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Accessibility of help page

Hi RexxS. I've been working on a new design proposal for Wikipedia's main help page at Help:Contents/2012 redesign. Could you possibly take a look at it for any accessibility issues? Thanks. the wub "?!" 23:06, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey Wub, I've looked over the page source and it seems to be quite accessible: colours are good; text size is fine; images are all decorative and unlinked; it looks fine and behaves well with images disabled. I don't like using tables for layout, of course - I'd normally float a bunch of divs at just less than 50% width to make two columns, but I know that layout tables are easier (until you want them to degrade gracefully on a mobile phone screen, of course!).

Anyway it's all good with one exception: you should always test the page for keyboard-only input and make sure that all selectable content can be reached by using the [Tab] key. It's not your problem because the main content is fine, but I just found that the "Help improve this page" footer can't be reached by tabbing - I assume that's the case everywhere. You would have thought somebody would have spotted that. Addendum: I just checked a "Rate this page" footer - the "What's this" link can be reached by tabbing, but the rest of it can't. Oh well. Your page is nice work though. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 23:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks for that. Yes I prefer not using tables, but they are so much easier to get working across browsers. Good spot on the Feedback Tool, I'll file a bug about it. the wub "?!" 14:34, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Now at bugzilla:40595. I seem to have been in bugzilla a lot recently. the wub "?!" 16:24, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for reporting this issue. I noticed this issue, along with several of its kind a long time ago. Interactive elements not accessible with the keyboard keep arising in new features. Last time I reported it, developers used a workaround to the problem that actually made it worse. Then I admit I lost hope to solve such issues trough bugzilla. But I should keep on hoping - thanks for reminding me that.

Here is a detailed explanation I wrote for developers. Wikipedia:WikiProject Accessibility/MediaWiki accessibility specification#Keyboard Navigation. What do you think of it? Any correction to make? Is it clear enough, and understandable? Dodoïste (talk) 21:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Manchester meetup

Hi Rexx. User:Sal73x has asked me when the next Manchester meetup is going to be, but there don't seem to be any north-west meetups scheduled for the near future. Any suggestions on when the next one should be, or shall I just pick a date? (Sorry I couldn't make the last Manchester one.) Cheers, Bazonka (talk) 06:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey Bazonka, apologies for not getting something scheduled, but I've been rather preoccupied with other stuff lately. The formal way to solve it is to appoint you as coordinator for all north-west meetups, so you can just pick dates. The wiki-way is to get anybody who has five spare minutes to copy the last meetup page on meta meta:Meetup/Manchester/14 as meta:Meetup/Manchester/15 and just blank out or alter bits until it looks right. Either will work :) See you soon, --RexxS (talk) 20:27, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

No problem. Let's go for 20 October in Manchester, and 24 November in Liverpool. Bazonka (talk) 22:12, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Question about table captions

In circumstances like BAC_One-Eleven#Specifications, where a table is directly underneath a heading 2, with no other text in the section, is a separate table caption still required for accessibility purposes, or if the function performed by the heading immediately above?Nigel Ish (talk) 20:14, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Technically, the requirements of WCAG still include a caption even in that case, because a screen reader like JAWS can navigate directly to a table by selecting its caption from a list. However, if you talk to folks like Graham87, he'll tell you that he's far more likely to call up a list of headings and go directly to the section, making the caption much less valuable in the cases you refer to. You might consider the possibility that someone may later add a quantity of text between the heading and the table, which strengthens the case for a caption. Or that someone may re-use the table in its entirety, but without the heading above it - also a reason for the table to have a caption which makes it 'self-contained'. It's really a judgement call you have to make for each article, but I don't think I've ever criticised a table for lack of caption when it was immediately beneath a header that clearly identified it. Sorry it's not a definitive answer, but I hope it helps anyway. --RexxS (talk) 00:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. It looks as if table captions would be needed more elsewhere. I was trying to raise a similar point in the ship infobox discussion (i.e. does the article title reduce the need for a infobox caption) but it seems to have been lost in the noise.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:26, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Of course I'd always use a table caption where there was a reasonable amount of text between the heading and the table, as I don't want to make Graham wade through paragraphs of text if all he wants to do is to revisit the table - see List of signs and symptoms of diving disorders for a classic example. Similarly, he can't navigate via the article title once he's arrived at the page, so a caption for an infobox table is actually a good idea, since that lets him go straight to the infobox if he just wants to swot up on the summary info. The corollary of that is that we should get into the habit of always including keywords like "Summary of ..." in the table caption for an infobox. It would be a kindness to our visually impaired visitors to give them a cue that they were going to a précis contained in an infobox. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 20:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia Medicine

Hi. There is a discussion here about COI, woo and other interesting things, and your input would be very welcome. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:24, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Anthony, thanks for the "heads-up". As it happens, I have been watching that thread and I am convinced by what Iridescent has said. He is far better at expressing such views than I am, so I felt no need to add a +1. I do keep in touch with him offline and greatly value his critical eye on much of what happens in the project, so I'd simply commend his observations to all of WPMED. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 13:25, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

