with them. You keep saying things like this is just a factual description as though you can decide what POVs are factual and what are not, but just to demonstrate that it is in fact a POV see for example these back to back articles: [1], [2]. See for example Lustick saying that EJ has not been annexed by Israel even by its own law ([3]). You are very much making POV statements and claiming them to be facts, and then determinin that anything that disagrees with your view is counterfactual. Sorry, but I disagree with both the action and the result here. And yes, by saying annexed, you are saying in Israel. There is no definition of annexed to Israel that does not mean within its sovereign territory. nableezy - 00:08, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

In order to help bring the conversation to landing, would you mind confirming what points I have made in this discussion that you do agree with? And ideally comment on the sources I have brought. It will help us narrow the divide and identify where the disagreement really lies. From my side, I am carefully reading the three sources you have brought and will comment (I need a bit of time to do them justice, so will not address them until I have done so).

Your statement about Crimea is wrong: See United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262: ...the referendum... having no validity, cannot form the basis for any alteration of the status of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea...; Calls upon all States, international organizations and specialized agencies not to recognize any alteration of the status of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol on the basis of the above-mentioned referendum and to refrain from any action or dealing that might be interpreted as recognizing any such altered status. This is saying null and void in a different form of words.

Re your statement Of no international legal effect is the same as saying never occurred according to international law. Annexation and occupation being, again, matters of international law. I believe this is where we are not seeing eye to eye. I have tried to explain this nuance above, so I will not repeat myself, but it would allow us to close the gap if you could engage with the points I have made above. In the meantime, let me try another way: whether a military occupation is ongoing is primarily a matter of International law, but whether an annexation has occurred is primarily a matter of national law. Can we agree on this statement?

Your final sentence is absolutely 100% wrong: (There is no definition of annexed to Israel that does not mean within its sovereign territory.) You and I have both now brought sources which prove that this sentence is incorrect. Under international law, annexation is illegal and does not confer sovereignty. In order to be illegal it has to first exist! You appear to believe that annexation doesn’t exist - there are no sources which state this.

Onceinawhile (talk) 08:47, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

No UNSC resolution, as those actually have legal effect. And I think you knew I meant that. Israel performed an act, purportedly annexing the Golan or EJ, and that act was ruled to have no international effect and vacated as a matter of international law. You are transforming the action in to a present status, when that status was explicitly rejected in UNSC resolutions and by an overwhelming number of sources. nableezy - 18:47, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

A lot of the problem has been caused by Israel's deliberate policy of ambiguity whereby acts were carried out to give the Israeli government the rights of a sovereign according to Israeli law, while simultaneously allowing Israel to deny that annexation had taken place (as Israel declared to the UN in both 1967 and 1981). I don't agree that annexation is something to be written as a mere fact on the ground, and it isn't true that legal experts (all) treat it as such. Consider Eyal Benvenisti's description in "International Law of Occupation": As in the case of the 1967 application of the law to East Jerusalem, the text of the 1981 law was vague enough to permit the interpretation that the measure did not affect the formal annexation of the area into Israel. Nevertheless, the measure was internationally received as a purported annexation, and consequently was condemned by the UN Security Council as "null and void". Note, not "received as annexation" but "received as purported annexation". Benvenisti also uses the same phrase "purported annexation" in regard to Jordan and WB in 1950. Writing "Israel annexed the Golan" can be read as a charge against Israel (that it did more than it claims), but it can also be read as an acceptance of annexation as an Israeli POV. Have pity on our readers who don't understand the nuances and qualify the word "annexation" so that it can't be read as a fait accompli. In brief, I agree with Nableezy. Zero^talk 06:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Zero. I agree with everything you said except your final four words – your points are not what Nableezy is arguing. Your post says that Israel tries to be ambiguous about whether its actions have constituted annexation, which is absolutely correct. I can't remember whether Israel has ever formally denied that EJ and Golan underwent annexation, but they have held firm to a policy of not confirming it. Israel doesn't want to state that it has annexed anything, because they know annexation is illegal. The international community is clear that they have annexed it, and unilateral annexation can have no legal effect under international law. So in simple terms Israel's position is "no annexation" and the international community's position is "annexation". Nableezy has stated the opposite - that "saying EJ was annexed is toeing an Israeli POV". See below for a summary. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

