User talk:Nardog/2023

Battles over rhotic IPA transcription

Hiya! Repeatedly throughout my time on WP, users seem bent on removing the symbol <r> in IPAc-en transcriptions where we have community-established conventions (for example, insisting /ɑːr/ should be replaced with /ɑː/ on an article with a British subject). Are you aware if we have any fast and easy policy pages where we could helpfully point these users towards? It's tiring to repeat the same battles over and over again. Any help is appreciated! Wolfdog (talk) 22:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: MOS:RHOTIC. Nardog (talk) 12:08, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Nardog, but that link redirects to an MoS section that I've already tried (and failed) to use to persuade the unconvinced editors. Thanks for the try! Wolfdog (talk) 23:12, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, then they're wrong. ;) "Then you have to use {{IPA-all}}, not {{IPAc-en}}" is what I usually say next in that situation. Nardog (talk) 23:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

"Thandiwe"

Hi,

By "full vowel", are you referring to the "i:" phoneme? To my ear, the sound is closer to the unstressed "i" of "happy". The article previously gave an erroneous pronunciation with the stress on the second syllable, and I think the stressed "i:" is a relic of that error.

Best wishes, Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 11:14, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

As explained in Help:IPA/English#cite_note-i-u-45, /i/ stands for a situation where conservative speakers have /ɪ/ and most speakers nowadays have /iː/ in a prevocalic or morpheme-final position. The second vowel in Thandiwe, as far as I'm aware, is neither prevocalic, morpheme-final, nor pronounced alternatively with /ɪ/. Nardog (talk) 12:07, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not sure that the footnote is trying to convey quite what you suggest. My reading of it is that /i/ represents a sound between /i:/ and /ɪ/, and the precise location on that continuum will vary with accent, "closer to /iː/ in accents with happy tensing ... and to /ɪ/ in others". The "i" of "Thandiwe" isn't strictly prevocalic, but to my ear the "i" is neither a full /iː/, nor an /ɪ/. We're also talking about an African name (meaning "beloved") pronounced by an English speaker, so the question of whether or not the "i" is morpheme-final isn't straightforward. How would you transcribe "happiness" (edit: or "handiness")? The pronunciations given here use /i/, and - again, to my ear - the sound is close to the sound of the "i" of "Thandiwe". Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:16, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:DIAPHONEMIC means that /i/ means "this vowel is necessarily pronounced as /ɪ/ by those who pronounce happy with /ɪ/", which isn't substantiated by the source. All unstressed vowels are shorter than stressed ones (as noted at the end of Help:IPA/English#Key), so you have to ask why the key offers (i.e. {{IPAc-en}} permits) ⟨i⟩ and ⟨u⟩, in particular, without the length mark but not other tense vowels (⟨ɑ, e, o, ɔ⟩). The answer is that ⟨i, u⟩ are historical artifacts devised for notational convenience. See Happy tensing for more. Nardog (talk) 06:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

OneClickArchiver

Hi, I installed User:Evad37/OneClickArchiver in my common.js and tried to use it at WP:ANI. It appended the ANI section to an archive but then hung, meaning it did not remove the section from ANI itself. I've undone the archive edit and uninstalled the script. I know people use the script, so I'm wondering why it didn't work. As you may remember, I'm very ignorant when it comes to scripts, so I'm hoping you can help me or at least point me to the right place. Evad37 hasn't edited in months, so I can't ask them. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:57, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this script, so I suggest you consult a forum like WP:VPT and see if others have the same issue. My hunch though is that it would have worked if you'd just waited or it's due to your computer's capacity, given ANI is a fairly large page. Nardog (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I did wait a good bit, but thanks for the advice. What I was going to archive I'm no longer interested in archiving, so I think I'll continue to do without the script.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:19, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Barnstar for excellent scripting

		The Scripting Barnstar
		This Scripting Barnstar is awarded to User:Nardog for outstanding work creating the script RefRenamer, enabling users for the first time to convert opaque numeric ref names generated by Visual Editor into reasonable reference names. This script addresses a problem that was and is a huge thorn in the side of many editors, and makes our work much easier and faster as a result. Thanks! Mathglot (talk) 07:06, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

"Out of the Blue (upcoming film)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Out of the Blue (upcoming film) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 February 28 § Out of the Blue (upcoming film) until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 18:03, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Editor Retention/Editor of the Week/Recipient user box

I noticed that you've edited this page in the past. I have the Editor of the Week user box on my user page and there's now a nasty big red-link instead of a link to the nomination page (or whatever). So something is wrong with the code and I don't know what. Could you please take a look and maybe fix it? I've also left this note on the last couple of editors who've edited this userbox. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 03:45, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

