Teavannaa
Welcome!
editHello, Teavannaa, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or , and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:37, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
You wouldn't happen to know about any WP:Reliable sources we could use? History books, that sort of thing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:54, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Grabergs - I do have several books that I'm currently going through - once I get a chance, I'll help update the article with actual references! Teavannaa (talk) 15:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you manage to do that, you're a hero! It seems to me that there must be WP:RS in Turkish, but none seems to have made their way into English. Do you have an opinion on if this [1] is related to "our" Halime or a different one? You'd think that if she was connected to the famous Ertuğrul they'd mention it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Btw, if you want, consider clicking your redlinked username and type/save anything and so create a userpage. A blue-linked userpage signals to other editors that you're not that much a newbie ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:21, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- You are so kind and welcoming - thank you! School’s almost out and I’m planning on devoting a good amount of time to the Halime Hatun page and other Ottoman pages in the very near future. :) I’ll work on my red username, too, hahah! I’ll check out that article you linked and get back to you :) Cheers!! Teavannaa (talk) 08:15, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
- It's good to know that there's at least one editor of that page that finds me kind and welcoming! I have the impression that I have sometimes clashed with Diriliş: Ertuğrul/Esra Bilgiç fans. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:09, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- No luck? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:53, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- So many unexpected real-life plot twists came up over the summer (Ha!!!) so I hardly had any time to go over the sources I've gotten, but I'm back up to it now! I'm aiming for this weekend to start at least! Thanks for checking up & keeping me on it Teavannaa (talk) 17:24, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for keeping an eye on the article. If I'm the only one reverting stuff I may get too close to WP:EDITWARRING / WP:OWN, so more eyes are welcome. If you're interested, there's probably articles at Category:Diriliş: Ertuğrul characters that could use improvement too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:55, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
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The Citation Barnstar |
| This makes me so happy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:05, 7 September 2019 (UTC) |
- How sweet is that?! Thank you! If it wasn't for your encouragement I wouldn't have been so intent on "fixing" these Ottoman articles! More citations/edits to come :) Teavannaa (talk) 01:10, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Take a look at that, you are not always using it quite right, like [2]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:55, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for letting me know! I'll be sure to be more careful next time. Some of these "edits" are frustrating! Teavannaa (talk) 22:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Huh
editJust found Diriliş: Ertuğrul on youtube with English subtitles. I might learn some history. I wonder if this has something to do with the spiking number of viewers of the Ertuğrul/Halime articles. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:10, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
- The English subs (done by fan groups) have been up, for all seasons, on different sites since last year (which is how I watched it!) The show is wonderful but almost completely fictionalized, which is to be expected, as the head writer himself said he had to "daydream" the stories due to an extreme lack of source material. Teavannaa (talk) 15:15, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Can you link me to the "daydream" comment? Sounds useful. I've edited Diriliş: Ertuğrul a bit, found some good English sources. The "Islamic message" thing could be expanded on, and I saw an interesting comment about women in the series. Nobody has tried a "Historicity" section yet (guidance at WP:FILMHIST), but I haven't found much on that. Of course, one purpose of this series is to "aim to strengthen the nationhood sentiment of Turkish people." It seems to have done something like that, perhaps even more. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sure! Here: https://www.cuneytpolat.com/mehmet-bozdag-her-sey-bir-ruya-ile-basladi/ QUESTION: "In the show, do you reflect history as it really happened? There are many people asking this question. Did you present the show with the concern of 'reflect the history as it is' when you started the project?" ANSWER (Mehmet Bozdag, head writer, head producer/director): "An artist's task is to reconstruct history. The history changes with the opinion of the author. And for one thing, there is very little information about the period we are presenting - not exceeding 4-5 pages. Even the names are different in every source. The first works written about the establishment of the Ottoman State were written about 100-150 years after the its establishment. There is no certainty in this historical data. But history has a soul. We think that we describe the spirit of the 13th century in history. We are shaping a story by dreaming." Teavannaa (talk) 01:23, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think I'll add that to the production section, we'll see if it sticks. Is this your translation, GT or something else? