User talk:Pppery/Archive 6

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Nooo listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Nooo. Since you had some involvement with the Nooo redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. -- Tavix ^(talk) 03:27, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Revert graph template

Hi, I reverted your change for mw:Template:Graph:PageViews - all graph templates follow the convention of first explaining what the template does, and afterwards show how the template is made. Most of the time, how something is made is not as important for the viewers. --Yurik (talk) 19:10, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Please don't change things without discussing first. Graph templates follow the same convention as Lua modules - first the documentation, followed by the code of the graph itself. Both are important, but documentation is more important than code. It doesn't mean code is not important for those maintaining it. If you think they all should change, please start a discussion instead of deleting. Thanks. --Yurik (talk) 21:29, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Graph templates follow the same convention as Lua modules. AKA Graph templates arbitrarily deviate from the standard convention for templates, which is the result of the code first, then the documentation. The reason that lua modules look the way they do is that lua cannot be interpreted as wikitext usefully, whereas the markup of graph templates can. I'm not deleting anything; the code is still there, just on the "edit (source)" page instead of the main template page, where it doesn't belong. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 21:41, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Nominating templates for deletion

Hi, when nominating a template for deletion, it's normally good practice to leave some sort of edit summary stating that you're nominating it for deletion. A lot of people go by what they see on their watchlist (without going through the diffs of each change) and if they see an edit by an established editor without an edit summary they're likely to assume it's a relatively minor technical tweak rather than something as consequential as a deletion nomination. – Uanfala (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2018 (UTC) ....And you're also expected to notify their creator, as with any other XfD. – Uanfala (talk) 00:06, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

It would have been clearer to explicitly mention that you were talking about {{!Cite}}, which I didn't notify the creator for since they hadn't edited for 5 months. Good point about forgetting an edit summary there, though. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 00:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

It's {{!Cite}} and the immediately following half a dozen other templates created by the same editor. True, there's no need to notify retired people, but four months of inactivity is probably not enough to consider someone retired (provided they haven't indicated on their user page that they have retired). I think this is precisely the category of editors that the XfD talk page messages are meant for: if they were logging in every day, they would have presumably noticed the nominations anyway, wouldn't they? The crucial thing is that there are people who do not edit, but who receive email notifications if someone posts on their talk page and who will come out of the thicket if it's about something they're sufficiently interested in. – Uanfala (talk) 00:38, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Please stop

dealing with user sandbox+ project, directly. Please discuss first. Please restore page names. Thank you. ManosHacker ^talk 22:42, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

You say without providing any reason. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 23:05, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

It is a multi-language project to support equity in contributing. Our team has responsibility for its functionality. Thank you. ManosHacker ^talk 23:33, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

You do not own this set of templates. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 23:47, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes I know. I will be happy to demonstrate it and cooporate to make it better. Do you have a skype account to share my screen on?46.198.215.34 (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

No, I am not willing to take this dispute off-wiki. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Then please install user sandbox+ to your sandbox and try it out yourself, and I will assist by answering questions onwiki. Build personal and project libraries, more than the global library. Create and (or at least pretend to) move articles from user space to main space. Try all advanced options like starting a page directly to main space or edit in wikicode editor. If you have complete picture, we will save time and effort and the tool will finally get proper english optimization (which I know it needs). ManosHacker ^talk 01:21, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (sigh) You seem to be conflating the content side and the technichal side. I'm not required to go throught the motions of useing your template just to rename confusingly named templates or convert {{#if:{{REVISIONID}}|...|...}} to {{if preview|2=...|...}}. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 01:25, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Please consider that you continue to break functionality with your bold edits. You do not know the depth of the tool and the impact to functionality with what you are doing. In libraries like Template:Article page template class/Article template library, param4 cannot have a space before (after |). Please ask before making changes. Now param3 has to be whthout space after | too, and the help during the creation of custom libraries must also change to reflect this, as well as the matrix template itself. Please make proposals to take them step by step. ManosHacker ^talk 03:12, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Template:In creation, not Template:In use, but also revised to meet the tool's needs (also a time bug of original template is bypassed). Please ask first, the template targets people who create new articles. ManosHacker ^talk 04:52, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

I've only tangentially looked at this, but it sounds like some things are breaking. Rather than edit-warring over the main template, any proposed changes should be sandboxed in order to demonstrate functionality and backwards-compatibility with old usage. Primefac (talk) 13:15, 5 March 2018 (UTC) (talk page stalker)

Discretionary sanctions alert

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Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:09, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Template naming direction

