Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Talbot Tagora

Talbot Tagora

The article went through an internal WikiProject Automobiles and general peer review, and I guess the issues raised during these were resolved. This article covers probably close to all that can be said about the subject, and every bit of information is referenced. Please see whether you find that it meets the FA criteria. This is a self-nomination by Bravada, talk - 19:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support This article might just be the best referenced of all the Automobile articles, is free of any POV and rather comprehesive. The only problems are that the sections seem rather short and choppy which makes the article somewhat unactractive in terms of layout. Overall, however, it seems to meet the FA criteria. Signature ^brendel 23:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Work on finding non-fair-use photo or add fair use rationale; and as another user has pointed out, ensure references point to supporting source. Outriggr 20:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~"Weak" object~~ ~~Neutral~~. I agree that it is a very good article, ~~but I am objecting mostly on the grounds that it is hard for me to consider an article on the failed launch of a not-especially-notable vehicle as "Wikipedia's very best work" (criterion #1).~~ Areas for improvement:

PSA is not spelled out in full nor disambiguated in the intro paragraph, and is linked numerous times in the article;
image does not have fair use rationale;
the sentence "These were deemed too extravagant by American Chrysler management and were later changed to more conventional - both front and rear wheelarches were changed to squarish and the license plate was placed on the front bumper as in most cars." regards, Outriggr 05:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Outriggr, thanks for your review of the article! I let myself number your points to be able to answer them in a more convenient manner:

OMG, thanks a lot for pointing that one out. I don't know how it got away through all those peer reviews. Anyway, corrected now.
If you click on the image, it's description says "...promotional photograph (...) uploaded to illustrate the article on the subject..." - I take it is not a FU rationale then. I am clearly confused as to what is an FU rationale and would be most grateful if you could expand on that.
I am too involved with the article now and a non-native English speaker to add to that, so I really don't see at the first glance what is wrong with the sentence. If you could please bear with me and explain it in more detail, or even propose how it could be amended (not to mention being bold and actually editing it), I would be most grateful again.

As regards your major concern, well, we do have featured articles on computer game characters and an "an open-source OpenGL multiplayer 3D tank battle game", on a guy who claimed to be ""Emperor of these United States and Protector of Mexico" and on a constructed langauge with not more than 2500 speakers. I believe what should take precedence is the quality of the article, not one's perception of the "notability" or importance of the subject. If this article became FA, it could show that even some lesser topics can be covered in a really good way, and it could also serve as a good example for all articles on "ordinary" car models. This was my rationale for putting it up here. Bravada, talk - 09:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bravada. To respond to your points,

