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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Symphony No. 4 (Mahler)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Buidhe via FACBot (talk) 30 November 2021 [1].

Symphony No. 4 (Mahler)

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Nominator(s): GeneralPoxter (talk • contribs) 12:29, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Gustav Mahler's Fourth Symphony -- not his most famous symphony, but certainly a brilliant work. GeneralPoxter (talk • contribs) 12:29, 15 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Nikkimaria are you satisfied with the licensing now? (t · c) buidhe 00:24, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:56, 27 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sound files

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Coord note

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Approaching the three-week mark with no supports, this may be archived in the near future if we don't see momentum towards promotion. (t · c) buidhe 17:14, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed this. I'll review, tomorrow, I hope. Tim riley talk 21:32, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Tim for the review. Not really sure what to do about the image review or the score issue, but at least prose is something I can manage. I'll be addressing your comments soon. GeneralPoxter (talk • contribs) 21:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Support from Tim riley

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Despite a lifelong detestation of Mahler's symphonies I feel I must comment on this article, not least because I don't like to think what my Wikipedia mentor, Brian Boulton – a strong Mahler man – would have said if I didn't. I think BB would have broadly approved of this article and he would certainly have had more useful comments to make than I can offer. But here goes with my meagre gleanings:

  • However, the symphony's final form – this is the first of six "howevers" in the article, and in my view we could do without all six: they clog up the prose and add nothing of value.
  • Mahler later finished the Fourth during his summer vacation in Maiernigg the next year – the "later" is superfluous: summer the next year is self-evidently later.
  • The British premiere on 25 October 1905 was a Proms concert delivered by Henry Wood, who conducted the Queen's Hall Orchestra and his wife, Jessie Wood, as soprano. – That's the wrong wife. In 1905 Wood was still married to his first wife, Olga. After she died he married his secretary (a bad mistake) in 1911, and finally Jessie was his third partner calling herself "Lady Jessie Wood" but never actually his wife because wife number two refused a divorce. All of which is a long-winded way of saying that this should read something like "Henry Wood, who conducted the Queen's Hall Orchestra, with his wife, Olga Wood, as soprano". (That is what the source actually says, and the BBC Prom archive confirms it.) Tangentially, "delivered" seems a strange verb here, and to an English eye "a Proms concert" looks odd: one would expect either "at the Proms" or "at a Prom concert", but I do not press either point.
    • I was wondering whether you could provide the citation for these sources? I am convinced that what you claim is correct (since you worked on the FA after all), but a search for "Olga" in the original source (Mitchell 1999) doesn't return anything, while Mitchell explicitly claims that the soprano was "Jessie Wood" on page 553. I believe the most likely explanation here is that Mitchell made a mistake, in which case the source needs to be substituted with the ones you provided (rather than just assume Mitchell meant Olga). I rephrased the sentence as well. GeneralPoxter (talk • contribs) 13:14, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • nine concerts during which Mahler's complete opus was played for the first time – really everything he ever wrote? Or do you mean just the symphonies?
  • transferred to Boosey & Hawkes, but Boosey & Hawkes's 1943 edition – perhaps "the latter's" or "their" the second time?
  • For the complete discography, see Mahler Symphony No. 4 discography – my italics, meaning do you guarantee that our discography is in fact complete?
  • The symphony was first performed by boy soprano in 1983 – first performed on record or tout court? If the latter I think you need a very solid reference for such a sweeping statement.
    • The only other source I could scrounge for this is the one used by the James Westman article (So 1998) to substantiate its similar claim. However, nowhere in this source does it actually mention him being the first. Furthermore, the same source claims that he first performed with the Boston Youth Chamber Orchestra, meaning the performance with the BSO wouldn't even be the first tout court. If it's okay with you, I'll simply opt for removing this claim altogether. GeneralPoxter (talk • contribs) 13:14, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The piano and voice score of "Das himmlische Leben" was completed on 10 February 1892 while the orchestra and voice score was completed on 12 March 1892 – something done in Feb is not done while something is being done in March. A simple "and" (or semicolon) would be preferable to "while" here.

Those are my few comments. The article seems to me to cover the work fully and the prose serves its purpose. I expect to be adding my support at my next visit. Tim riley talk 00:39, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

All looking good. I'll be back (later today I hope) after a final read-through. Tim riley talk 08:56, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Meets all the FA criteria in my view. Tim riley talk 16:03, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Despite the unresolved problems with the sound templates? Graham Beards (talk) 16:04, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Have I misread the exchange? It looked to me, and still does, as though the matter is a technical one, not within the nominator's gift to influence. Or have I completely misunderstood? Tim riley talk 19:25, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A potential cause has been identified. What steps have been taken to fix the issue? We would not allow links to broken images. This article is not fit for the Main Page as it stands. Graham Beards (talk) 21:16, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see, and I may be wrong, this article (in my view) represents the best WP has to offer, and qualifies for FA. If WP has technical problems displaying it properly on certain browsers, that is not, I think, a reasonable pretext for opposing its promotion. Tim riley talk 23:47, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A task has been filed to address this issue. GeneralPoxter (talk • contribs) 00:25, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Aza24

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Looking now. Aza24 (talk) 22:04, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mirokado

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I'm very pleased to see this being proposed. Elly Ameling's recording with André Previn was my introduction to Mahler and remains one of my favourite recordings of anything.

In response to comments from others:

  • Midi extracts: using chrome on linux, the sound plays fine but the credits button in the dialog hangs forever (it is possible to close that tab and reload). As long as problems with this dialog are being raised, I don't see that we should throw away the midi links.
  • Inter-language links. I agree with Aza24 (above) that we should provide ills when available. Apart from offering background information to the interested reader, they are one way of suggesting needed articles.
    now added, thanks. --Mirokado (talk) 23:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

--Mirokado (talk) 14:02, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. --Mirokado (talk) 12:35, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerda

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Thank you for interesting expansion! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:12, 18 November 2021 (UTC) As usual, I skip the lead for last. I make copy-edits as I read, - revert what you don't like. The TOC reads fine, but I'd use Structure instead of Form.[reply]

Composition

Subsequent ...

Form

To be continued. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:14, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the responses, and all understood, thank you for actions. I hope to get to it later today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:06, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda Arendt Are you still planning to finish the review? (t · c) buidhe 13:23, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Planned yes, time no - on vacation, + two recent death articles to care for in the last 2 days, + "my" open FAC where this nominator's questions are waiting. I support this as it is and may return with minor questions independent of the FAC. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review — Pass

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References

Books

Other

Further reading

This version looked at. Looks pretty good. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GeneralPoxter, a couple minor comments above. --Usernameunique (talk) 02:31, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. GeneralPoxter (talk • contribs) 02:53, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:24, 30 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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