ACCESS and an obscure template

Hi RexxS. I had posed a question about WP:ACCESS on WT:FLC but it hasn't attracted any attention, and since you seem to be the most knowledgeable editor on the subject I figured I'd ask you directly. I'm working on a draft version of Frequent David Lynch collaborators in a sandbox, and have been using {{Mousetext}} along with a key to keep the tables at a reasonable size (I think you can see from the current version why this was something I wanted to go for). However the template seems to rarely used and has no discussion; I'm just wondering if it still works fine within the remit of WP:ACCESS and the like, or if I should come up with an alternate solution (which would probably emulate Timeline of the far future by using images with alt text and mouseover text both set). Any advice you could offer would be hugely appreciated; thanks! GRAPPLE X 17:00, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It's an odd template that seems to be designed specifically to mimic the <abbr>...</abbr> tag. Compare:

• {{Mousetext|AM|The Amputee}} => AM

with:

• <abbr title="The Amputee">AM</abbr> => AM

It is absolutely certain that the <abbrev>...</abbrev> tag is accessible, and although I'm pretty sure that almost every screen reader will read the title that is generated by {{Mousetext}}, I can't see any purpose for the template. The odd thing is that most people don't like the ... underline that <abbr>...</abbr> tag generates, yet the creator of {{Mousetext}} went to the trouble of deliberately emulating it. I've made a derivative at User:RexxS/Plain abbr without the dots and with a default cursor:

• {{User:RexxS/Plain abbr|AM|The Amputee}} => AM

Mouseover the AM to see the expanded text. There's a title that screenreaders will use, so it might fit your purpose. Feel free to take it, move it or do with it what you will. If you want to use it in an article it would best moved to Template: space.

Summary:

• What you're doing is fine.
• Personally, I'd prefer <abbr>...</abbr> to {{Mousetext}}
• Some editors might prefer the visuals of User:RexxS/Plain abbr

Hope that helps, --RexxS (talk) 20:38, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It does; thanks a whole lot. I'll stick with the <abbr>...</abbr> method (didn't know it existed); the underline might seem a bit unpleasant to some but it's a good reminder that there is a mouseover function that might otherwise be missed. Thanks again! GRAPPLE X 20:44, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Note: if you prefer to use a template than complicated syntax in articles, there is {{abbr}}. On a side note, I'm going to replace the uses of the "mousetext" template with "abbr", and ask deletion of "mousetext". Cheers, Dodoïste (talk) 10:02, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Dodoïste - quick work. I see that Mousetext has already been redirected to Abbr (the only difference was the cursor shape, a trivial detail). --RexxS (talk) 11:18, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey RexxS, sorry for butting in. What about text-only browsers? Using Links and Lynx, text created with {{abbr}} does not appear any different to me. Cheers, Goodraise 21:28, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Lynx is always going to be unable to render both representations (the abbreviation and its expansion), but it doesn't make use of title attributes as far as I can tell either (for the same reason of course), so there's no work-around. If you think about it, we use abbreviations to save space, otherwise we'd just use the expanded form anyway. A text-only agent can't be expected to save the space and display the expansion. There will be limitations to user agents, and we simply have to try to accommodate as many people as we can. Thanks for pointing that out, though. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 23:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I see. Would you then say relying solely on this template/tag for column headers (example) in tables should be considered insufficient? Until now, I've tried to avoid creating key tables or footnote sections when they would have less than three entries. Goodraise 23:33, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

As with most abbreviations, the context will determine whether it is sufficient. Using "No." with an expanded form of "Episode number" in a table called "Trinity Blood episodes" is probably as good as you are likely to get. Mouseover shows the expanded form and screen readers get that anyway. Users of text-only browsers are left to guess that "No." mean "Episode number", but have the table caption to give them the hint. I think the same argument goes for "Ep." = "Episodes" when the preceding text describes how the episodes are collected onto DVDs. I think we'd end up trying to cater for a virtually non-existent problem if we thought abbr wasn't doing the job it was designed to do. We always have the option of improving the context surrounding the table if abbreviations within a table are not sufficiently obvious, and that's probably worthwhile anyway. --RexxS (talk) 00:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for enlightening me. I hope I'm not imposing, but there's one more thing I've meant to ask for a while. Do rows of alternating content (for example No./Title/Airdate and plot summary) pose a problem (or significant inconvenience) for users of screen readers? I have some ideas how to address this, but I have a feeling this might be another non-existent problem. Goodraise 00:46, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

They may indeed pose an inconvenience to users of screen readers. JAWS for example allows a user to navigate around a table, up, down, left, right, and can be set to read out the row and column headers immediately before the data as each cell is selected. The plot summary in the cases that I've seen would be read as having the same column header as the Number or Title - confusing but possibly understandable from the context, although not great for the visually impaired. There is a work-around that SpinningSpark implemented on the tables in List of chronometers on HMS Beagle #Second voyage, which involves making a hidden header for the alternate row in the header row. A screen reader finds it and Graham was quite pleased with how it sounded to him. If you want to implement it, I'd recommend having a good look at how it works first, and perhaps trying it out in a sandbox. You can always ask Graham87 to have a listen to it for you - he's very helpful with these sort of issues. --RexxS (talk) 16:38, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