You can see it at User:Shearonink#Userboxen. Shearonink (talk) 03:49, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

The date was off by one. Nardog (talk) 03:53, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

YOU ARE AWESOME. Thank you for fixing that. Shearonink (talk) 04:57, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Icelandic rn

Re Stjórn, yeah, it looks odd but Icelandic adds a t to the rn consonant cluster at the end of a word after a vowel, so pronounced /rtn/ despite being spelled rn. This page talks a bit about it (scroll down). —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 23:06, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Icelandic orthography indicates it should be [stjoutn̥] or [stjourtn̥]. Pinging Þjarkur to make sure. Nardog (talk) 23:15, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I believe you're right. I've updated Stjórn... —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 12:51, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

John Dudgeon

May I ask you why you removed the hatnote in John Dudgeon? As stated in the article, Elspeth Dudgeon once used the male name "John Dudgeon" when she played a male role. --saebou (talk) 03:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I had missed that. Restored. Nardog (talk) 03:38, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Technical Barnstar

thx a lot for the script! it works great! i copied it to c:User:RZuo/CopyCodeBlock.js and made some changes. i'm a noob in coding, so i couldnt figure out two questions. why does the script not work when i copypasted it to my common.js, but only when it's loaded from mw.loader? it also doesnt work on text wrapped by poem or code tags, it seems? like c:Commons:Village_pump/Technical/Archive/2018/12#Bulk_rename_for_51_files, c:Template:Autoarchive_resolved_section#Usage or File:Lettre de Montaigne au maréchal de Matignon, 26 janvier 1585.jpg. RZuo (talk) 07:48, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Because the script uses ES6 syntax, which is not supported by MediaWiki's validator for common.js, global.js, etc. Scripts loaded via mw.loader.load(), importScript(), etc. are not screened by MW so they just run in your browser verbatim.

Because <poem> is for poems, not code. You can make it work for poem tags by changing $content.find('pre'); to $content.find('pre, .poem');. <code> is inline only so it doesn't really make sense. Nardog (talk) 10:58, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

QuickUndo?

Hello, Nardog!

You may remember that we make great use of your userscript as a gadget in SqWiki. Now, I'm not the best vandal-fighter and I sometimes struggle to differentiate between rollback and undo (or what the outcomes will be if one does one instead of the other in certain scenarios) but I was thinking that maybe a QuickUndo script would be a good thing to have? Or maybe that would just "increase visual clutter without much benefits" as 9/10 you want to rollback changes instead of undoing them one by one? This is not really a request for a new script more than it is a request for your opinion on the matter. - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I got carried away. I'm having a hard time imagining what your proposed script would do. I assume it undoes an edit in one click, but where? Nardog (talk) 09:15, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

In recent changes and in pages waiting for review? Also in page histories but there already is an undo command so it would only "buttonize" it. — Klein Muçi (talk) 18:16, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Refrenamer choking on Waist-to-height ratio

Moved to User talk:Nardog/RefRenamer

Broad/Narrow Transcription and Spanish names

Hi Nardog, this is re your edit at Falkland Islands.

I actually made the same change myself and then reverted after looking at various phonological texts on Spanish. It seems that /s/ > /z/ after a voiced consonant is considered "correct", when in coda and across word boundaries. Now, I know that in various varieties this is not the case, rioplatense Spanish would have /s/ > /h/ as a possibility in both cases, some varieties would likely have /s/ as a possibility and southern Spanish varieties could lengthen the first vowel and delete or aspirate /s/ in a variety of ways.

Our own guides for similar cases in English would give the broad transcription, allowing [ˈislas malˈβinas], governed by policies like MOS:RHOTIC. But as this is a pronunciation guide, intended to show how the word sounds, are we not better going for the more common and correct narrow transcription [ˈizlaz malˈβinas] than the broad transcription which I think is not actually used that much?

The above question is genuine, rather than rhetorical btw! Anyway, it seems you are interested in IPA issues, if you have any idea of precedent in this case, it would be helpful.