I am no expert on what constitutes fair use rationale, but have seen this subject brought up in FA reviews before, and I am not sure whether the sentence accompanying your image constitutes this "rationale".
The sentence has a dash in it that seems misplaced. How about, "These [objects] were deemed too extravagant by American Chrysler management, so were changed to have a more conventional style: [assuming this next part describes how they were changed:] both front and rear wheel arches [two words?] were changed to a squarer shape, and the license plate was placed on the front bumper as in most cars."
I guess my unstated point is that for articles that are on very narrow topics, like computer game characters, etc., "brilliant prose" is (or should be) a real necessity in making the article feature-worthy. Such prose would be hard to achieve in this article and I hope you won't hold it against me that I don't think the article has that shining prose. Outriggr 00:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responding, Outriggr. I will change the sentence following your suggestions in due course, or if you can do it first, I would be most obliged. As concerns FU rationale, you left me totally confused now - can you give an example of a proper FU rationale then? Coming to your third point - I can say that this article surely can't be accused of featuring "brilliant prose", as I wrote the overwhelming majority of it (though thanks to suggestions from other users it is far more bearable now). Nevertheless, I believe that FAs should be judged by the same standards REGARDLESS of the topic. This means that an article on the USA and on Talbot Tagora should be up to the same standard when they are FAs. If "brilliant prose" is required from the USA article, it should be required from the Talbot Tagora one. However, if there are FAs passed not displaying "brilliant prose", no other article should required to do so. Bravada, talk - 00:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I am certainly not the arbiter of what makes a good FA; just trying to contribute to the community. Regarding fair use rationale, here is an image I found from an FA that illustrates that: Image:Arrested_Development_cast_promo_photo.jpg. Let's see what other people have to say about your nomination! I will change my vote to neutral, as I admit that I can't spell out my opposition in a way that semantic police will not describe as against the spirit of the FA criteria. Outriggr 01:28, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The image in Arrested development is more likely to be 'fair use' because it's VERY difficult to find photos of cast members that are under an open license. Pictures of cars (even very specific car models) are two a penny. It's not a comparable situation.SteveBaker 04:08, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From the introduction: "It suffered a rather miserable fate, falling far short of sales expectations, which ended with an untimely demise as soon as in 1983." -- This seems a bit NPOV, was its demise 'untimely' or was it 'richly deserved'? That's a value judgement (and judging from the "What Car" review you quoted, it seems like 'richly deserved' is closer to the mark...but I don't think these kinds of judgement calls belong in the article. The quote from the reviewer is plenty damning. As for the Fair Use of the image - I have to say that there is no way you can consider this fair use - the copyright notice on that very image says "in the absence of free images that could serve such a purpose;" - so are you telling me that there are NO free images of a Talbot Tagora?! How hard have you tried? Someone told me a week ago that there were no free images of an AMC Matador. I went to eBay - found a car for sale - emailed the owner and asked nicely if I could use his photo for Wikipedia - and not only was he happy to provide it under any license I would name - he was actually flattered to be asked...and that was the very first person I asked! I've done the exact same thing to get photos for Mini and Mini Moke - I've NEVER been turned down by anyone I ever asked for permission to use their photos. So - no - there is no conceivable circumstance under which that image can be used under 'Fair use' unless maybe you are discussing the advertising brochure itself! SteveBaker 02:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Steve, thanks a lot for your review! Apart from those issues, what is your opinion of the article in general? As concerns images, finding a good image of Talbot Tagora that is not a manufacturer's or press photo is not that easy as it might seem, but I will do my best to do so as fast as I can. The sentence you mentioned is a clear example of what happens when an article has too little editors - I clearly got carried away and nobody noticed later on. The demise might be deemed "untimely", as no car that gets killed after only 3 model years and was made in less than 1/3 of planned annual production volume can be said to have departed timely IMHO, but I absolutely agree this is far from what one would expect from a good WikiPedia article. I'll try to improve that myself, but I would also appreciate that if you, as a native speaker and author of Featured Articles, give me a suggestion on how it could be done. Thanks a lot again! Bravada, talk - 12:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS. BTW, I think you meant POV, not NPOV, or am I misunderstanding your comment?

Sorry - yes - I did mean 'POV'. There are currently no Talbot Tagora's on sale on eBay - but there are about 150 images showing up in response to that search term on Google images. (That's an amazingly low number! People must be embarassed to own these things!) There is also a Simca/Talbot owner's club: [1] - which says that 'Club Simca France' has members with good examples of the car. Anyway - shooting off an email to the web site owners of the half dozen nicest photos ought to produce some results. Members of car clubs are fantastically vain about their cars and the idea that THEIR car would be the one that everyone sees as the idealised perfect car shown at the head of the Wikipedia article is absolutely irresistable to them! SteveBaker 19:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Object. In a citation spot check, four out of five references checked came up problematic (results here. That definitely needs to be addressed. Second, this needs a copyedit. --Robth^Talk 19:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- (Responding to a post on my talk page.)Citations look good now, although I haven't checked every single one; given how many were problematic in the ones I checked, it would be good if the nominator would check to make sure all the rest point right to a page containing the cited information. As to a copyedit: the problems here are varied; some outright grammatical errors, a substantial number of cases of choosing a vaguely wrong word (e.g. "Following the Horizon and Alpine experiences"--"following the model used for the production of the Horizon and Alpine" would be better there), a few clauses that just don't make sense (e.g. "which was now obviously available."--what does it mean to be 'obviously available?'). A number of sentences and paragraphs need to be rewritten. From the lead, for example, "The car was first presented in 1980 and ultimately launched commercially in 1981. It fell far short of sales expectations, which ended with it being cancelled as soon as in 1983." would be better as "The car was first presented in 1980 and launched commercially in 1981. Its sales fell far short of expectations, and the model was discontinued in 1983.", or something similar. A good copyeditor needs to go through this. It shouldn't take too long, since this is a short article, but it needs to be done. --Robth^Talk 02:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looks pretty good, though another picture or too would be welcomed. Karrmann 01:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]