As much as the programmer in me can appreciate a good hack, hearing about workarounds when it comes to Wikipedia always leaves me skeptical. Aside from demanding an unreasonable amount of expertise from other editors (who may want to further modify such tables without them breaking for mysterious reasons), they may have unintended side effects or simply not work for everyone. This does not appear to be an exception. In my primary web browser, the "Extended comments" column is not hidden, nor is it in Links or Lynx. Anyway, once again thanks for enlightening me. Goodraise 19:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome, as ever. The hack produces a non-hidden column in Chrome, as well, although it works well in IE9 and Firefox. Visual agents are free to determine column widths and treat styled widths as hints, of course, so this is no surprise. The only way to be certain that all user agents treat content similarly is to keep the table as simple as possible - and alternating rows break that guidance. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 20:49, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Name question

Hi, RexxS. I wonder if you could advise me on the article naming question at the bottom of the talk page here? Your time would be very much appreciated. Thanks, and Happy editing! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:49, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I've commented there. Hope that helps, --RexxS (talk) 16:31, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	Thank you for helping me understand the error of my edits! Spacecasetheman (talk) 21:53, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Admin Question

How do exactly become an admin on wikipedia? Spacecasetheman (talk) 22:18, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

You are probably best asking that question to an admin! I'm not an admin because I've never been able to justify a need for the extra tools that an administrator has. But you may find that working in anti-vandal patrol, or deletion debates are areas that interest you, and becoming an admin would be a natural progression. I have a very good wiki-friend called Worm That Turned who is a well-respected admin with a reputation for developing keen editors into good admins. You could introduce yourself to him (tell him I sent you) and ask him about what you would need to do to pass a Wikipedia:Requests for adminship, which is the stage you have to go through to become an admin. It takes time and lots of edits, as well as learning policies and conventions, but we need good admins, so good luck if that's what you decide you want to do eventually. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

There is a discussion started here: User talk:Worm That Turned#A small job for you. This would be a very good place to ask a question, because even when Worm is busy, there are many other editors who watch the page and answer questions. --Neotarf (talk) 11:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but I really don't have any questions. I get to meet Worm often enough in person to know that he doesn't get much chance over the weekends to deal with wiki-work, but I wasn't expecting that my "small job" would be looked before next week. I am grateful that the talk-page-watchers picked up and have already given Spacecasetheman good advice and pointers. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 12:51, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, I meant Spacecasetheman's question. I have fixed the indent so hopefully it won't cause confusion. Yes, I have gotten questions answered there before, and it's always interesting to see a variety of answers too, from different people. His adoptees are very sharp, so I'm always learning something new there. How interesting that you know him personally. --Neotarf (talk) 13:48, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, favours, that's what your talkpage is all about

Hey, big RexxS. I wanted to remove the bureaucrats' noticeboard RfA report template from my userpage, but simply removing it uglied up the page layout like you wouldn't believe. Could you extract it in a nerdy way, please? It's not just Bishapod, you know; all the family suck big-time at wiki layout. If you're in a fixie mood, feel free to make the whole thing a little airier. I guess Darwinbish pushed rather rudely at your family portrait when she posted the Yoman's "Gabby" template ([sourly :] very funny, I'm sure). Note, however, that I don't especially want a major makeover making the page look, well, more professional, or neat or anything. (Jack offered once.) Amateurish is me. Bishonen | talk 19:55, 10 October 2012 (UTC).

Hope that is what you wanted. You can always shove some other stuff into the resulting space - I'm sure Darwinfish will know how. --RexxS (talk) 20:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much — yes, it did climb up, that was the thing. This is probably a purely metaphysical question, that only Sensei Darwinfish would know the answer to, but how… uh… or why, does the {{-}} stop that? Is it a trick I can use on other pages? Bishonen | talk 22:03, 10 October 2012 (UTC).

It's a template that inserts a bit of html whose job is to force the following content to start on a new line. The new line has to have a clear left and right margin as well, so on your page it makes sure the TOC lines up against the left margin and the administrator box lines up level with it against the right margin. Template:- #Examples has some ideas to try out. --RexxS (talk) 22:29, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Hnh. If I'm not careful, I'll find myself learning how to do this stuff. Well, some of this stuff. Miniscule parts of it. You're a good explainer, Famously! Bishonen | talk 22:39, 10 October 2012 (UTC).