Boynamedsue (talk) 08:00, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

@Boynamedsue: [z] was recently removed from the Help:IPA/Spanish key after talk page discussion not only because many varieties realize preconsonantal /s/ as [h] or [∅] as you point out but also because recent studies show variability in voicing assimilation even in accents where it remains a dental fricative. I was replacing [z] in all IPA-es transclusions; the fact you had edited it at Falkland Islands just a few days prior is but a funny coincidence. The whole point of the key, and of {{IPA-es}} linking the input transcription to it, is to explain what the symbols mean, so restoring [z] in just this one article is counterproductive and confusing for readers (as explained in MOS:PRON#Other languages). If you think it should be restored, you should make a case for it on the key's talk page. Nardog (talk) 19:25, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Help:IPA/Galician

I took to its talk page the edition I wanted to make for Help:IPA/Galician, you might want to check it out. Thank you. Navarretedf (talk) 13:31, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Eth

Hi, if you have a few minutes, would you review my copyedit of Eth, please? It had gotten into a bit of a mess with contributions from editors with English as a second language: I think I have interpreted their intent but on a couple of occasions had to guess. I have also used {{angbr}} fairly (too?) liberally where italics, quote marks or 'regular' were being used fairly randomly. TYVM. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:06, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Missing links at Template:IPA non-pulmonic consonants

Hi. I no longer know where the file keeping the links is to fix this.

If you click on <ɡ𝼊 ɢ𝼊> and <ŋ𝼊 ɴ𝼊>, you should be taken taken to voiced retroflex click and nasal retroflex click.

Thanks! — kwami (talk) 11:30, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Done. But what are you referring to when you say "per JIPA"? Nardog (talk) 06:57, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I asked the editor of JIPA, and she said they had no problem with authors using extIPA letters in their 'Illustrations of the IPA'; as far as they're concerned, they are IPA. — kwami (talk) 07:07, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Has the IPA ever published such a statement? How can one verify that's their position? I also don't see ⟨𝼊⟩ on the 2015 extIPA chart. So even if extIPA was considered equivalent to IPA, where can one verify ⟨𝼊⟩ is part of it? Nardog (talk) 07:11, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, you could ask (their contact info is publicly available), but how would we verify that they're not? It's a matter of semantics whether the phrase "extensions to the IPA" means that they are or are not part of the IPA; either including or excluding them would be OR without evidence. I wrote and asked for clarification, if articles in their series designed to illustrate the IPA could use extIPA letters. — kwami (talk) 07:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

That's not how it works. Since Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought, if no WP:PUBLISHED sources can be found which say something did or did not happen, we just say neither it did nor did not happen. We can say such-and-such symbols have been used in articles or have been added in Unicode, but we can't call them IPA symbols. Nardog (talk) 09:05, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Scripting Barnstar
		For writing VitalTopicon, which has greatly helped me and other members of the WikiProject over the past few months. 〜 Festucalex • talk 13:28, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:IPA link/audio

Template:IPA link/audio has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:04, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Bug report

VitalTopicon has suddenly stopped working. No topicon is showing. I can confirm that the script was working as intended on July 22 at least. 〜 Festucalex • talk 18:04, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

@Festucalex: Fixed. It was because the categories were reorganized. The script now uses a more stable method, but you no longer get the level or the topic, only the class. Do you want them too? Nardog (talk) 21:15, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

The level was a big deal, it would be real nice to have. Never mind the topic. 〜 Festucalex • talk 03:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Now it gets the level, but not the class. Let me know if the class was important too :p Nardog (talk) 04:33, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The level is more important by far. Thank you! 〜 Festucalex • talk 04:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I've always considered the topic and class to be a bit of clutter. This is better. 〜 Festucalex • talk 04:38, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Letters with ogonek

Template:Letters with ogonek has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Question

When you made my article Draft:Voiceless labial–velar implosive a draft, you said that it was not notable enough because the sound only occured in one language. However, many articles, like voiced uvular implosive and voiceless velar implosive occur in one or no languages respectively. So what makes a sound "notable"? PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 23:58, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia had a looser (or nonexistent) vetting process for new articles and I doubt those articles would survive AfD today. And the problems with that draft weren't just that it had only one language. Floyd (1981) is just the first edition of Bickford & Floyd (2006). A claim that a language has a sound not found in any other language is rather an WP:EXCEPTIONAL one, and is something you expect to find in a phonetics paper or a grammar of the language, not a general textbook, so it'd better be cited to an empirical study that shows how they got the data. I'd also expect some corroboration by later studies for a claim made more than 40 years ago about such a widely spoken language as Igbo. Nardog (talk) 06:24, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I see. PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 21:05, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Sino keys

I've just revamped and standardized Help:IPA/Jin and Template:IPA-cjy. Any issues? -- love.wh 08:45, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for revising the key and reaching me out. Outstanding problems AFAICS include:

