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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Minnesota Vikings head coaches/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was archived by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 16 March 2024 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Minnesota Vikings head coaches

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List of Minnesota Vikings head coaches (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): – PeeJay 17:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because it has been 14 years since it was last nominated. The nomination only failed at the time because of the arbitrary ruling that seven items was not enough to constitute a valid content fork. However, the combination of the Vikings now having had 10 head coaches and that also no longer being a rule means it should pass easily this time. All of the Featured List criteria are satisfied. I look forward to seeing this pass as an FL soon. – PeeJay 17:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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  • "There have been ten head coaches in the history of the franchise" vs "Les Steckel has the worst winning percentage of the franchise's nine head coaches".......?
    • Good spot, thanks.
  • "On January 15, 2014, the Vikings appointed [....] and served...." - the Vikings did not serve
    • Reworded.
  • "Two days after he won the Super Bowl as the Los Angeles Rams" - wikilink both Super Bowl and Rams
    • Reworded and linked.
  • "making Grant the first head coach to lead teams to four Super Bowls, despite never winning one." - slightly vague wording here - was he the first HC to lead teams to four Super Bowls, or the first to lead teams to four Super Bowls but not win any of them?
    • It's the former. I'll work on rewording this.
  • "the team had their worst season to date, only managing to win three of their 16 games" - earlier you mentioned a season when they only won two games, surely that is worse?
    • The season when they won two games had fewer games in total, so the winning percentage was higher. I've clarified that the three-win season is their worst by win percentage.
      • Unless my long-ago A-level maths is massively failing me, 2 wins out of 14 games is a 14.3% winning percentage, and 3 wins out of 16 games is 18.8%, so the former is definitely worse......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:40, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Nope, you're right. For some reason, I thought it was 2 wins in a 12 game season, and that still isn't better. I think the fact we were actually going for was that the three-win season was the worst in a 16-game campaign. Now that the season is 17 games long (why?!), I might just dispense with that stat. – PeeJay 21:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "making Green the first African-American head coach" - in the lead African American did not have a hyphen.......?
    • Removed hyphen.
  • "Since Childress' first season in charge, the Vikings regular season record" => "After Childress' first season in charge, the Vikings' regular season record"
    • Reworded.
  • "twice in two consecutive years" - the word "two" is redundant here
    • Reworded.
  • Philadelphia Eagles is linked twice in the lead
    • Fixed.
  • "Last" column doesn't sort correctly
  • That's what I got! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:55, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey man im josh

Haven't done a deep dive just yet, but I have some comments:

  • List needs work to meet accessibility needs. See PresN's standard comment here for some advice.
    • Done.
  • Images need alt text
    • Done.
  • What verifies the number of division titles?
    • The Pro-Football-Reference link for each coach includes a season-by-season table with a column titled "Rank", which shows the team's position in their division under the coach each year.
  • Should the yrs column be changed to season instead? I think it makes more sense because of cases like Mike Zimmer, who was fired on January 10, 2022, and coached a game the day before, but is listed as having coached until 2021.
    • Done.
  • I think there should be a win % column for the playoffs as well, given that there's one for the regular season. (Personal note: It looks like other head coach lists are inconsistent, with 7 of the 22 promoted head coach lists including the playoff win % column, I think I may have to fix that some day.)
    • Done. I've also added a set of columns giving each coach's overall record (regular season plus playoffs).
  • For the "Elected into the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a coach and spent entire NFL head coaching career with the Vikings" coaches, you should a single symbol instead of two. I recommend removing the asterisk and just using the dagger
    • Since this is a combination of two other criteria, I think it's important to retain both symbols, especially since both symbols are already used for their own purposes.
  • This is very minor, but I think one of the two "Elected into the Pro Football Hall of Fame", background colours should be changed to make them a bit more different (not two shades of yellowish)
    • I'm not sure what this should be changed to. What do other articles use?