Parkinsons UK

Parkinson's Training

This is Richard leaving a note! The Cavalry (Message me) 15:04, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Thursday.... workshop.... Gordo (talk) 15:05, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Draft article for the competitive sport ‘Sport Diving'

Hi RexxS,

I have written an article about the underwater sport Sport Diving and have placed an advanced draft in a userspace at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cowdy001/Sport_Diving_(competition_Scuba) for your feedback. Its major source is a set of rules which I found on the following Russian websites - view athttp://www.ruf.ru/Pravila-sorevnovaniy-po-diving.html (in Russian or in English if viewed with Chrome) or downloaded from http://nayada.tusur.ru/engine/download.php?id=210 (reasonably good translation from original Russian apart from spelling errors such as ‘Emersion’ which I have currently retained in the draft). I am thinking about emailing the chair of the Sport Diving Commission to ask if he is interested in uploading some photos to Wikimedia for use in this article. From my perspective, the concept of competition scuba is not unique. Here in Australia, a similar approach was offered by the Australian Underwater Federation (AUF) from the late 1950s up until the early 1990s. The Underwater Society of America (USA) has a similar history and appears to still offer a national competition. The AUF concept used openwater or sheltered water sites rather than swimming pools. The content of the recently upgraded AUF website suggests there may be an interest in the Sport Diving concept. I intend to do similar articles for the following sports - Underwater photography and Underwater Orienteering, before proceeding with the upgrade of the Underwater Sports article. Regards. Cowdy001 (talk) 10:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Cowdy,

The article looks fine and you've supplied plenty of references, which the key to making decent articles. My only thought is that I'm not sure how notable the subject is. It ought to be notable, but you may be asked to show that it has had significant coverage in multiple independent sources - see our general notability guidelines for more detail on what is needed. For example, see if you can find some news coverage of any of the events, or a magazine article about one of the disciplines or an interview with a prominent competitor talking about the sport. I'll see if I can help out in general when I'm less busy, but please let me know if there's anything in particular I can do to help. --RexxS (talk) 15:45, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi RexxS, thanks for the feedback. I have done a little bit of looking for independent source - so far, I have very brief mentions on an Estonian government website where funding for a team for one of the championship was declined and on a Finswimming website. The RUF website mentions that the sport is on the Russian government’s sports register and that it appeared on a Russian sports TV station - no luck so far in locating evidence of these. Cowdy001 (talk) 00:28, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi RexxS, I did some very structured web browsing (including looking at Spanish, Catalan & Russian sites) over about 3 evenings and was able to find at least 12 suitable articles (including the Russian Government recognition of the sport) along with a lot of other interesting information. About 2 weeks ago, I also emailed Marifé Abad, the CMAS Sport Diving commission chair, to ask some questions and to request if some photos could be uploaded to the Wikimedia. I received a brief reply. I will wait another 2 weeks before uploading the article. If no photos are available, I may do some illustrations of the 5 main events. I am wondering if you know anything about copying articles in the other language versions of the Wikipedia and using these in the En Wikipedia. I noticed an article about the NZ freediver, William Trubridge that had been copied into the Spanish Wikipedia (i.e. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Trubridge). I would like to copy the FEDAS article from the Spanish Wikipedia as it does mention Sport Diving. Cowdy001 (talk) 10:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

That's excellent work, Cowdy, congratulations on your diligence. You should go ahead with everything you've found - it all sounds good to me. The guidance you want is at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia#Translating from other language Wikimedia Projects and there is a template specially made for showing that you've imported a translation: {{Translated page}}. Have a look at the documentation on that template as it explains quite well how to use it. Happy editing, --RexxS (talk) 23:11, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi RexxS, an editor placed the following tag twice within the article - {Prose|section|date=October 2012}. While I appreciate the action (as I know some articles that require such treatment), I think converting the 2 tagged lists to prose will complicate things. What should I do? BTW, I asking because the CMAS Sport Diving Commission Chair is currently reviewing the article. Cowdy001 (talk) 00:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Cowdy, you only need to use your judgement, so if you think it complicates the article by converting those lists to prose, then just ignore the tags. The tags are valid, I suppose, because we do prefer prose to lists, so you should leave them in place. The purpose is to attract editors to the article to improve it; if nothing happens after a period of time, you may well conclude that the tags are not serving their purpose and remove them. Alternatively, another editor may come along soon and make a really good job of rewriting those sections as prose - and we may all be happy with that. Either way, don't worry about it. Happy editing! --RexxS (talk) 19:56, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Been a while.... another favour?!

Okay, I owe you ... six? Sixteen? Sixty?! I have a query about the "standard" DVD release tables in some episode lists, e.g. The X-Files (season 5)), is the DVD release table just dandy or is it rubbish? I now stare at these kind of tables with complete suspicion since we started realising that ACCESS was worth more than a nod...! Any comments would be good (by the way, it's not an FLC, it's part of a good topic nomination... ) The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

That's {{Episode list/sublist}} that causes the problem. As usual, it looks reasonable to a sighted viewer (apart from the near-invisible blue-on-blue references in the header), but a screen reader user gets an inferior experience. It's not as bad as a lot of the stuff we've seen in the past, but it would still tell a JAWS user that the summary was a "No. in newline series". I guess folks like Graham87 just get used to this sort of stuff, or simply don't try to navigate around the table - it will read ok if they just read it sequentially.

Summary: it would be better for visually impaired visitors if each episode occupied a single row of the table, so the summary would be just another column with a proper row header. That doesn't look so pretty to a sighted viewer, so I doubt if there is much appetite to change the template. As it is, it's about as accessible as we can manage. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 23:11, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for butting in again, but I think TRM was asking your opinion on the table in this section. Personally, I think it's rubbish, but you're the expert. Goodraise 20:24, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, Goodraise, and thanks for the reminder - just put it down to my senility. That table is really odd, because it contains several pieces of information that seem to be organised into a table just to produce a particular visual layout. As it happens, a screen reader would probably cope not too badly with it if it was read out linearly - the user would have to remember the titles for the information in the following row, of course. Obviously there's no way of navigating around it because there's no structure to the data that works for a table.