That's a part I have some trouble with, that just using the word annexation somehow means "Israeli POV", if anything, it's the opposite, using the expression "Golan Law" (or reunification/Jerusalem Law) is Israeli POV (ditto unification for the Jordanian). The expression "creeping annexation" might well be considered uncomplimentary by some yet according to the argument being made, suggesting that it is a creeping annex is Israeli POV.

An occupation is supposed to be temporary based on military exigencies but if there is no demonstrable intent to leave, then what is that? The Israelis may bob and weave, deny, dispute, dissemble and dissimulate but the fact cannot be avoided for ever. Selfstudier (talk) 09:39, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

		Israel has annexed?
		Yes	No
Israel has successfully applied sovereignty	Yes	Noone	Israeli Government position
Israel has successfully applied sovereignty	No	International consensus	Nableezy (and possibly Ian Lustick)

Lustick (2020) "Either way, as long as the one-state reality that has already been created by 53 years of creeping annexation is not recognized..." I have taken this a little out of context, the article is interesting, he also refers to "Israel’s so-called "annexation" of East Jerusalem in 1967, the legislative decoration it added in 1980, and the construction of massive Israeli neighborhoods in the Eastern sections of the expanded municipality..." and speaks about "pseudo annexation" and "real annexation". Even if it is interesting, I don't think there is much in there by way of enlightenment and the entire thing reads like an argument for one state rather than two.Selfstudier (talk) 10:10, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Another decent ref p 52 "International law today has more to say about the legal consequences of an annexation than about what qualifies as one, but it was not always so..." Selfstudier (talk) 10:29, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

As to whether Israel has ever formally denied annexation, letter from Foreign Minister to UN Sec General quoted in S/8052 (10 July 1967): The term 'annexation' used by supporters of the resolution is out of place. The measures adopted relate to the integration of Jerusalem in the administrative and municipal spheres, and furnish a legal basis for the protection of the Holy Places in Jerusalem. I'm sure I've also seen a similar official claim re Golan. Anyway, I think this discussion misses the point, or what should be the point. Are we trying give an amateur masterclass on international law or are we trying to agree on wording that is the least confusing and misleading to readers? Zero^talk 10:50, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

We cannot agree on wording until we agree what each individual word means. Onceinawhile (talk) 12:02, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I think we should follow sources and explain those to the reader if needs be, what we usually do, right? We are speaking about 3 "effective annexes", Jordanian, EJ, Golan (leaving the non EJ settlements out of it) and two of them are called annexes in their titles and one is not. That could be considered misleading to readers unless there is some sourced explanation why that should be. Selfstudier (talk) 11:09, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Amnesty report assumes 67 annex as a fact, frequently throughout, for example:

p 41 "In 1980, Israel unilaterally (and unlawfully under international law) formalized its 1967 annexation of East Jerusalem, including Palestinian parts of the city and a surrounding area of about 70km2 that belonged to about 28 Palestinian villages."

p 76 "Israel has administered these territories in different ways. It has unilaterally (and unlawfully under international law) annexed East Jerusalem, and the Israeli military has governed the rest of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as occupied territories"

Although the report does not cover the Golan, there is:

p37 (note 3) " 1981, Israel adopted the Golan Heights Law, which extends Israeli jurisdiction and law to the occupied Golan Heights. The international community has condemned this "annexation" and the Golan Heights is acknowledged to be occupied territory where international humanitarian law is applicable, with Israel recognized as the occupying power with responsibilities towards the Syrian population outlined under international humanitarian law and international human rights law".

Annexation in quotes there.