Dear Pppery, since you are the only editor who really had an opinion on improving user sandbox+ templates family, I would like to hear form you to go forward properly. Initially there was only user sandbox functionality using a generic article template. This is now enhanced with templates for article types to select from. Would it be wise to have two main template family trees (i.e. user sandbox+ and article page template families) and host all templates under these two, or just one? Maybe it is time now for a full re-design in templates structure. Regards, ManosHacker ^talk 13:51, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea to me. I was considering proposing a more broad refactor of template naming, but never got around to it. One thing I would suggest though is move {{Article page template}} -> {{User sandbox+/templates}}, making only one family. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 19:58, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Have a look here, if you please. Yes, it is easy to make it one family, and even shorten template names. On the other hand it might be wise to give the option to the templates to work with different tools than the sandbox I thought of. What do you think? ManosHacker ^talk 21:42, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Project translation

Dear Pppery, I am preparing several word documents, for each template that needs translation, that take linked strings for translation from excel. This seems to work and I am building it now. Is there a better way to do it onwiki? Word and excel do not follow version changes onwiki. ManosHacker ^talk 22:42, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Sadly mw:Extension:Translate isn't installed here. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 22:51, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi, Pppery, have a look here to see the translation need. Would it be acceptable to build the translation on sub-templates under each of the pages? Porting to other languages would be significantly accelerated by this method. Do you have in mind any handy wiki-system that can fetch strings without stressing the servers and is easier to keep up-to-date compared to template pages creation/deletion? Thank you, ManosHacker ^talk 07:05, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Again, if mw:Extension:Translate were installed here, doing this would be trivial. I don't personally agree with manually reimplementing this sort of thing with template calls, but I can't thing of any better way of doing it. Had I not known about this discussion, though, my instinct would tell me to nominate the kind of template your proposing creating for deletion. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 14:47, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Pppery. I trust your instict and, in order to avoid any possible conflicts, I will not create any sub-templates. If the tool is of any worth to become a gadget and have system support for languages, I suppose it will find its way. Until then I will be translating it on demand. ManosHacker ^talk 15:14, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Editing suggestion

What do you think about that page, Characters of the Suderhof? Should that be incorporated into the main Neues vom Suderhof page, or should it stay a standalone page? Germanhexagon (talk) 14:48, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Neutral. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 18:58, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

What is your opinion as to the type of sources I should include to make it stronger, as a standalone? Germanhexagon (talk) 19:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC) Germanhexagon (talk) 19:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not a content kind of editor. Sorry. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 20:01, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip

Thanks for your tip regarding time formatting; I think it is going to work. I had found Template:ISO date, but I hadn't yet deconvoluted it; your snippet was much more to the essence of the problem. Thanks. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:06, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

prependtext

Hello Pppery, I hope you are doing all right. I wonder if you have in mind any way to implement prependtext functionality, preferrably by not using, user's or common, js. I would like to replace {{User sandbox+/flush page}}'s guidance with a two step procedure (click, confirm). Js code might partially look like the following:

then(function(){
  var api = new mw.Api();
  api.postWithToken( "edit", {
    action: "edit",
    title: "{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}",
    prependtext: "#REDIRECT [[{{NAMESPACE}}:{{BASEPAGENAME}}]]\n\n"
  })

but I still miss how to do it properly. Thank you, ManosHacker ^talk 11:07, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Again, I am not aware of any way of doing this without JS, and I doubt you'll get consensus to implement such js on the English Wikipedia. One thing to note, though, is that #REDIRECT [[{{NAMESPACE}}:{{BASEPAGENAME}}]] doesn't work because redirect targets can't be template determined. Also, wouldn't it be better for this to add {{db-u1}} (or the wiki-specific option -- it would seem really weird for a wiki not to let users delete page in their own userspace) in addition to or instead of masking the content behind a redirect {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 15:09, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I know the {{}} syntax is incorect in js, I put it there to show my intention. The delete issue was a solution due to low admin activity in Greek Wikipedia, which is inherited here. It might indeed be better to give the option for delete instead of making it a redirect, in English. (In my opinion users should be prohibited from moving pages from other spaces to their user space, allowed to delete their own space pages and move them around under their own space, and maybe finally to another space, without leaving a redirect behind). Thanks once again, Pppery. ManosHacker ^talk 17:26, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Help with Template:Infobox earthquake?

Hi again. I was wondering if you might help me with a problem at Template:Infobox earthquake. I've added some parameters, including 'timestamp', which should display as "UTC time" at the top of the list. However, if there is no value, and iff 'pre-1900' is set, I would like the label to not display. However, it is always displayed. But only in main space! The code works as I expect in testcases, my sandbox, and draft space (see Draft:1382_Dover_Straits_earthquake)). At one point I had another label ("Test") set up so it was doing the same thing, but I don't recall just how I did it. I'd greatly appreciate it if you should be inclined to take a look. There's a test stub to play with at 1382 Dover Straits earthquake--test.