Anyway, this is the information that I think is intended to be presented:

Title: The X-Files – The Complete Fifth Season

Set details:

• 20 episodes
• 6-disc set
• 1.78:1 aspect ratio
• Subtitles: English, Spanish
• English (Dolby Digital 2.0 Surround)

Special features:

• "The Truth About Season Five" Documentary
• Audio Commentaries (Dolby Digital 2.0 Stereo)
  • "The Post-Modern Prometheus" – Chris Carter
  • "The Pine Bluff Variant" – John Shiban
• 8 special effects clips
• 6 deleted scenes
• 11 "Behind the Truth" F/X spots

Release dates:

• Region 1: May 14, 2002
• Region 2: December 27, 2004
• Region 3: November 11, 2002

As you can see, the layout that the table provides is more compact, and I guess it's more appealing to a sighted user. Personally I always prefer the simplest possible way of presenting information, as it's more or less guaranteed to give the least problems for visitors using screen readers or mobile devices with small screens, etc.

You must remember that we have no experts here on-wiki, so my opinion is only worth what you can make of the reasoning I can give. I would say, though, that I couldn't possibly disagree with your assessment here. ;) --RexxS (talk) 21:04, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you RexxS, your advice is much appreciated. I have a longer term project now, it's Help:Sorting. It may well be accurate (I don't think it is), it may well purport to be written in English (I don't think it is) and it may well purport to advising best practice (I don't think it is) but I suspect you may see it as a whole "bugger's muddle"... Would appreciate (whenever you have time, like, in 2016) your comments....!! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:34, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Were the information to be presented in that bulletted manner, that'd be screen-readable, right? I don't mind un-tabling those tables within WP:TXF (less than 20 in all, I think) and presenting it as a list of bullet points. It would be easy enough to break up any white space with a picture or two so it's not going to mean losing too much in the way of aesthetics. GRAPPLE X 22:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good GrappleX, very good. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:45, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Can I have a look at the sorting in a couple of days? I'm up to my ears in fixing Harry's laptop (I'm just getting on top of the problems now) and I have some WMUK business to finish off. But I promise I'll get to Help:Sorting as soon as I can (probably a little before 2016).

Anyway, screen readers love proper lists - I mean lists marked up as lists with * or #, not continuous prose with html <br> tags stuck in it. If you think about it, a data table is really a two-dimensional list where each cell has one sort of relationship to every cell in the same row, and a different relationship with every cell in the same column - a list in each direction! So tables are good when the data can be arranged in a grid, and simple bulleted lists are best where there is less structure available - as in the individual lists I suggested above. I hope that makes sense - if not, prod me again and I'll see if I can unpick it further for you. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 00:41, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

This Month in Education: October 2012

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Not doing reverts - what do you mean?

Hi RexxS, I haven't done any reverts, I don't even know how to do a revert. What specifically are you referring to on Montana page. I don't know if this is the place to contact you or if I did it correctly here? Or how you contact me. Still a newbie. Jefferson Franklin (talk) 00:28, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jefferson Franklin. Yes this is the right place to contact me, and you've done exactly right in raising your concerns with me directly here.

A revert is when you change an article back to a previous state, usually removing some else's edit. Have a look at this:

• You added the American Redoubt link to the See also section of Montana when you made this edit.
• Montanabw reverted your addition of the link with this edit. In the edit summary she called it a "laundry list ref" - meaning that it is one of an almost inexhaustible number of possible links that could be added, but that they are only tangentially related to Montana. We obviously can't have an unlimited number of links, so we only put ones that are most relevant to Montana there, i.e. Outline of Montana, which is the introductory overview article, and Index of Montana-related articles which is a collection of relevant articles.

All of that is normal editing on Wikipedia: one person makes a change; another reverses it. However, if the first person disagree, then they should discuss it at the article talk page - see WP:BRD for a fuller description of our Bold-Revert-Discuss cycle.

• Unfortunately, you then re-inserted the link in this edit, rather than discussing it.

That is how an edit-war starts, and then the article could theoretically oscillate between your version and Montanabw's version forever, so we forbid that. I left that note for you to warn you that editors who exceed three reverts in 24 hours will be blocked. It's what we call a 'bright line' and mustn't be crossed. Nevertheless, we want to find a consensus a lot sooner than that, so I wanted to encourage you to look at what Montanabw wrote on your talk page, and to understand how we can avoid edit-wars. If you still think that the link is suitable for the article, then make a post at the bottom of the article talk page, Talk:Montana, and explain why. Perhaps you already understand the 'laundry list' argument and you don't need to do that, but the process is the same whenever you find yourself in that same position. I hope that all makes a bit more sense to you now, but feel free anyway to drop me note here if I can help explain anything else for you. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 01:29, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, got it. I didn't consciously revert. However I think I may have had the document in "Alt-Shift-e" edit mode under a two different tabs in Firefox. Then hit " Then hit, "Alt-Shift-s" without thinking by force of habit. Otherwise, has no idea how they would revert. Late night tiredness mess up on my part probably. Sorry.