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- OK, not GT, sorry for the insult. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- LOL, no offense taken, of course - I don't know the language and have been relying on dictionaries and grammar lessons! It's a good bit to add to that section, for sure. Teavannaa (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- I added it. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the article protection(s) end. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- New addition: "Journalist Aimun Faisal writes in Dawn that "[Esra Bilgiç] was the ultimate Pakistani, male fantasy. A miracle happened and she became real. Now Pakistani men do not know how to deal with the paradox of the dichotomy their misogyny had created.".[1] On social media, Bilgiç was lectured by Pakistani fans on the subject of religion.[18]" To quote Faisal, this is hilarious. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- It certainly is, and it's extremely creepy, too; I wonder how long it'll take for the endless stream of random IPs to start "editing" again?! Teavannaa (talk) 01:16, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- There's always WP:RPP if it gets too annoying again. Per the graph on Talk:Diriliş: Ertuğrul, there's a lot of readers. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:18, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Well, that addition wasn't popular. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Bwah, what happened? I've been out of the loop; need to catch back up in the coming days Teavannaa (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- See Talk:Diriliş:_Ertuğrul#Controversial_statements and the article history. Seems WP:IDONTLIKEIT to me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:16, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know if you saw Analysis: Ertugrul and the lure of Turkish dramas in Pakistan, it was pretty good. I wonder if Haaretz has written anything? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- Bwah, what happened? I've been out of the loop; need to catch back up in the coming days Teavannaa (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- It certainly is, and it's extremely creepy, too; I wonder how long it'll take for the endless stream of random IPs to start "editing" again?! Teavannaa (talk) 01:16, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- New addition: "Journalist Aimun Faisal writes in Dawn that "[Esra Bilgiç] was the ultimate Pakistani, male fantasy. A miracle happened and she became real. Now Pakistani men do not know how to deal with the paradox of the dichotomy their misogyny had created.".[1] On social media, Bilgiç was lectured by Pakistani fans on the subject of religion.[18]" To quote Faisal, this is hilarious. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- I added it. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the article protection(s) end. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- LOL, no offense taken, of course - I don't know the language and have been relying on dictionaries and grammar lessons! It's a good bit to add to that section, for sure. Teavannaa (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sure! Here: https://www.cuneytpolat.com/mehmet-bozdag-her-sey-bir-ruya-ile-basladi/ QUESTION: "In the show, do you reflect history as it really happened? There are many people asking this question. Did you present the show with the concern of 'reflect the history as it is' when you started the project?" ANSWER (Mehmet Bozdag, head writer, head producer/director): "An artist's task is to reconstruct history. The history changes with the opinion of the author. And for one thing, there is very little information about the period we are presenting - not exceeding 4-5 pages. Even the names are different in every source. The first works written about the establishment of the Ottoman State were written about 100-150 years after the its establishment. There is no certainty in this historical data. But history has a soul. We think that we describe the spirit of the 13th century in history. We are shaping a story by dreaming." Teavannaa (talk) 01:23, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Can you link me to the "daydream" comment? Sounds useful. I've edited Diriliş: Ertuğrul a bit, found some good English sources. The "Islamic message" thing could be expanded on, and I saw an interesting comment about women in the series. Nobody has tried a "Historicity" section yet (guidance at WP:FILMHIST), but I haven't found much on that. Of course, one purpose of this series is to "aim to strengthen the nationhood sentiment of Turkish people." It seems to have done something like that, perhaps even more. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- It seems Dawn liked your translation above:[3] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:23, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's pretty cool! I'm glad we're keeping an eye on these pages, particularly the ones on the actual historical figures from the show, especially now since the show's popularity is surging at the moment! Teavannaa (talk) 18:48, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's not quite Wikipedia:List of citogenesis incidents, but pretty close. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:31, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- Bilgic's fans under discussion again, if you have an opinion: [4]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:19, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- It's not quite Wikipedia:List of citogenesis incidents, but pretty close. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:31, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's pretty cool! I'm glad we're keeping an eye on these pages, particularly the ones on the actual historical figures from the show, especially now since the show's popularity is surging at the moment! Teavannaa (talk) 18:48, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- It seems Dawn liked your translation above:[3] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:23, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