• It uses non-IPA sinological symbols (⟨ȵ ɿ ʅ ᴇ⟩) and tone numbers. This defeats the whole point of the IPA, which is that it's an international standard so people from different educational backgrounds can understand it.
• What is the note about [v] supposed to mean? Is it recommending it be used in transcriptions linking to the key, or is it recommending against it?
• Listing the sequences of vowel + [ʔ] in a separate group is a rather strange choice. It'd be less confusing and more concise if you just listed [ʔ] among the consonants.
• What tones are there in Jin? Why are they transcribed only sparingly?
• Why is [r] listed among the vowels?
• What are the examples supposed to illustrate? One of the main purposes of an IPA key is to provide guidelines so the same words are represented identically across articles (and variations not reflected in transcriptions are typically explained in notes, see e.g. the Spanish key). If there's no single standardized variety or if there's so much variation that consistent representation would be inappropriate or infeasible, creating a key might be pointless in the first place.
• How many articles do you expect the template to be used in? To eliminate poorly maintained keys, Wikipedians have removed scarcely referenced keys.

All in all, it seems to me your research may be put to better use if you expanded Jin Chinese#Phonology rather than creating an IPA key. Nardog (talk) 12:12, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I recognize the non-standard IPA usage you pointed out. Before I fix them, will you explain what justify the existence a language-specific IPA key rather than using the generic Help:IPA? Take a major and a minor language as examples, why are the existence of Help:IPA/French and Help:IPA/Occitan justified (rather than using the generic Help:IPA)? -- love.wh 15:01, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

That they're referenced by thousands and hundreds of articles, respectively. If a language is transcribed in many articles (or there's such potential or demand), it makes sense for us to have a dedicated key so 1) there's consistency and 2) readers can visit a key tailored to the language. Nardog (talk) 22:25, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Thx for pointing out. I took my time and fix Help:IPA/Jin again. Any issues now? -- love.wh 04:41, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, it's much better! I've cleaned it up a bit (the diacritic in ⟨ɲ̟⟩ is unnecessary unless ⟨ɲ⟩ without the diacritic or with some other diacritic is also used in the same scheme; using "~" defeats the purpose of the key). It's still not clear to me why tones are transcribed only in the dedicated section. Are they not contrastive? If they are, they should always be transcribed. If not, they shouldn't be in the key. It's also confusing vowels with [ŋ] are listed independently. Given [ə, iə, uə, yə] are also followed by [r] or [ʔ] elsewhere in the key, it looks like [ŋ, r, ʔ] should be listed in a section dedicated to consonants that occur only in codas (and [ə, iə, uə, yə] can be listed as vowels with a note saying they're always followed by a coda, if that's the case), even if that means listing [ŋ] twice. Nardog (talk) 01:42, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I transcribed the tones, expanded the tone section and split a new section dedicated to final consonants. I encountered a problem in the tone section. Two tones have the same contour, one is stressed and have two mora, the other tone is unstressed and have one mora (see notes [vi] and [vii] on the page). Do IPA have a way to distinguish them? I also noticed the IPA tone letters are not displayed properly in Safari browser for its default sans-serif font Helvetica and in any browser which has a customerized sans-serif font Times New Roman. In fact, most fonts cannot display it properly, all I am certain is that Arial and Calibri can display them. A screen capture and a discussion could be founded in Talk:Tone (linguistics)#Ligatures.3F back in 2017. What do you think is the best solution on forcing the IPA template to use a specific font, or forcing the IPA template to use the font which the browser designate as the default font for unicode characters? -- love.wh 00:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I've done what I suggested in the last reply (separate vowels from "Final consonants") and alphabetized the lists. Not doing so may have been more intuitive to speakers of Sinitic languages, but note these keys are for people who saw a transcription in an article and are trying to figure out what the symbols mean.

Putting the "extra-short" diacritic ⟨◌̆⟩ on "unstressed" vowels seems like what you're looking for, but that brings up a question: what are the nuclei in the diphthongs and triphthongs? Using vowel letters in a row to represent a diphthong or (especially) triphthong can be quite confusing, especially for a language with so many of them. Any reason not to use ⟨j, w, ɥ, ◌̯⟩ for the non-syllabic components?