And time for me to take a break. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 05:31, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I got it. It was a combination of a subtle logic error, some unexplained (and undocumented) behavior, and a short-fall in my understanding of the full scope of that behavior. Whew, I'm glad that rock broke before my hammer broke! ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:22, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Misuse of talk pages

Thanks for cleaning up my sloppiness. I only do that because it's so much easier to find the link to the talk page than it is searching for the link to the testcases page. I'll try to be more rigorous in future. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 15:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Templates

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Happy template editing! CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 04:58, 16 May 2018 (UTC) CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 04:58, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Request Fully Protect Article

@Pppery (talk) Can you please protect the article of edit fully-protected[[1]] from being deleted in future reference? If you can do so thank you in advance and have a nice day as being semi retired. =) Wiki Informant X (talk) 17:07, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Wiki Informant X, pppery is unable to do this as they are not an admin. To request page protection please go to WP:RFPP. Primefac (talk) 17:25, 10 June 2018 (UTC) (talk page stalker)

Wiki Informant X I'd add, more importantly, that your article is not going to be protected from deletion; that is not a thing that we do Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:36, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I have no interest in deciding the direct fate of article, only in insuring they aren't incorrectly speedied. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 17:47, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Dependencies: none

If you explicitly state that a function has "Dependencies: none" then you are differentiating between the case where a function has no dependencies and that where a function may or may not have dependencies, but it has not been documented. That's an important distinction for any third party looking at the code who may wish to reuse it. Best practice is to make that distinction clear. --RexxS (talk) 23:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Doing safesubst invoke

As this set of experiments will indicate, I'm obviously missing something. Help:Substitution does not cover substitution of #invoke. The goal in this case is for the template to work as-is, and also to substitute cleanly if it is substituted (i.e. to produce [[French language|French]] from {{subst:ISO 639 name link/sandbox|fr}}.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:09, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't know why that was failing, but modules should be safesubstable like everything else. (example: {{MultiReplace}} is substable by passing safesubst to a module) {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 13:47, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

It seems that doing safesubst:<nowiki /> will not work but safesubst:<noinclude /> will. Mysterious but noted.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:33, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Probably the order in which stuff is evaluated. My guess is that the <nowiki /> tag is extracted early, before the template is evaluated but the <noinclude /> tag is not extracted because it is directly related to template evaluation. The content of <nowiki /> tags is reinserted after template evaluation. What is not clear to me is why it is necessary to insert anything between safesubst: and #invoke or a template name.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:18, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Because otherwise the safesubst gets parsed during PST of the edit being saved. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 16:20, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Explain please. I don't know what the initialism PST is.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:30, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Pre-save transform. I mean that, just like if one types "{{subst:foo}}" and gets the result of substing Template:foo, the same thing happens with safesubst. {{3x|p}}ery (talk)

Move disruption

Please stop moving those template styles pages and please revert those already moved. It is disruptive. If you think they should be named differently, please come chat at WT:TemplateStyles.

Thanks. --Izno (talk) 01:54, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

No. For all other uses of subpages, the "/sandbox" goes at the end (ex. Template:Db-multiple/item/sandbox is not called Template:db-multiple/sandbox/item. TemplateStyles should not be special in this regard, and I am not going to endorse this deviant behavior by reverting myself. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 02:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

TemplateStyle experiments

Hello, regarding Template:Template sandbox/styles.css, is there any alternative to test templateStyle without creating a subpage of the template sandbox? Thank you, and sorry for the inconvenience. --Ita140188 (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of. A CSS sandbox probably is a good idea, however the solution to that problem is to discuss it at WT:TemplateStyles or WT:About the Sandbox, not to create pages that meet G2. (Also: this is the second time I had to G2 such a page, which explains the announcement to all edit summary). {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 02:13, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. This has now been solved at WT:TemplateStyles#TemplateStyles in Modules. --Ita140188 (talk) 07:19, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

moving templatestyle pages

hi.

so you moved "Template:Chess from pgn/template style.css" to "Template:Chess from pgn/styles.css" with summary "Naming convention" (wish i knew how to link to specific move log item). this is fine, but i think that when doing so, it should be your responsibility to see that the template that includes this style using "templatestyle" tag, is modified to use the moved page.