It's on the right track and I'm glad to see you nominated this PeeJay! Hey man im josh (talk) 14:44, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers. I've responded as best I can to your comments. Let me know how you'd like to proceed. – PeeJay 19:31, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey @PeeJay, I'm sorry for my delayed response, I wasn't aware you had responded to me, please ping me next time for a faster response. I think that the alt text for the images needs work. One example is the alt text for Jerry Burns, which reads "A white man in a suit and tie, holding a piece of paper", but the alt text would be better if it were Jerry Burns in a suit and tie, holding a piece of paper. You use similarly phrased alt text on all of the images in the table and I think the alt text should just use the person's name instead. The alt text is fine otherwise. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, I've fixed the alt text. I also raised some questions above regarding the colours and symbols used in the list key. Thanks for helping to clean up the references, by the way. – PeeJay 18:23, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@PeeJay: One of the yellows is fairly commonly used, but I think you may just need to pick a different colour, as I'm not sure there's a lot of situations where coaches were elected into the hall as a player. It's a minor knit pick, so I'm not stuck on it. I'll support. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:29, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Gonzo_fan2007
  • Why are Ties not sortable?
    • They are now. Not sure why the table I originally plagiarised didn't make them sortable.
  • Increase size of photos to 100px, they are barely readable.
    • Increased to 80px as a compromise.
  • Most of the info in the Legend is self-explanatory. Utilize {{Abbr}} for "GC", "W", "L" and "T" in the table. Use {{Abbrlink}} for Win%. "Seasons", "First" and "Last" are so self-explanatory that Legend clarification isn't necessary.
    • I'm not sure I agree with this. Using {{abbr}} and {{abbrlink}} reduce accessibility for people who are browsing on mobile devices or using screen readers.
      • "Seasons", "First" and "Last" are basic English words that are self-explanatory. These should be removed from the Legend or you should add every column header to the legend ("Name", "Image", ""Accomplishments" etc). If you really feel like something needs explained, then add a note like you do after "Term" (note that if any word needs a definition in the key, its "Term", which isn't a word I commonly associate with NFL head coaches). « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use {{Win-loss record}} for any records in the text or notes.
    • Done.
  • Ref 42 isn't archived.
    • Someone replaced it when they made an edit in the last couple of weeks, so I've restored the old ref.
  • Remove "elected to HoF as player" as not relevant to this list.
  • I also don't understand why "Spent entire NFL head coaching career with the Vikings" is important enough to have a color coding. I may be in the minority on that point.
    • I think it's interesting to note how many Vikings head coaches have only ever coached one team. I don't know how it compares to other teams, but this is an interesting point IMO.
  • I feel like the history section is a bit excessive. It's physical length is almost as long as the table today.
    • That's bound to happen as history progresses.
      • Then this level of detail should be moved to another article, maybe on the History of the Minnesota Vikings. The focus of any list article should be the list. This falls under FLCR 3(c) and to an extent 4. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'll see what I can do, but I don't think there's anything in there that warrants removal. Give me some time. – PeeJay 14:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          • Here's an example: With six minutes left in the fourth quarter and the Vikings in the lead at 27–20, they drove down the field to set up a 38-yard field goal for kicker Gary Anderson, who had not missed a single kick all season. A successful kick would have given the Vikings a two-score lead with just over two minutes left to play, but Anderson hooked his kick wide left, allowing the Falcons to take the ball back downfield for a game-tying touchdown. They followed this with a field goal in overtime, denying the Vikings a fifth Super Bowl appearance. - None of this has to do with "Vikings head coaches".
          • Another example: The Vikings again improved to 11–5 in 2015, beating the Packers in week 17 to win the NFC North for the first time since 2009 and snapping a streak of five consecutive titles by Green Bay; however, they went on to lose to the Seattle Seahawks in the wildcard round of the playoffs. After going 5–0 to start the 2016 season (which was their first season in their newly completed U.S. Bank Stadium) despite a slew of injuries, the team won just three games after their bye week and finished 8–8. - again, nothing to do with head coaches and more appropriate for History of the Minnesota Vikings or Minnesota Vikings seasons.
          • I will also note that the numerous times the history section goes into unnecessary detail about individual seasons and reads more as a history of the vikings than as a history of their head coaches. An example of the skewed mnature of some of this text is the sentence Nine more divisional titles followed in the next 11 seasons, including NFC Championships in 1973, 1974 and 1976, making Grant the first head coach to lead a team to four Super Bowls, although he won none of them., one sentence for 11 seasons (and the most successful at that), whereas we have a paragraph on Van Brocklin's first 3 and 3 whole paragraphs to cover the most recent 23 seasons. It's all too much and needs to be more focused on the topic at hand. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:30, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are the stats updated as of Week 15? If so, update them.
    • The person who updated the stats didn't update the "as of" line. Fixed.
  • The section title for the table should be "Head coaches"
    • Done.

That's it for now. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your input User:Gonzo fan2007. Let me know if you need anything else addressed. – PeeJay 14:19, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Specific responses above. Also, the "3" column should be sortable. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What's the "3" column? – PeeJay 14:28, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, slip of the keyboard. The "#" column. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I see. Yeah, I guess I can do that. – PeeJay 14:55, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gonzo fan2007, @PeeJay, I added sorting to the column to move things along. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Sorry I've been snowed under with extracurricular stuff recently and haven't been able to focus on this nomination. I'll try to give the "History" section a trim before the end of the week. – PeeJay 14:21, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PeeJay: Reminding you of this. --PresN 20:08, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant oppose with no movement on actionable comments in a month I must reluctantly oppose for now. Happy to reconsider if the history section is significantly trimmed. I'll state again, none of the other "head coaches" FLCs go into anything close to this level of detail. I noted specific examples above, but overall the history section comes across as a history of the franchise, with undo weight on specific parts. If a history section is included (which I don't necessarily agree with), it should focus more specifically on a general overview of the team's head coaches. Summary sentences that cover a head coach's tenure instead of play-by-play coverage of important games. Please ping me if edits are made and you would like me to reconsider PeeJay. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PeeJay: Second ping. --PresN 14:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to go ahead and close this; this nomination has been open for 3 months and no movement has been done on the oppose after weeks and two pings. Feel free to renominate once all issues are fixed. --PresN 21:18, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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