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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Operation Retribution (1941)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 10:14, 19 August 2018 [1].

Operation Retribution (1941)

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the German bombing of Belgrade which heralded the Axis invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941. Over two days, damage was caused to about one quarter of the city, up to 4,000 were killed, and Yugoslav military command and control was paralysed, contributing to the swift defeat of the Royal Yugoslav Army over the following fortnight. The principal Luftwaffe commander, Alexander Löhr, was executed after the war for his part in Operation Retribution. This article recently went through a Milhist A-Class review. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank

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  • Tripartite Pact says: "Yugoslavia's accession provoked a coup d'état in Belgrade two days later, and Italy and Germany responded by invading Yugoslavia". The first sentence in this article uses "retaliation". It's above my pay grade to pick the language, but I'd be more comfortable if there's a discussion about whether "response" or "retaliation" is best, and if the language is consistent across articles. I know there's no perfect answer, because some readers take a word like "retaliation" to be damning, and others take it to be exculpatory.
  • Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. Well done. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 18:21, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • G'day Dan, thanks for the c/e. Regarding your comment above, what I am trying to convey is that the bombing of Belgrade was basically in retaliation for the coup (as ordered by Hitler, explained in the body), the actual invasion was a strategic response to the coup. I hope I'm not parsing this too finely. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Indy beetle

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Great work as always, PM. My comments:

  • Might as well mention Alexander Löhr by name in the lead.
  • Done.
  • Some generic info on the pre-war strength of the VVKJ, if available, would make for a nice addition.
  • Done.
  • According to Uki Goñi (The Real Odessa: How Perón Brought the Nazi War Criminals to Argentina p. 236), Vladimir Kren pointed out targets in Belgrade that he thought the Germans should bomb specifically
  • Added.
  • Were there any civilian preparations for the bombing, such as air raid sirens or shelters?
  • mentioned info about the locations of civilian shelters, but other than that, not anything I could find.
  • It should be stated that the attack forced the government to flee the city (War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941–1945: Occupation and Collaboration p. 50).
  • Done.
  • Aside from the rubble collection, were there any reconstruction or repair efforts?
  • I remember reading somewhere that there wasn't really much done until after the war, but can't place my finger on where.
  • Is there any background on the political decisions that led to the British retaliation on Sofia?
  • Not that I've seen, but I added that Knell considers the justification for them "strange and implausible".
  • Was the "official casualty figure" a Yugoslav or German calculation?
  • It was from the occupation authorities, which were a puppet regime appointed and supervised by German military headquarters. Added a bit to clarify.
  • The article has a photo of the monument to the VVKJ's vain defence of the city. Is there any textual information on commemoration of the bombing?
  • Good point. I found a B92 article about the 75th anniversary service in 2016 and added it.
  • Kren was executed by the Yugoslavs in 1948 for a myriad of offenses. Is it worth mentioning this as well?
  • Now added (not by me).

-Indy beetle (talk) 14:51, 14 July 2018 (UTC) G'day Indy beetle, all done I think, let me know if you think anything further is needed? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:16, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All my comments have been addressed. 'Twas a pleasure to read. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:12, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:39, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from 23 editor

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A bit short, imo. Could be expanded with Vladimir Terzic's book . 23 editor (talk) 20:53, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

G'day 23 editor. Kicking myself for not checking Terzic before nominating. I have added a bit from him here and there, but he deals with it in a very general way, and doesn't say a lot that isn't already in the article. It is good that he agrees exactly with the number of bombers in the first wave though, which is a good sign the other sources are accurate. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:26, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The background section could use some info on the state of the Yugoslav Air Force. I recall reading that it was plagued by fuel shortages, a lack of spare parts, reduced flying hours, etc. The intro could also be expanded. I think info regarding Kren's betrayal, the state of the Yugoslav Air Force, and the fact that Belgrade was an open city is currently lacking. 23 editor (talk) 19:52, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The open city and Kren's betrayal were already covered, although his later execution for unrelated crimes was not (and now is, thanks). I've added material on the overall strength of the VVKJ, and the strength of the 1st Fighter Brigade (which was the relevant formation). Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:38, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
G'day 23 editor Anything else you think needs adding, tweaking? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:54, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Support. 23 editor (talk) 17:08, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Ian

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Recusing from coord duties...

  • Copyedited as usual so pls let me know any concerns there. Outstanding prose points:
    • "Two weeks later, Bulgaria joined, and the next day, German troops entered Bulgaria from Romania" -- if you're going to say "the next day" I think you should spell out the date Bulgaria joined instead of saying "two weeks later".
      • Done.
    • "anti-aircraft defenses" -- date format is British, so should it be BritEng ("defences")?
      • Many hands etc. Fixed.
    • "74 Junkers Ju 87 Stuka dive bombers, and 160 Heinkel He 111 medium bombers and Dornier Do 17 light bombers at 8,000–10,000 feet (2,400–3,000 m). They were escorted by Messerschmitt Bf 110 heavy fighters at 11,000–12,000 feet (3,400–3,700 m) and 100 Messerschmitt Bf 109E fighters " -- just want to confirm there's no breakdown of He 111s vs. Do 17s, or the number of Bf 110s?
      • No, the totals are recorded in sources, but not the breakdown.
    • "the squadron conducted raids on 6–7 April and 12–13 April" -- can we assume these were night raids, in which case it should be "6/7" and "12/13"?
      • I looked again at the source (Knell), but it isn't made obvious (they given the dates as 6-7 and 12-13, but that is probably a formatting difference between them and WP). Shores, Cull and Malizia don't even mention these raids. I think it is a reasonable assumption they were night raids given they were British and early in the war, and given the way the dates were presented in the source. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:24, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I felt the article was succinct but quite comprehensive, I'll wait and see the outcome of 23 Editor's suggestion of another source. For that reason I won't look at any kind of source review yet.
    • I've added some material from Terzic but it wasn't a massive amount of new material. Much of it confirms material from other sources already used.
  • I'll take Nikki's image review as read.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:16, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

G'day Ian Rose, all done I think. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:24, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tks PM, I've reviewed changes/additions since I last edited and tweaked a bit. One thing in that area:
  • "The historian Herman Knell calls the retaliatory justification for [the RAF raids on Bulgaria] 'strange and implausible'" -- just for possible balance, any sources come out and say yes, the raids made some kind of sense?
  • G'day Ian, added a bit from Shores, Cull and Malizia, who indicate that they were more of an attack on the German lines of communication, and that there were other raids on Bulgaria during the Balkans Campaign. It may be that Knell is over-egging the pudding a bit, but I think the addition balances his view. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:17, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Source review:
    • I don't see any prima facie issues re. quality, though no harm in someone more familiar with the subject looking things over as well.
    • All links checked out except one, which I fixed.
    • Formatting looks okay.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: I reckon this one is good to go. Can I have a dispensation for a new nom please? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:29, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sure thing. --Laser brain (talk) 15:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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