Wikipedia:Featured list removal candidates/List of Israeli cities/archive1

List of Israeli cities

Featured list removal candidates/List of Israeli cities/archive1

Notified: Uriyan, Israel

I am nominating this for featured list removal because it fails the requirement that the material be stable and that it be NPOV. We've had moves and move backs, all of which have been opposed, over Wikipedia making non-neutral statements and implications in the title and content of this article. Also note even the tag on the article is being edit-warred over (see here), again proving that this article fails the stability required portion. Nableezy 12:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Editor failed to gain consensus for his view on the talk page. The list has a clear inclusion criteria - cities recognized and administered as Israeli cities by Israeli authorities.Icewhiz (talk) 13:03, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Icewhiz, before letting this devolve into a topic that is not, I'd just ask that you review what you are opposing. There is currently an ongoing dispute about the neutrality of the title and scope of the article, which has been an issue on that article for years now with multiple moves and move backs. The list fails the stability requirement and the neutrality one given the dispute, regardless of where you are on the dispute. This is emphatically not a place to argue about the scope, just on whether or not this list satisfies the requirements of being a featured list. nableezy - 13:13, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have reviewed this. In fact - List of Israeli cities was suggested as a neutral name in the FL review in 2007 (when it was not promoted - it was "List of cities in Israel" - which was objected to editors back in 2007). The issue you are raising was subsequently reviewed in 2008 and passed, and then re-litigated on the talk page every few years. There's a limit to how many time the same argument can be hashed over again.Icewhiz (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I will also note that at least in non-list article FL/GA reviews - editors involved in recent disputes aren't supposed to initiate a review.Icewhiz (talk) 13:58, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose There has been one move in the last three years (the one before that was in March 2015). It's hardly non-stable and there was pretty clear consensus in the recent RM that the current title was the most appropriate option. The argument that it's not NPOV is extremely weak. Number 5 7 13:24, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus on article title? I hadn’t noticed this article before - it is POV to include settlements under the title “Israeli cities”. List of cities in Morocco doesn’t include Western Saharan cities, and List of cities and towns in Russia by population doesn’t include Crimean cities, and those two regions are annexed. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:30, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The difference is that those articles use the phrasing "in Morocco" and "in Russia"; this one does not use the phrase "in Israel". Although it's an Israeli settlement, I don't see how anyone could make a logical argument that Ariel is not also an Israeli city – the two are not mutually exclusive. Number 5 7 10:58, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sevastopol’s population is three-quarters Russian. In Western Sahara, the majority of the population are now Moroccan settlers,[1] and in the capital Laayoune the proportion is even higher. Those cities are therefore just as “Russian” and “Moroccan” as Ariel is Israeli.

For all these lists we must follow the international position, not the presentation of the occupying/annexing country. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Again: those articles are titled "in Morocco"/"in Russia". This one is not titled "in Israel". Number 5 7 18:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is only true due to an undiscussed move made over the objection of other editors by an involved editor. nableezy - 18:53, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This was actually the name this article had when it achieved FL status.Icewhiz (talk) 18:56, 26 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Noone in that FL discussion raised the obvious concern that presenting cities in Israel in a single list together with settlements in the West Bank but without other cities in the West Bank is non-neutral. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:40, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This was raised in the failed FLs that had "in Israel" and suggested "Israeli". The issue was clearly discussed in prior FL discussions. As for NPOV - it would seem the vast majority of sources stress that settlements (and cities that are settlements) are Israeli. The Palestinians themselves say so and demand their removal. International bodies who condemn settlements call them Israeli. The Israelis call them Israeli and regulate/govern them as they do other cities. Unlike, perhaps, Crimea where Ukraine wants the cities back - here the other side wants the land without a city.Icewhiz (talk) 20:41, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely - the promoting FL discussion failed to address the core issue behind its prior failure, twice, to achieve FL status.

As to your perspective on the dispute, your argument conflates and confuses the two (or more) meanings of the adjective “Israeli” in this context - i.e. the status of the people living there vs. the sovereignty / national status of the city. Which is exactly the issue here - the presentation in a single list under an ambiguous title is bound to mislead. The lead paragraph doesn’t even explain that the cities in the occupied West Bank are considered illegal and not part of Israel by the international community, which is the consensus explanation across the underlying articles themselves. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:22, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]