As for the display of tone letters, my recommendation is to install a SIL font and put e.g. .IPA { font-family: "Charis SIL"; } in your user CSS. There used to be a font stack for IPA in the site-wide CSS, but they've discontinued that, presumably because most devices nowadays can show IPA letters, if not all diacritics and suprasegmentals. So I don't think we would restore it. Nardog (talk) 08:18, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I fixed the non-syllables and merged the rhymes of fifinal consonant into the examples column. It should look better. I also noticed you unified all IPA language code templates, but now {{IPA|cjy|}} (for example, Jin Chinese pronunciation: [ou]) does not link to Help:IPA/Jin Chinese. The name "Jinyu Chinese" displayed on the template is also an obscure one, it's better known as "Jin Chinese". How can these two problems be fixed? -- love.wh 06:44, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for all the improvements! Nardog (talk) 08:40, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I sorted out the Help:IPA/Wuu key. The wuu code should be ready for inclusion. I also noticed Taiwanese Hokkien is exclusively coded as "nan-TW" in IPA/data. Since Taiwanese Hokkien is the de facto standard of Hokkien (Min Nan), it should carry both "nan" and "nan-TW" codes. There are tens of Taiwanese articles that use the "nan" code, but it is now linked to the non language specific IPA key.-- love.wh 15:01, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The Wu Chinese key has been added. {{IPA-nan}} never linked to the Taiwanese Hokkien key. If a transcription is intended to be of Taiwanese Hokkien and uses the conventions of the key, you should simply add "-TW". Nardog (talk) 12:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

This is more a problem of the misnomer of Help:IPA/Taiwanese Hokkien. As Taylor (2008) and Zhang (2022) explained,

Hokkien is known by different names in others parts of the world. Most noticeably, in Taiwan, where Hokkien is spoken by a majority of the population, the dialect is almost universally referred to as ‘Taiyu’ (literally ‘Taiwanese’). Whilst the appropriation of the dialect into a discourse of ‘Taiwaneseness’ throughout the course of the 20th century is of relevance to some of the issues I shall be examining below, it will suffice at this stage to note that, despite some differences in vocabulary and accent, Taiyu is essentially Hokkien by another name. Similarly, in the PRC, the term Minnanyu is used, while historically the term Xiayu or Xiamenyu – literally, ‘the language of Xiamen’, but most often rendered in English as ‘Amoy dialect’ – has also been employed at different periods. Whilst there are variations of Hokkien in different parts of the world, and despite the fact that many of these variations have themselves been identified by scholars – e.g. ‘Taiwanese Hokkien’ (Ho 1991) and ‘Standard Malaysian Hokkien’ (Tan C. 2000: 46), for instance – speakers of this dialect in Taiwan, the PRC, Singapore, Malaysia and elsewhere are able to communicate with one another and understand recordings made in Hokkien; Taiyu, Minnanyu, Xiayu and Hokkien are ostensibly the same dialect.

Taylor, Jeremy E. (2008). "From transnationalism to nativism? The rise, decline and reinvention of a regional Hokkien entertainment industry". Inter-Asia Cultural Studies. 9 (1): 63.

Zhang finds Taiyu [Taiwanese] to be a geographic misnomer. He reiterates that it is essentially the same language as Hokkien spoken in southern Fujian across the strait. It has also been called Amoy or Xiayu and deemed related to Holo (Heluo).

Zhang, Zhen (2022). "Tarzan/Taishan and other orphans". In Kwon; Odagiri; Baek (eds.). Theorizing Colonial Cinema. Indiana University Press. p. 158.

Taylor (2008) and Zhang (2022) justify that Help:IPA/Taiwanese Hokkien ({{IPA|nan-TW}}) ought to be renamed as Help:IPA/Hokkien ({{IPA|nan}}). On that page (but not in the title) editors could specify the standard ("通行腔", literally general accent) is Kaohsiung of southern Taiwan, where the descendants of Amoy, Fujian resided.

Furthermore, you could see the content of Help:IPA/Taiwanese Hokkien positioned itself as the standard variety, placing the dialectal variation of Choanchiu Hokkien and Chiangchiu Hokkien in the second and third paragraphs. Help:IPA/English is structured to handle dialectal variation in a similar fashion.

The current situation is bizarre. It artificially splits a potential IPA help page of standard Hokkien into several help pages of different Hokkien dialects. It also denies the standard variety to use the "nan" code but to use "nan-TW", as if one denies General American English the "eng" code but to use "eng-USA". This encourages every (maybe 5-10?) major English dialect to form its own IPA help page and make its way to the IPA keys navbox, as to nan-TW and other nan-**. love.wh 13:08, 6 November 2023 (UTC), edited 05:30, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Why are you telling this to me? I don't make the rules here. I was just stating the fact the output of {{IPA|nan|...}} and {{IPA|nan-TW|...}} is simply inherited from {{IPA-nan}} and {{IPA-taiwan}}. If you want to propose changes to the key then do it on its talk page. Nardog (talk) 05:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