Need Your Opinion on Something

Which of these climate charts look better? This one or this one? I perfer the former as it is less tacky, has more information and is easier to read. The latter is the standard one to use. What do you think? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I was refered to you by User:Gerda Arendt. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 22:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Homer, nice to hear from you. If you remember, I'm getting old now and my eyesight isn't what it used to be. I appreciate what the editor was trying to do in the Stephens City table - use colour to reinforce the values - but it actually makes it very hard for me to read. Several of those cells fail even WCAG AA standard for colour contrast (see WP:COLOR for details of accessibility requirements on Wikipedia). I agree with your preference, the Ottawa table is easier for me to read (although I'd prefer a larger font-size, it's not too inconvenient to increase the browser zoom and find the place again). I've been somewhat precipitous and set the text in the Ottawa, Kansas #Climate table back to normal size as it works all the way down to 1024x768. If you don't like it, please feel free to revert me - I won't be offended. But it really looks so much better to me at normal font size. Anyway, if you need any help to persuade others that WP:COLOR is worth implementing in articles, let me know. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I like the larger size on the Ottawa article, stays uniform with the text size of the rest of the page. I am highly considering taking this over to the Stephens City article (my work-in-ever-progress). I would be glad to ask WP:COLOR if this is worth converting on all the other pages, but I suspect it would go before the entire community for a !vote since it is such a large undertaking across tens of thousands of articles. But I will definitely keep you in mind in case they need more persuading. :) Thanks for your help. Take Care...Neutralhomer • Talk • 04:52, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Updated the Stephens City page with the new climate chart box. What do you think? - Neutralhomer • Talk • 02:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Sellers discog

Hi RexxS, we have listed Sellers again at FLC as it was not promoted due to a technicality. We would really appreciate a re-visit if that's at all possible. There are no new additions to the article so it should just be a quick refresher and then a show of support or oppose. Many thanks once again, hope your well  :-) -- Cassianto^Talk 10:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Cassianto, I've left a comment at the FLC page. There's a little bit to do, so ping me for my support when you've had a think about what I've said there. --RexxS (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that RexxS. I think I get the gist of it. I'll work on it right away, All the best! -- Cassianto^Talk 11:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

request

Hey RexxS .. Hopefully you know who I am - although I admit we haven't interacted a lot. Anyway - I saw a post from NYB here, and decided to do just that. Could I talk you into considering doing such work? I know you to be an honest person with a ton of integrity - and I would appreciate your efforts in this venue. Think about it? — ChedZILLA 03:01, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Chedzilla, Indeed I do know who you are! I think you and my pet dinosaur, T-RexxS (rawr), have a mutual friend in Bishzilla, and I have a great deal of respect for your master, Ched. I am recently retired so have more time on my hands, but I intend to spend any increased wiki-time on trying to improve our training efforts for editors here in the UK. My fellow trustees on the WMUK Board have given me the responsibility for education and training and I'm trying to build a team to take us forward. I wouldn't find the time for any other wiki-work, and although I'm grateful for your kind words, I don't think a non-admin would stand a realistic chance in an ArbCom election anyway. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 11:07, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

'tis the season

treats for integrity ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:AN

And you, too, are somewhat involved in this WP:AN section, which I have just posted. Bishonen | talk 23:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC).

Thank you, but I'm giving up the dramah boards for Lent Michaelmas. --RexxS (talk) 19:53, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Table captions

Hi. A valid question has been raised at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Data_tables_tutorial#Table_captions, could you have a look? Thanks friend. :-) Dodoïste (talk) 14:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the OP and have commented there, cher ami. --RexxS (talk) 19:53, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

The Omen

Thanks. I just call 'em as I see 'em - guy is by no means a saint (but then who is, other than...erm...saints), but he isn't the Antichrist either. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:13, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome Elen. You should try to make one of our wikimeetups if you ever get the chance, especially if we can persuade Malleus to make another appearance - he's always great value in a social setting. --RexxS (talk) 22:54, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Upgrading of the CMAS * Star Diver article

RexxS, CMAS 1 Star training by diving clubs may be the practice in Europe but in other parts of the world delivery of 1 star training is also carried out by instructor organisations who are CMAS Technical Committee affiliates or who are recognised by the National Federation. An example of the FIRST is CMAS-ISA (http://www.cmas.co.za/Default.aspx) who is a CMAS Technical Committee affiliate and whose website has no mention of clubs. To my eyes, CMAS-ISA looks like an instructor organisation. An example of the SECOND is Scuba Educators International (SEI); 3 links follow below for your information. The first link below describes the relationship between SEI and the Underwater Society of America (USA) including the agreed award equivalencies; the second link is a student registration form that includes space for ordering CMAS certificates and the third link is the SEI request form to became a CMAS instructor: http://www.seidiving.org/about-us/organizational-standards/, http://www.seidiving.org/clientuploads/Student%20Cert%20and%20Roster%20Form%20March%202011.pdf and http://www.seidiving.org/clientuploads/CMAS%20Instructor%20Request.pdf. I have personal experience of the second option above - I have 4 CMAS certificates issued by the Australian Underwater Federation (AUF) for training conducted by others. The AUF ceased its club-based training scheme in 1975 (after 13 years of operation) and then commenced a program of recognition of training provided by agencies such as AUSI, FAUI and NAUI. I would suggest the following revision which includes all 4 modes of training delivery: “CMAS * training is available from two sources. Firstly, from national diving federations affiliated to the CMAS Technical Committee using their member diving clubs, their member instructors where the federation is an instructor organisation or by agreement with independent underwater diving training organizations via direct use of CMAS training materials or by equivalency. Secondly, training at specially-accredited dive centers known as CMAS Dive Centers (CDC) who use dedicated CMAS training materials and who directly issue CMAS diving certificates.” Cowdy001 (talk) 12:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