There are some mentions of Jordan but afaics only the expression Jordanian rule is used. Selfstudier (talk) 14:22, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

When one expert carefully writes "purported annexation" where another writes "effective annexation" and yet another writes just "annexation", it is clear that agreeing on the meaning of individual words is not within our reach. I have to go back to the task of conveying information to ordinary readers. If we write "Israel annexed the Golan but the rest of the world considers that illegal" it will be understood as "the Golan is part of Israel but the rest of the world doesn't like it" (exactly how an Israeli nationalist would put it). Unless we really want readers to hear us as affirming that the Golan is part of Israel we must not write it like that. Technical meaning in international law be damned. Zero^talk 14:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Why write "Israel annexed the Golan but the rest of the world considers that illegal". That's not the way I would write it, instead pinch Amnesty wording "Israel unilaterally and unlawfully under international law, annexed the Golan" Selfstudier (talk) 14:31, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

And then it was ruled null and void. Israel performed an action, it was judged illegal and as a matter of international law vacated, but you would still say that the territory is annexed. nableezy - 18:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

The Golan Law is Israeli law. You and I may not approve of it but is their law all the same and their judges act on it. The Amnesty sentence for the Golan continues "the Golan Heights is acknowledged to be occupied territory where international humanitarian law is applicable, with Israel recognized as the occupying power with responsibilities towards the Syrian population outlined under international humanitarian law and international human rights law". As usual, Israel disputes that, along with everything else.Selfstudier (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware it is Israeli law. And that law was ruled to have no international legal effect and the status of the Golan remained unchanged as sovereign Syrian territory held under belligerent occupation by Israel. Israel performed a verb. That verb was ruled to have no change on the adjective that applies to the Golan, those being occupied or annexed. nableezy - 18:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Incidentally, the John Wilkes Booth example does not match the situation very well. Closer is "Once went through a marriage ceremony but it was ruled null and void because he was already married". Even a lawyer would say "the marriage is illegal", but really they mean that it was the act of trying to create the marriage that was illegal; the marriage itself was not actually created, as Once would find out if he tried to get divorced. If we conflate a state of being (a married state; a holding of sovereignty over a territory) with an act to create that state (a marriage ceremony; an annexation law), we get into logical confusion. I think this example is a perfect match to "Any act by Israel that would constitute de facto or de jure annexation of parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territory is null and void under international law and does not change the status of the occupied territory". It is the "act" not the "annexation" that is null and void by the plain meaning of this sentence; a change of sovereignty doesn't actually happen as is confirmed by "does not change the status". Good night, all. Zero^talk 14:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I had been expecting this argument, which I am sorry to say is incorrect. I had expected "the purchase is illegal", which would be the same.

In those two cases there is only one set of relevant laws; the law of the specific country. Here there are two.

The annexations took place under Israeli law. The illegality is a matter of international law.

Onceinawhile (talk) 15:26, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

They were not simply illegal, they were vacated as a matter of international law. And when you write the Golan is annexed, as an adjective and not simply Israel purportedly annexed the Golan as a verb you are in fact saying the Golan is in Israel. And you again fail to acknowledge that there are in fact significant viewpoints that object to saying that any of these places are annexed, proclaiming your position as objective fact and all others as counterfactual. Yes, you can find sources that say EJ is annexed. And I can find sources that say it is not. That means you may not say on Wikipedia as a matter of fact that it is annexed. And I will object every time somebody, including you, does so. nableezy - 18:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I hear you. Can you please confirm which of the various points made you do agree with? A lot of information has been provided and acknowledgement would be appreciated. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:49, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree that there are sources that say as a verb Israel annexed the Golan or EJ (do not for the settlements at all, that still is a non-starter entirely for me), but I think the correct phrasing would be purportedly annexed or effectively annexed. I do not agree that you can describe the Golan or EJ as annexed, you can describe the actions taken through the Golan Law and the Jerusalem Law as annexations, but that you cannot describe the territories as annexed. And given that both actions were ruled null and void and without international legal effect and that the status of the territories remained unchanged, being occupied Syrian and Palestinian territories respectively, you may not describe those territories as though their status has changed, eg as annexed. nableezy - 18:54, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Saying they were not annexed under Israeli law is a fringe position, mostly proposed by Israeli propagandists; the mainstream position holds that Israel annexed the territories under their laws. Saying that under international law such annexation has no legal effect, is also the mainstream position, and we agree here. Our debate is basically a conflict of laws question, re whether international law can “vacate” national law; you have made that suggestion but provided no proof. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:57, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Describing the status of a territory as annexed or occupied is a matter of international law, not Israeli law. nableezy - 19:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Source please. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:36, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