It seems I mistakenly attributing your September rollout of new IPA module to the disassociation of IPA/nan code to IPA/Taiwanese Hokkien page. It seems an inherited issue ought to be raised long ago. Thanks for your clarification. -- love.wh 13:40, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I've just got Help:IPA/Xiang Chinese (hsn) sorted. The hsn code is ready for inclusion.-- love.wh 19:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Done. Nardog (talk) 03:51, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm following up the tone letters displaying issue. I found out all Apple devices, including iPhone, iPad and Mac could only display the "level" tone letters but not the "rising and falling" tone letters (I've checked all the latest models of all of them as of Nov 2023, and some older models, feel free to verify). Given the statistics of desktop vs mobile access on wikipedia (mobile: 55~60%, desktop: 40~45%, I'll take 57.5% vs 42.5%), the market share of mobile vendors (56.64% Apple in the U.S.), and the market share of desktop OS (31.47% macOS in the U.S.), that roughly means 0.575*0.5664+0.425*0.3147 = 45.9% of all Wikipedia readers could not see the proper tone letters. (I take U.S. as the example because it ranked the top by far in wikipedia page views by countries.) Installing a user CSS only help Mac users (and requires a wikipedia account), but do nothing to the iPhone and iPad users.

No doubt wikipedia could pass the buck to Apple. If so, the tooltips of IPA templates should display an error message stating that Apple's user could not view tone letters properly because of Apple's fault.

However, given all Apple devices are capable of displaying tone letter if one specify a proper font (Charis SIL, among others), wikipedia could stop the buck passing by modifying the IPA template to trigger the Charis SIL font for and only for the Chinese languages codes that use tone letters. Is there a technical difficulty for this? This change would involve Mandarin [cmn], Wu [wuu], Xiang [hsn], Jin [cjy], Cantonese [yue], Taiwanese Hokkien [nan-TW]. Keys not yet created that will need Charis SIL support include: Gan [gan], Min Dong [cdo] and Hokkien [nan - when move request proceeded]. -- love.wh 10:46, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Signpost article

I recently wrote an article about citation tools available, but due to that bug on WP:TOPSCRIPTS I wasn't aware that RefRenamer existed. I was made aware of this by PamD on August 1st, but didn't have time to investigate until now. I've updated the article accordingly, but I wanted to apologize for the omission in the first place. You can find the article here btw. If I made errors in the description of your script, let me know and I'll update. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 07:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the inclusion. I had seen your post at Wikipedia talk:User scripts but it didn't occur to me that RefRenamer could have been included. FWIW I prefer the human-curated list (as overwhelming as it may be), as WP:TOPSCRIPTS overrepresents old scripts, many of which are broken, no longer useful, or superseded by forks and gadgets. Nardog (talk) 12:51, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I mostly used TOPSCRIPTS to have a sortable listing, alongside an idea of how popular each script was. But yours is also not listed in Wikipedia:User_scripts/List#References. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

It's in Wikipedia:User scripts/List#References 2 because it's a script that's about editing. Nardog (talk) 13:57, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, that's double bad luck... seems I missed a few others. Luckily, they don't seem to be major scripts. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 14:08, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I've added a bunch of {{see also}} so hopefully it's less confusing. Nardog (talk) 14:52, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Needs IPA/cat

Template:Needs IPA/cat has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:07, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Needs IPA/lang

Template:Needs IPA/lang has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:07, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Articles needing Kurdish IPA

A tag has been placed on Category:Articles needing Kurdish IPA indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:47, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Script Question

Hi Nardog, do you know of a script that automates making move requests on an article's talk page? I didn't see one at Wikipedia:User scripts/List. Thanks. BilCat (talk) 18:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

You can use Twinkle, it's in the "XFD" module. Nardog (talk) 00:32, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh, duh! Facepalm I've used Twinkle for several years, and even looked at it today to find that, but totally missed it. I wasn't sure Twinkle had it, so thanks. BilCat (talk) 02:43, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

User:Nardog#The_Chaos

The word “new” in the fifth paragraph is not italicized though its partner word “sew” is italicized. Is that intentional?

— Fractaloid (talk) 23:31, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

That's the way it is in the source, so yes. Nardog (talk) 23:34, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Hah! The source used for this page has “new” italicized :D

However, I can see that the source you’ve linked is a more direct source.

— Fractaloid (talk) 00:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Template:Audio

I've been irritated for ages by the behaviour of {{Audio}} to open a new window, and have replaced it in many music articles with straight [[File:… . Your recent change removed that irritation, and I congratulate you for that. Questions: a) Are tagnames, like #tag:phonos, documented anywhere? b) Can this method be used in other Wikipedias, too, or do they need a special configuration? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The documentation is at mw:Help:Extension:Phonos, but note it's in the "inline audio player mode" so ipa= etc. are not available. It does appear to have been enabled on all projects: phab:T336763. Nardog (talk) 01:46, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

CSS help request

Hello Nardog!