we can argue whose responsibility it is, but twisi, something was working, you made a change, for "naming convention", to a state that was not technically wrong, or in violation of any policy (as a side, please note that even Wikipedia:TemplateStyles does not stipulate specific name, at least not consistently: there is at least one example using a different name), and after your change, things were borked: the template referenced non-existing page, and did not get the style it needed.

i do not mind it that much, as a one-off thing - i fixed it shortly after, and the specific template is not currently used in article space, so the impact was very limited. however, if you regularly move style pages this way, i think you should not leave broken stuff behind, and when you rename a page, you should fix the places it's referenced, so the reference is made to the new name. if you can't or don't want to do this, i think you should refrain from moving those pages, even when their name violates the convention: better violate naming convention, than violate a working template.

peace - קיפודנחש (aka kipod) (talk) 15:18, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

(not a talk page stalker, just happened to be reading) קיפודנחש, you can link to [Special:Log?logid=92283440 a single log entry] using User:Enterprisey/links-in-logs.js - just visit a Special:Logs page (like the move log for the second page) and the timestamps will now be links. Enterprisey (talk!) 06:16, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Expensive parser call in Template:Template parameter value

In the deletion discussion you mention The fact that it uses an expensive parser function means it is by definition not "extremely efficient". Which parser function is that? (please ping with reply) Cheers, · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 11:36, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Follow this link, click show preview, scroll to the bottom of the page and click Parser profiling data, midway down is 'Expensive parser function count'. If there are any expensive calls in {{template parameter value}} they will be tallied there. The only function in module:template parameter value that can be expensive is mw.title.new() but only when called with an id number (see its documentation). It appears that the template expects article titles as text strings so the occasion of id will be rather rare. It is possible that whatever is handled by frame:preprocess() might be expensive (I don't know what that is because the author couldn't be bothered to document the code – shame on them) but such expensive calls are not caused by {{template parameter value}}.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:08, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

@Pbsouthwood: It looks like I was just wrong when I said that. The piece of code I was thinking was expensive was calling getContent on a title object, but that doesn't seem to be true. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 14:17, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Trappist the monk and Pppery, Cheers, · · · Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 14:28, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Renaming Unknown parameter subcategories

Following up on this discussion, and the related WP:CFDS comments, I'd like to invite you to open an RfC/CfD to reach a standard for naming these categories. -DePiep (talk) 11:47, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

"Usage of Wikidata is not allowed in article text"

Hi Pppery. Can you please tell me which WP policy doesn't allow links to Wikidata in article text? Thanks. -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 19:06, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikidata#Appropriate usage in articles, which I guess isn't technically a policy. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 19:08, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, since it is not really a policy, it looks like it is not enforced. Regards, -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 19:17, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

It may not be enforced very well, but it should be, so I enforced it when I stumbled across that set of articles in an unrelated task. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 19:18, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Module cleanup

I know you've been working on cleaning up the module space recently, does this seem useful to you? For me, I would think typing {{=}} would be simpler. Primefac (talk) 13:56, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

It could theoretically be useful. For example, if {{URL}} were implemented in Wikitext, using this module would be useful if it were rewritten to use parent arguments. Personally, I probably wouldn't nominate it, but wouldn't !vote keep if someone else did. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 18:55, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Demon-controlled orcs in Warcraft III

Actually, the orcs belong to Blackrock Clan which has resumed demon worship as revealed in the second mission of the human campaign, Blackrock & Roll. That said, it's not really relevant to the plot as whole, so your removal still makes sense, Regards SoWhy 08:15, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

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Visual glitch at WP:VPP

Hi Pppery. Thanks for fixing the visual glitch at WP:VPP. I noticed the glitch but couldn't work out what was causing it. Regards. DH85868993 (talk) 00:15, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Template

Hi, If you click here, Scroll up one to Ser's greeting - Click edit next to that header .... It takes you to the template .... Thanks, –Davey2010 ^{Merry Christmas / Happy New Year} 21:36, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

• You just fixed it as I wrote this :), Unfortunately it's still taking me to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:ShilohbyBillings&action=edit&section=T-1, Thanks for your help, –Davey2010 ^{Merry Christmas / Happy New Year} 21:38, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

  I've configured things so the problem should fix itself by a bot in 20 or so minutes. In theory, I could code up a more short-term fix, but it's not worth it in my opinion. {{3x|p}}ery (talk) 21:42, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

• You're a legend!!, Thanks so much your help is very much appreciated :), Merry Christmas and I hope you and yours have a Happy and Healthy New Year, Thanks again. –Davey2010 ^{Merry Christmas / Happy New Year} 22:26, 25 December 2018 (UTC)