And for the record, why exactly do you object to effectively annexed or purportedly annexed? Why is that even a problem for you? nableezy - 19:01, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I object to lack of clarity. Our duty is to help our readers understand. The words effectively or purportedly are fine so long as we are able to then explain what this grey area looks like. At the moment we still seem to disagree on that.

I also think a word like purportedly is giving credence to the Israeli propagandist nonsense that it was not an annexation under Israeli law. It would help this conversation if you would clarify if you agree that under Israeli law these places are annexed. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:36, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

It is not propaganda to say that the laws were specifically crafted to allow for Israeli officials to deny an annexation took place, largely to avoid even stronger censure and possible sanctions. I think effectively annexed is correct in an Israeli specific context as well. And I do not see how there is a lack of clarity there, in fact I think you are introducing that by using "annexed" as though it does not have any meaning under international law and only Israeli law. nableezy - 23:03, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

The only difference between us is that you may believe that International Law can override Israeli Law, i.e. if something is illegal in the former then it doesn’t exist in the latter. I believe that is incorrect. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:13, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I have not said anything of the sort. What I have said is describing the status of the territory as annexed or occupied is an international law topic, and that status was not changed by Israel's purported annexations. They remained occupied Syrian (Golan) and Palestinian (EJ) territory. nableezy - 23:16, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I acknowledge you believe that describing the status of the territory as annexed… is an international law topic; I have tried above to show you where this is mistaken. Could you please show me a source which supports this position re annexation? Onceinawhile (talk) 23:34, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I suppose one could phrase it like that but I would simply prefer to say that an occupier cannot legally annex under international law. Since Res 242, oft repeated, inadmissability of...by force, blah blah. Saying it can't stop it happening though (the annexor just says I don't care, I'm doing it anyway) and then it is a question of what happens next, is it a Kuwait or..what?23:42, 26 February 2022 (UTC) Selfstudier (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. Crimea is the best analogy. Does Nableezy really think that Russia did not annex Crimea? Onceinawhile (talk) 23:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

You are again missing the distinction between the action and the outcome. Does Russia assert Crimea is part of its sovereign territory, has it purportedly annexed Crimea? Yes. Is Crimea annexed to Russia and not widely regarded as occupied Ukrainian territory? No. And you are again missing the difference in a UNSC resolution declaring the status Crimea as unchanged prior to the acts of annexation. As in here, yes Israel effectively annexed, and some sources will just say annexed, as a verb EJ and the Golan. Are they annexed to Israel as a result? No. They remain occupied territory, not annexed to Israel (meaning Israeli territory). Which is why sources will say it has been de facto annexed to Israel or effectively annexed to Israel (eg Playfair, Internaitonal Law and the Administration of the Occupied territories pp 156-7). Do you really dispute that most sources describe these territories as effectively annexed or de facto annexed to Israel and not simply annexed to Israel? nableezy - 00:13, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Most sources say just “annexed” re EJ and Golan. The term “effectively annexed” is used more often for the (other) WB settlements. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:24, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Neither part of that is true. It is an oddity for a source to call the settlements annexed in any way whatsoever, they may say that things are headed that way, but no, that is not true. Neither is most sources just say annexed. nableezy - 01:42, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Neither of us have taken the time to prove whether we have “most” sources on our side yet. I will try to think of a way. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:36, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

It would be interesting to try and do a count, my impression is that many modern sources would just say it was annexed and then point out the illegality. Qualifiers don't alter the facts in any meaningful way. The annexed can't tell the difference between being effectively annexed and annexed, they still have to deal with Israeli laws and courts either way.Selfstudier (talk) 00:28, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Amnesty again "In the context of the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT), "annexation" means extending Israeli law to areas which are recognized as occupied and treating them as part of the territory of Israel." Denying this is the case seems untenable (quacks like a duck), there are Israeli courts rendering judgements in the OPT, Sheikh Jarrah for instance. Yes, the international community has demanded that all these measures be rescinded but it hasn't happened so far. Selfstudier (talk) 22:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with "effectively" because the sources differ on precisely what is needed for something to be an annex. These days people tend to be more concerned with substance over form so if it looks like an annex then it will probably get treated like one.Selfstudier (talk) 19:00, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I wonder if this will help: Monism and dualism in international law. Israel is (of course) a dualist country (I can share sources confirming this if needed). Your contention that something being invalid in international law means it didn’t happen under Israeli law is provably wrong in this context. That is not how things work in a dualist system. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:24, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

This is the second time youve attributed to me an argument I have not made, and this time it is after I specifically said I am not saying that. See where I said I have not said anything of the sort up above and kindly do not attribute to me arguments I have not made. nableezy - 01:44, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I don’t know how else to read statements like this: Is Crimea annexed to Russia and not widely regarded as occupied Ukrainian territory? No…… EJ and the Golan. Are they annexed to Israel as a result? No. They remain occupied territory, not annexed to Israel (meaning Israeli territory).

Crimea is annexed to Russia under Russian law.

Golan is annexed to Israel under Israeli law.

On the other hand, take settlements which have been built. They are illegal under international law. The settlements exist, despite being illegal under international law.

You are trying to say something about how International Law interacts with Russian or Israeli law but are avoiding being specific so please excuse me if I am struggling to understand.

Onceinawhile (talk) 07:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

No, I am completely ignoring local law as it does not matter for discussing the status of the territories under international law. Russia performed a verb, it did not modify the adjective that applies to Crimea (well debatable because there is some recognition of it, but that is just one of the differences here that you gloss over). nableezy - 15:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Of course nobody doubts that Israel's actions were accomplished by means of laws and proclamations under Israeli domestic law. But that doesn't alter the fact that occupation and annexation are (also) issues under international law. At best there is a conflict between domestic and international law (which is a common situation in the Israeli context). You (Once) wish to favor the domestic aspect in your wording at the expense of the international aspect. Nobody will get it. Your explanation of "null and void" above, incidentally, is wrong. It does not mean "you did it but it does not change your international legal obligations". It is a formal legal concept that means roughly "what you attempted had no actual effect". ICJ was saying that under international law, no annexation took place despite Israeli actions. Zero^talk 01:56, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I don’t wish to favor the domestic over the international. I wish to state both. I am very happy to emphasize international over domestic. I simply find it wrong to pretend to ourselves that the annexation didn’t happen under Israeli law on the basis of […I haven’t been given a source yet…]

Re ICJ, please could you bring a quote?

PS – we seem to have a different understanding of what annexation is and/or what international law is. I believe your final sentence is no different from saying "…under international law, no settlements were built despite Israeli actions." I hope this explains why this whole thing jars with me.

Onceinawhile (talk) 07:43, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Your contention that something being invalid in international law means it didn’t happen under Israeli law is provably wrong in this context. That is not how things work in a dualist system.Once

It is a formal legal concept that means roughly "what you attempted had no actual effect". ICJ was saying that under international law, no annexation took place despite Israeli actions.Zero

I believe your final sentence is no different from saying "…under international law, no settlements were built despite Israeli actions." I hope this explains why this whole thing jars with me. Once

Once. The distinction others are making is elementary, and you consistently miss it. Annexation is a matter of local law, and has nothing to do with practices of rule and settlement except in retroactive vindications bvy Israel that it procedes according to its own laws (well it doesn't actually). International law states a principle, from which it follows that Israel's practices, unless they conform to the principle, have no legal basis. How you derive the idea that someone here is asserting settlements were not built because international law denies their legitimacy, in annexed territory or otherwise, is totally obscure and unusual. Stand back a few hours, and then read the thread slowly.Nishidani (talk) 09:33, 27 February 2022 (UTC).

Hi Nish, thank you – I was hoping you would come to help us out of this mess.

There is something missing in this conversation overall – we all don’t seem to be able to hear each other. Personally I think this is because legal language is being used too loosely, and perhaps we have different understandings of what international law is. I am certain that international law cannot annex or un-annex, just as it cannot build or un-build settlements. It simply is about recognition (and validity vis a vis other international treaties); international law simply says that neither the annexation nor the settlements are a recognized part of Israel.

The relevance of this all is that:

Nabs believes that saying “Israel has annexed…” is unwittingly accepting propaganda, whereas I believe it is a simple fact just like “Israel has built settlements”. Both of which are illegal and have no validity in international law.
I believe that saying it is “effectively” or “purportedly” annexed is unwittingly accepting propaganda, supporting spurious claims that Israel’s actions do not amount to illegal annexation.

All we need to resolve this is to use a more nuanced set of words.

Onceinawhile (talk) 10:13, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I think you are again ignoring the difference between describing Israeli actions, the verb, and the status of the territory, the adjective. Israel effectively annexed these territories, verb, but they are not annexed as Israeli territory, adjective. They remain occupied Syrian/Palestinian territory. Not annexed to Israel. nableezy - 15:55, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

We all agree that annex is illegal under international law even if Israel says it's legal under their law or makes some other minority argument to that effect.

We all agree that Israeli actions produce real effects on the ground, it is part of their intent but it is not taking Israeli POV to say so or describe these effects, if the word "annex" is the only problem (is it?) then we may use some long winded version, "extending Israeli law to areas which are recognized as occupied and treating them as part of the territory of Israel." (Amnesty) or "With Israeli “administration, law, and jurisdiction” applied to this area [EJ]" (Lustick) or one could refer to the "inadmissability of the acquisition of territory" by force (242 and through 2334).(lots of sources). While there may be minor points of difference these all amount to illegal annexation.

A part we have only touched on is intent to annex rather than annex, this is what "creeping annexation", establishing settlements, dispossession in general is all about, the argument being what can all those actions mean other than an intent to annex? The argument is nowadays made that this constitutes de facto annexation.

Any wording that covers these points is fine with me, I would rather use sources than make stuff up.Selfstudier (talk) 11:50, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Once, (1) you yourself brought the ICJ quotation. (2) Nobody here, and certainly not me, asserted that annexation didn't occur under Israeli law because the ICJ (and UNSC) ruled that the annexation was null and void under international law. "Illegal" and "null and void" are not the same legal concepts. "Illegal" means something is contrary to law, while "null and void" means that an action or thing intended to cause an effect either didn't cause that effect or now doesn't have that effect. (There are two versions, think of a contract that is null and void from the beginning because one of the signatories was unqualified to sign it, or a contract that becomes null and void when one of the signatories violates an essential clause.) In the case of settlements, the ICJ and the UNSC declared them illegal, not null and void, so that analogy is invalid. Zero^talk 12:09, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Status of territories occupied by Israel in 1967 How about we take up residence there? The current status section could be improved. For Golan it says "a move that has been described as an annexation." (unsourced). Selfstudier (talk) 13:08, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

It's just a verbal problem. 'Israel has declared the territory annexed'/'Israel passed a law asserting the territory is annexed to that state' etc. By declare/assert etc., it is made clear this is a unilateral act whose status is 'subjective', i.e., (almost) uniquely peculiar to that state's position.Nishidani (talk) 13:13, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I propose to go further and avoid the word "annex" in summary statements. We have found that sources can be found to assign "annexed" to either mean "brought under sovereignty" or "asserted to be under sovereignty". Instead, we can avoid that issue while adding precision by using the concept of sovereignty directly. For example (draft), "Israel extended its domestic law over the Golan Heights, an action which is usually considered an assertion of sovereignty. The international community holds Israel's actions to be illegal and considers that sovereignty remains with Syria." Zero^talk 08:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi Zero, FYI we moved the discussion to Talk:Status of territories occupied by Israel in 1967. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:58, 28 February 2022 (UTC)