Can you help me with something on my homewiki? We've been reconfiguring our mainpage recently and we switched to using a grid layout. Things are fine except for one small detail: In the right cell called "Këshilla", the last line is supposed to be on the bottom but because of the grid rules, new space gets introduced below it when large pictures are added in the adjacent cell (to make them align) and this pushes that line up until the middle, as you'll be able to see for yourself currently. Is there any small change I can make so that new space is actually introduced above that line instead of below it? - Klein Muçi (talk) 10:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't have much experience with grid, so I'm afraid I don't know. Nardog (talk) 21:57, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

No problem. It's no big deal anyway. I was asking mostly out of personal curiosity as I spent around 3 days trying to fix it and nothing was working. Thank you for trying! — Klein Muçi (talk) 22:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Kazakh ipa

I don't get it, kazakh ipa is really not what kazakh is like. How do we fix that? Erri Oldharwe (talk) 07:12, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

As Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Other languages says, If you wish to change those conventions, bring it up for discussion on the key's talk page. Creating transcriptions unsupported by the key or changing the key so that it no longer conforms to existing transcriptions will confuse readers. So propose the change on Help talk:IPA/Kazakh, provided you have sources to back up your claim. Note also that we generally follow conventions established in reliable sources rather than actual realizations, which are moving targets as language is always changing. Nardog (talk) 07:31, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Apostrophe in Japanese transcriptions

Hi! I noticed that you removed the apostrophe from the hepburn transcription of Yuzuru Hanyu. However, in this special case, the apostrophe is used to mark the correct syllable split. In Japanese, "n" is the only consonant that can appear at the end of a syllable (ん), so there are two possible hiragana writings of the surname "Hanyū":

1. Han'yū = はんゆう
2. Ha'nyū = はにゅう This is the correct one with 羽=は (ha) and 生=にゅう (nyū), used in Hanyu's official documents

You can find this apostrophe for Japanese syllable splits in Kun'yomi as well for example. The word "kunyomi" could be written in hiragana as くんよみ (kun'yomi) or くにょみ (ku'nyomi).

Note: I've just added the furigana writing はにゅう ゆづる of Hanyu's name to the introduction sentence because of the issue addressed above and because the given name "Yuzuru" has two possible hiragana writings as well:

1. ゆずる (ず is the common writing of the syllable "zu")
2. ゆづる (づ is an outdated writing of "zu", but it's the one used in Hanyu's official documents with 結=ゆ (yu) and 弦=づる (zuru))

Henni147 (talk) 10:33, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

No system of romanization puts an apostrophe before an n because the lack of an apostrophe already indicates the consonant belongs to the same syllable as the following vowel. That is, if the name was はんゆう we would write Han'yū, but in no system is はにゅう romanized as Ha'nyū. Nardog (talk) 10:55, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for clarification! I have seen the writing Ha'nyū in some sources, but if it's a wrong romanization, then the apostrophe should be removed of course. If I find the mistake elsewhere, I will correct it there, too. Henni147 (talk) 11:11, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Suggestion for improvement of {{IPA}}

Hello, thank you for your work on unifying the functionality of IPA-* templates under {{IPA}}. I have noticed that in the guide-linking mode of {{IPA}}, when someone accidentally encloses the second parameter in square brackets, the template outputs an unexpected output instead of an error. See User:Janhrach/sandbox3 for an example. This may be confusing for new editors, so outputting an error may be a more appropriate. Janhrach (talk) 07:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

That was already the case with the IPA-xx templates, but I see your point that it can be confusing now that it's the same template. An error strikes me as overkill, but using [/] so that input with extraneous brackets appears as "[[...]]" should reduce the potential confusion. Nardog (talk) 20:58, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. Janhrach (talk) 18:27, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Weird issue on pages with IPA transcriptions

Hi,

There appears to be a weird issue with what I only managed to track down to the IPA template, for example on this page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rites_of_Zhou (seems to occur specifically on Mobile Wikipedia?)

The page seems to only show the Israel flag, along with a very slowly loading map of the Earth.