That sounds very good to me, Cowdy. It used to be the case in the UK that CMAS training was delivered by BSAC, a single entity with numerous branches. It is now provided by the SAA, which is a federation of independent clubs, so I'm quite used to different modes of delivery of the same training. I would be more than happy to see you expand the article in the way you outline (and well done on the expansion so far!) - I only intervened because I though it was a backward step to remove the mention of dive clubs providing the training. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 17:51, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I have updated the article as discussed, although it may require further work as the Standard apparently was upgraded this year. I have a question & a suggestion. The question - are there any infobox box templates appropriate for use on this article? The suggestion - when upgrading the article, I thought the appropriate location for the information re the delivery of CMAS training should probably be in a new article about the CMAS International Diver Training Certification System. This may be an appropriate action when concerning the activity over the last 24 hours on the CMAS article. I will add a comment to the CMAS article talk page in respect to this matter.Cowdy001 (talk) 20:51, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Cowdy. My usual recommendation for infoboxes is to use the most generic one that does the job that you want (because the popular infoboxes are well-maintained). In this case, though, there is no generic Template:Infobox qualification, or Template:Infobox certification, or Template:Infobox training. You could browse through Category:Infobox templates to see if one shows up that I don't know, but it is possible that you may have to create your own infobox template by using Template:Infobox as the basis. If you do decide to go down that route, let me know and I'll try to sandbox one for you to try out.

My initial reaction to a CMAS International diver training certification system article is that it probably belongs in the main CMAS article as an important section. I usually prefer to expand existing articles to make them comprehensive, and only split off daughter articles if the parent article grows too large. The guidelines at Wikipedia:Article size and Wikipedia:Splitting give good advice and I'd recommend having a look at them if you haven't already done. --RexxS (talk) 22:52, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

WAI-ARIA news

Hi RexxS ! The user Tpt made a patch in Gerrit, he added a few WAI-ARIA roles attributes. He is asking us to review his changes, unfortunately I'm not familiar with WAI-ARIA. Are you familiar with it, or do you know someone who is? Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Accessibility#WAI-ARIA_in_MediaWiki. Cheers, Dodoïste (talk) 16:52, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dodoïste. I'm aware of WAI-ARIA, but have little experience in implementing it, as I am rather old-fashioned in preferring simple design in web-pages to the so-called "rich applications". I do understand, though, that it is an attractive direction for designers to move in, so it is very important that WAI-ARIA is taken seriously, otherwise we will end up with web pages that have enhanced functionality, but are inaccessible for a minority. If it's any use to you, I found the Primer most helpful: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-primer/ - there's a link to the overview which leads you to the other other documents. I'll have an ask-around to see if I can find anybody who's done work on it. By the way, Tpt (Thomas) is a native french-speaker, so you could chat with him - I spotted that on his userpage on Wikidata. --RexxS (talk) 19:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion and the links. Ah, yes, I felt like I saw Tpt somewhere before, did not remember where. Cheers, Dodoïste (talk) 14:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Please stop inserting line breaks between comments in threaded discussion. Every time you do that, it begins a new definition list and makes it really unpleasant for anyone using a screen reader. If you want to see what I mean examine the source code in your browser from Byford Dolphin before and after I removed the line breaks. --RexxS (talk) 16:16, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks. But, I don't understand what you mean. First, lots of people insert line breaks when responding to a post above their post. Don't they? (For example, I just did it here above, when I replied to you.) Second, I viewed that link that you posted here, but I saw no difference at all: the material on the left side of the screen looked exactly like the material on the right side. So, I was not sure what I was supposed to be looking at. Please clarify. Thanks! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:48, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I've replied at length on your talk page. Hope that helps. --RexxS (talk) 21:09, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for the explanation. But, I honestly don't actually understand. Is not it pretty common to include a blank line, when responding to a Talk Page post? I can't imagine that I am the only one who does it? When I responded to you just now, I left a blank (white space) line between your post and my reply post. I always do that. Is that what we are talking about ... or something else altogether? I am totally confused. Please let me know at my Talk Page. Thanks! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:47, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's what he's talking about. No, it isn't very common - look at other discussions. Please just stop doing it. Hope that's clear. Johnbod (talk) 18:24, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Johnbod, it's very common – as even RexxS himself admits. Which is exactly why I asked for clarification. Also, I am not sure as to how or why you are involved in our conversation. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 10:18, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Joseph, I expect Johnbod watches RexxS's page, just as I do. What's more, all conversations on Wikipedia are public, that's how a wiki works. As for how common it is, well, I can't say I've seen it that much (certainly not millions of times all over Wikipedia!) - though I didn't realise it was quite such an issue. Whether it's common or not isn't really the issue, the issue is that it is causing problems. Are you still confused about what problems it's causing? Worm^TT(talk) 10:22, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Worm^TT. (1) Yes, I am aware of how a wiki works. I am aware that all of these conversations are "out there", in the public. However, I don't think that I have encountered a "private" conversation (between another editor and me, on our Talk Pages) that was randomly and arbitrarily interrupted by another third party (such as in this case, with Johnbod). (2) In regards to whether or not I understand the issue, this conversation above is only one excerpt. The full conversation is located on my Talk Page (not this Talk Page). There, User RexxS answered my questions and clarified matters for me. (3) Yes, it's quite common, as even User RexxS concedes. As explained on my Talk Page, I picked some random Talk Page (for the "soap" article) ... and this "issue" was present there numerous times. I assume if I looked at other random articles, this "issue" would likewise appear with great frequency and regularity. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:44, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry you don't understand, but I am unable to make it any clearer than this:

• If you put a blank line in between posts in a threaded discussion, you make it very unpleasant for visually-impaired readers who use a screen reader.

It's not common because editors who have the problem they cause for others explained to them usually avoid doing it afterwards.

That is what we are talking about, and I'm asking you to stop doing it. In particular, I'd like you to stop making edits where the only thing you do is introduce this problem.

P.S. Never refactor other peoples' comments at another user's talk page. Thanks. --RexxS (talk) 21:54, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Truth be told, I still don't understand the problem. Millions of people all over Wikipedia place a blank line when they are responding to other posts. So, I am not sure why my miniscule number of edits here and there is an issue. I just selected a random Talk Page ... namely, the Talk Page for the article "Soap". See here: Talk:Soap. I looked at all of the entries on that Talk Page. Virtually all of them have a blank line inserted between different replies. So, once again, I am not sure what the problem is. And, since this happens all over Wikipedia (by millions of other editors, with millions of other edits), I am not sure why my miniscule number of edits (in the grand picture of the entire Wikipedia site) has become an issue at all. Please explain. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:33, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand what you don't understand. Lots of Wikipedia pages cause problems for disabled readers, and lots of uninformed editors contribute to that, but that doesn't make it right, does it? This is what a screen reader user hears when they encounter the last comment you made here: "definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, Truth be told ...". Is that really what you want to inflict on blind visitors? --RexxS (talk) 01:11, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. So, are you saying that an editor's typing one blank line of white space (i.e., hitting the Enter key only once between entries) creates six of those phrases being repeated ("definition list one item, definition")? Am I understanding that correctly? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:06, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes I am saying that in the case above your typing one blank line of white space (i.e., hitting the Enter key only once between entries) creates six of those phrases being repeated ("definition list one item, definition"). You are now indeed understanding that correctly at last. But it's not sinking in, of course, because the blank line you inserted above creates "definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, definition list one item, definition, Thanks. So, are you saying ...". To save you from asking, that's ONE blank line of yours and EIGHT lots of "definition list one item, definition". Have you spotted a pattern yet? --RexxS (talk) 15:31, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello. Thanks. Well, I am not trying to give you a hard time. Nor am I trying to make life (Wikipedia life, at least) any harder on blind readers. However, that being said ... it really seems to me like the problem is with the computer software (or whatever), and not with me. I mean ... cripes ... why on earth would "they" (the computer programmers) insert 6 or 8 or 10 of those phrases per one blank line? That seems to be the real issue, no? Not my typing in a random blank line here or there ... amidst millions of other editors doing exactly the same thing. Why can't they fix the "real" problem (i.e., the computer software that injects 6, 8, or 10 repetitions of that phrase per every one blank line typed by me or by any other editor)? I would assume that I (me, personally) am merely one drop in a huge bucket ...no? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:55, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

And, by the way, does this problem happen with any and every blank line typed in Wikipedia? Or just when a blank line precedes a comment that contains a (various) number of colons to signify indentations? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

It's only when the blank line precedes the commas that produce indentation. In the old days we didn't have a simple mechanism in html for producing consistent indents, and the "definition list" markup was used to indent paragraphs (that's the <dl>...</dl> and <dd>...</dd> above). The blank line forces the software to finish the previous list and start a new list, so the result is that it unindents X times and then indents again X+1 times. If you don't have the blank line, then the previous list continues (with just one extra level of indent). That's the software we have and what we work with. As you say, you're just one drop, but unfortunately the bucket of inaccessibility has been filled one drip at a time. --RexxS (talk) 21:35, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. I see what you mean. I will try my best to break this old habit. I was unaware of all of the above ramifications. Thanks again. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Collecting thoughts

Thank you for the image for collecting thoughts ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:46, 10 November 2012 (UTC)