I found this on Quora (not WP:RS) [5]: "I have not watched the show so I do not know the details. However, I will give you the relevant parts about Ertuğrul Gazi from Aşıkpaşazade’s Tevârihi Âl-i Osman: The History Of the House Of Osman. This 15th Century history book is the earliest source about Ertuğrul Gazi to the best of my knowledge:" May be something to look into. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:00, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Ahmedi's Iskendername, from the late 14th C, actually contains the first short mentions on Ertugrul. Asikpasazahde, Nesri, and others, from later, have a tiny bit more. But nothing substantial on him and nothing at all regarding Ertugrul's family, other than Osman being his son and in some chronicles, Gunduz and Savci as his other sons. There is a Turkish doctoral student studying early Ottoman history who is writing a series about the chronicles and Ertugrul over on FB, and there is a push for her to publish it to a wider audience when she's done....hopefully she will! Teavannaa (talk) 15:15, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- An editor introduced an interesting source at Ertuğrul; I hope it will stand some scrutiny. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- This article says that Her origins are unknown; she is variously referred to as "Hayma Ana"[1] and "Khaimah" in later legends,<ref name="mahzun">{{cite book |last1=Güler |first1=Turgut |title=Mahzun Hududlar Çağlayan Sular |publisher=Ötüken Neşriyat A.Ş. |quote=In the tomb’s garden, there is a grave belonging to Ertuğrul’s wife, Halime Hâtûn. However, here there must be some information mistakes. The name of the esteemed woman who was the wife of Ertuğrul Gâzi and mother of Osman Gâzi is “Hayme Ana”, and her grave is in the Çarşamba village of Kütahya’s Domaniç district. Sultan Abdülhamid II, who had the Ertuğrul Gâzi Tomb repaired, also had the Hayme Ana Tomb as good as rebuilt in the same years.108.18.143.93 (talk) 00:07, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- This REF should be added since it gives a full discussion, if her identity is UNKOWN[1] let people read the discussion here, so you should give a link to your UNKNOWN like MOTHER OF OSMAN[1].108.18.143.93 (talk) 00:09, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- You need to STOP REMOVING SOURCED CONTENT. You removed this link, which points to an official document discussing the fact that Hayme Hatun's husband/Ertugrul's father is recognized to be Gunduz Alp: https://www.kulturportali.gov.tr/Common/DownloadFile.aspx?f=HaymeAnaBrosuru_20160408145308672.pdf As for "Halime Hatun" Necdet Sakaoglu acknowledges that Osman's mother has not been mentioned in any of the written histories, and doesn't mention her. There are 19th century "rumors" according to some that Osman's mother may have been Hayme Hatun, but again, NONE of this is written in any of the Ottoman chronicles, but transmitted by oral legends hundreds and hundreds of years later. The official expedition ordered by Sultan Abdulhamid in the 1890s was to discover/recover the tomb of Ertugrul's MOTHER. As for Ertugrul's father, the coins minted by Osman PROVE that he was GUNDUZ ALP. This is also the official narrative of the nation. As for Halil Inalcik, he is the most renowned Ottoman historian of the last century and he had, in the past, expressed doubts regarding the genealogies as presented in the chronicles. At any rate, please stop removing sourced content; you're approaching edit-warring. Adding sources to illustrate different views is great, but selectively removing some altogether (for what reason?) is simply wrong. Teavannaa (talk) 03:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- EDIT: to the anon IP above (108.18.143.93) - the response above was meant for another IP, not you! Sorry! Teavannaa (talk) 03:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Future Afd:s
editThey are tricky to do right "by hand". If you do any more, I recommend WP:TWINKLE. I tried making one with that, and it wasn't harder than citing with reftoolbar. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:41, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks! Will do! It's all new to me! :P Teavannaa (talk) 15:30, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
Please can you have a look at my edits to the page, maybe you will reconsider the nomination for deletion tag? Limorina (talk) 19:11, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Limorina! I'm leaning toward *keep* now, but will look at it more closely in a bit. I will help rewrite the article a bit further, and then hopefully the others will decide :) Teavannaa (talk) 15:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
References
edit- ^ a b c Sakaoğlu, Necdet [in Turkish] (2008). Bu mülkün kadın sultanları: Vâlide sultanlar, hâtunlar, hasekiler, kadınefendiler, sultanefendiler. Oğlak Yayıncılık. pp. 25–27. ISBN 978-9-753-29623-6..
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