Not sure if you are the right person to report this to, but you are the latest one to update Template:IPA, and as I am not a Wikipedia editor, I don't know who to best report this to. 240D:1A:631:7800:E84C:84C8:4FA4:62D2 (talk) 10:10, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

This was caused by vandalism on Module:IPA, a page that implements the template after Nardog's reimplementation. Janhrach (talk) 13:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Should have seen this coming and asked the module be protected. My bad. Nardog (talk) 16:56, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Small RefRenamer fix

Hello Nardog. I really love using RefRenamer – thank you for creating such a useful script! I was wondering if you had a moment to fix a small typo? In User:Nardog/RefRenamer-core.js, "refefences" should be "references" (currently on line 49). Best, HouseBlaster^talk 22:56, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Done. Thanks! Nardog (talk) 22:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Original Barnstar
		For writing and deploying Module:IPA which will be extremely helpful categorizing IPA transcriptions and unifying the language-specific templates. Awesome job, thanks a lot! ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 14:31, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Brilliant Idea Barnstar
	Thank you for your input [1] . You made a really good suggestion here. CatmanBw (talk) 07:33, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Allography

Hi, Nardog, are you watching Talk:Allography? A new editor has asked a pertinent question about a specific allograph of k which has raised a question in my mind. The whole section reads to me as WP:OR but more to the point, I don't see what it has to to with Allography. The fact that there are multiple ways to write in English what is essentially the same phoneme doesn't make them allographs, does it? Or am I taking too narrow a view of the concept? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 23:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

October 2023

Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit(s) you made to Boško Šutalo, did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. The specific form of disruptive editing is changing the IPA language to Croatian, which is not suitable for the specific football player due to his birth date. Equalwidth (talk) 04:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

@Equalwidth: I didn't change any presentation. The article already said "Croatian pronunciation: [bôʃko ʃǔːtalo]" before my edit. It was inserted here (compare this archived page and the corresponding source as of that revision). The same wikitext now outputs "Serbo-Croatian" instead of "Croatian" because the hr option was removed here as part of unifying the behavior and syntax of the IPA templates after I fixed the transclusions using the now-removed options.

I'm at a loss as to what you mean by "not suitable for the specific football player due to his birth date", but in any case I did not "chang[e] the IPA language to Croatian". Nardog (talk) 04:33, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I may have misread something… Equalwidth (talk) 04:38, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

In re Special:Diff/1184412280

Latest revision as of 06:43, 10 November 2023 Nardog (talk | contribs)   this runs directly counter to the whole purpose of a key - see MOS:PRON#Other languages Line 2: Line 2: The chart below explains how Wikipedia represents [[Pashto]] pronunciations with the [[International Phonetic Alphabet]] (IPA). For a guide to adding IPA characters to Wikipedia articles, see [[Template:IPA]] and {{section link|Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Entering IPA characters}}. The chart below explains how Wikipedia represents [[Pashto]] pronunciations with the [[International Phonetic Alphabet]] (IPA). For a guide to adding IPA characters to Wikipedia articles, see [[Template:IPA]] and {{section link|Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Entering IPA characters}}. Wikipedia transcriptions for Pashto may be either more general and abstract ([[phonemic]]), using only the symbols in the IPA column, or more detailed and precise ([[phonetic]]), using the symbols explained in the notes. (blank) See [[Pashto phonology]] for a more thorough discussion of the sounds of Pashto. See [[Pashto phonology]] for a more thorough discussion of the sounds of Pashto. {| {| |- style="vertical-align: top;" |- style="vertical-align: top;"

---

FYI I copied this text near word for word from Help:IPA/Arabic. I'm not as confident as you are to remove it but felt you'd like to know. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) ^{please always ping!} 18:18, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, removed it from the Arabic key as well. While transcriptions that do not adhere to the key for the language being transcribed are allowed by MOS:PRON under certain circumstances, such a transcription shouldn't link to the key, so having that note in the key serves little purpose. Nardog (talk) 22:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Question about the Name of An Article

There are quite a few studies that say that the q͡ɓ sound (such as this one ). I am going to create an article about it, but I am not sure what to name the article. Any suggestions? PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 15:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

How can a voiceless and voiced sound be co-articulated? The paper you linked in fact concludes it's a sequence of sounds with gestural overlap rather than a typical double articulation. There are countless sequences of sounds that are considered to constitute distinct phonemes in certain languages but don't have dedicated articles, many of which you can find on PHOIBLE. I see no reason to make an exception for this. Nardog (talk) 16:11, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok then, I was just asking, and I didn't really mean that is was co-articulated on the general sense. Maybe I won't create an article. PharyngealImplosive7 (talk) 16:49, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

References

83.253.235.22

Hi,

I noticed the message you left at User talk:83.253.235.22, and wondered if you would look over their other recent edits. I've reverted a number of their contributions in the past, but I don't have the subject knowledge to decide in some cases whether the edits are constructive or not.

Thanks, Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 23:17, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

RefRenamer support for pmid, s2cid and other reference attributes

Moved to User talk:Nardog/RefRenamer

Off-topic

Nardog, you could've, at the very least, notified me about your removal. Sheesh. --95.99.94.82 (talk) 20:15, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. Given WP:TIES, it should almost always be "were". Nardog (talk) 10:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC)