Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2006 December 20

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December 20

Image Names with Underscores

As a rank newbie, I uploaded an image to Wikipedia but cannot get my sandbox link to access it, even thought the image IS on Wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Turda_Gorge_RO_2003.jpg
So I tried uploading another image but omitted all underscore characters in the file name, and that works! And yet I see some images in Wiki pages that DO have underscore characters in the file name. My Sandbox is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wandering_piranga/Sandbox

So, why can't I link to my image with undescores?
Thanks for any help. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wandering piranga (talk • contribs) 00:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

Well you could link to the first one Like this by typing [[:Image:Turda Gorge RO 2003.jpg]] if you want to show the image rather than link take out the : to do so. — Seadog^Talk 00:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

You had a non-printing character between the g and pipe for some reason. Click edit in your sandbox, click just after "Image:Turda_Gorge_RO_2003.jpg", and press delete. --NE2 00:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Thanks, NE2. Rewriting the section by the pipe to delete the mysterious non-printing character, did the trick.
Wandering piranga 02:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Logging in

Whenever I try to log in normally, Wikipedia rejects my password. It will accept e-mailed temporary passwords and (sometimes) the passwords I create at the "new password" screen that comes after those passwords are entered; however, outside of those limits, it will not accept *any* password I try to create or put in. 70.114.212.242 00:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Addition from another user:

Am having similar problem this evening. Wikipedia would not accept my password. Had new one emailed. Wiki accepted it, but said I had to change it to complete login process. After putting in new password twice, I got "incorrect password" notice. Password I had just created did not work in repeated tries. I again tried pw that had been emailed to me, it again was accepted and again gave me instructions to enter new pw. I created yet another pw, and it again did not work. Emailed pw no longer works, and another pw will not be mailed for 24 hours. This is all a bit discouraging. Username = Donquixote99

I (70.114.212.242) managed to fix this problem a little bit later; I use Firefox with the NoScript extension, and I was not allowing Wikipedia to use Javascript. Permitting this allowed me to log on normally. IanA 01:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Fact tags question ANSWERED

Should {{fact}} tags be subst'd? Anchoress 01:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

No. See WP:SUBST. Patstuart^talk|edits 03:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

As it wasn't on that page, I've now added it. -Patstuart^talk|edits 03:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

OK thanks for the reply. Anchoress 04:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Guide to templates?

At least, I think they're templates. You know, like {{Accuracy}} and such. Is there any page that lists or shows all of them?

I don't know where all the templates in Wikipedia are, but all the cleanup templates are HERE. Anchoress 01:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Here you are: Wikipedia:Template messages — Lost^(talk) 02:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

IRC

Hey I have a question and sorry if this sounds basic. I have always seen those irc links around the wikispace but when I go to click on one I get a message that says Firefox can't open the page since it isn't... and so on and so forth. Is there anything I can do? Thanks. — Seadog^Talk 02:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is an example of the one of the links I can't open. IRC channel. — Seadog^Talk

To be able to open an IRC link, you'll have to install a IRC client. Since you use Firefox, Chatzilla might be of good use for you, as it comes as a plugin for the browser. Bjelleklang - talk 02:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

To use IRC, you need IRC client software. Those links only work if that client program is linked with your web browser; most people just connect directly using the IRC client. —Centrx→talk • 02:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

%#@$&

Currently, I am trying to revert some vandalism on the page 2050's, but every single time I try to save the edit it gives me a "Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data. Please try again. If it still doesn't work, try logging out and logging back in." and it's getting irritating. I've tried logging in/out, refreshing, closing in and out of browser, using different browsers reseting the cache, no cigar! Can you help me here? --RedPooka 03:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I see you got it reverted, so it must've been a temporary glitch. -- Kesh 03:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes the database receives your change but you don't manage to get the page update through. It's a good idea if your edit "fails" to try to check the page history before you attempt the change again. BigNate37_(T) 13:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It worked?! Yay! --RedPooka 15:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Goof sections.

Seriously, are Goof sections allowed on articles about movies? I added a Goofs section to the article about the movie Titanic and someone removed it (and administrator, actually, claiming it was unencylcopedic). I was none too happy about this because I have added goofs sections to many other articles, and there have been no problems whatsoever. So now I'm downright confused... SilentWind 03:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Looking at your contributions, I don't see anywhere you edited an article about Titanic. The closest is your edits to Talk:RMS_Titanic. Perhaps you meant a different article?

That said, a "Goofs" section alone may not be encyclopedic if it's just a list of gaffes in the movie. Write that information into the article itself, and it becomes more acceptable. You've got a similar problem in Mulan: it's just a series of items listed. It needs to be rewritten in non-list form to better suit Wikipedias Manual of Style. -- Kesh 03:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It also needs reliable sources for the "goofs" claims. Not Original Research, and not imdb, which is not always reliable. User:Zoe|(talk) 20:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Question about proposed deletion process

I have just proposed The Wanderers for deletion, and was about to notify the creators, when I realized that in fact they had coopted a redirect page. I can't quite figure out the right policy to handle this -- is this something I should just revert? I don't want to treat this as vandalism, so it seems politer to "go through channels" if I can figure out what channels to go through. Prod doesn't seem right as it should not be deleted, it should become a redirect again. What's the standard way to deal with this? Mike Christie (talk) 05:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I would just revert. It may be warranted to have it deleted and the replace the redirect, so that it is less likely to be re-posted. —Centrx→talk • 05:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, what is "coopting a redirect page"? -Amarkov ^blah_edits 05:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I just meant that it was originally a redirect page, not a page that they created for themselves. Hence a deletion destroys a page that is useful; they took over that page -- "co-opted" it, in other words. Mike Christie (talk) 05:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) I think it's kind of like cyber-squatting. 'The Wanderers' is a notable musical group, but the redirect page has been changed to an article about a non-notable subject, thereby halting the redirect. Hey, a new term: Wiki-squatting. Anchoress 05:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, it's a notable music group, but until we can track the article on the band down (or write it), it's probably a good idea to redirect it to where it does now. Or did they remove the band article in the process? - Mgm|^(talk) 09:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

how do i create a page in wikipedia

hello

i want to create a page in wikipedia. can i know how it will be done.

This has been asked a few times in the last two days. Please see the 10th and 13th questions above this one. Dismas|^(talk) 05:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

You can still answer his question, though :). Just type the name of the page in the search box, hit go, and then click the red link that appears. Write the article, and then save the page, and bada bing bada boom, it's done. DoomsDay349 06:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I left a welcome message on his talk page with a brief explanation. JMcC 18:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate articles in category

I'm unable to remove several supermarket articles from "Category:Television stations in Houston" which obviously do not belong in the category. I'm unable to find the category on the page to remove it. Can someone check this please? Thanks Postoak 07:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

They all seem to be Delihaze stores, so I think probably one of the graphics, or one of the infoboxes is putting them into the category. BTW for other people helping you with this, links would be nice. Anchoress 08:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, here is one of the articles Food Lion. Postoak 08:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's {{List of Delhaize America Companies}}, for some reason. Anchoress 08:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. The Delihaze List template had two TV stations categories in it; probably because the template was copied from a similar one with a different purpose? Anyways, deleted them. This was fun! Anchoress 08:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops. Except now the template looks a teensy bit different. Maybe someone else can fix that lol. Anchoress 08:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! Postoak 08:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, Anchoress, it looks exactly the same to me (mozilla, w2k) — coelacan talk — 14:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh. When I looked at it post-surgery (the surgical removal of the unnecessary categories), the blue bar had moved slightly, and when I refreshed it, the blue bar disappeared altogether. Not a big change, to be sure. Anchoress 00:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Collating sequences of double-barrelled & split surnames in categories etc...

If you have a surname such as "de Smith" (mine!), "von Something" etc., the standard collating sequences used in the category indices places the surname after "Z" as I presume straight ASCII/UNICODE/whatever is being used here.

What I believe should happen is that for surnames, the first UPPER CASE letter should be used as the start of the name, e.g. "de Smith" should be at the start of the "S" index (as it is in telephone books etc.).

Thoughts?

Nickds1 09:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• It should, but since Wikipedia automatically changes the first letter to uppercase it can't be automated. Try sorting the articles by adding a sorting key in the category tag, like for example this: [[Category:Singers|Trapp, Kurt von]]. That will make it sort to T instead of V. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
• I have experienced different behaviour. Consider my usage of [[Category:Fellows of the British Academy|de Smith, Stanley]]. If you look at that category, you'll see that the "de" is not capitalised to "De" for collating, and that "de Smith" appears after "Z", not in the "D"s or "S"s. Thanks Nickds1 10:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
• The capitalization behavior I mentioned is only on article titles, I didn't know about how it behaved in cateogries, but it makes sense for the software to categorize on 'd' if you put 'de' at the start of the sortkey. If you start with 'Smith' instead it sorts under 'S'. I've altered the sorting of your latest article to illustrate what I mean. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
• Top man. Thanks Nickds1 15:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Template for a Customized (Alphabetized) table

Hi, I'm trying to find a way to create a template. The template would receive a list, say: Dan Abigail Chris Gloria etc... It will then take that list and build a 3 or 4 column (and as many rows as needed) table around it while alphabetizing the list. I've been digging around the Templates pages but haven't found anything already created or found anything to really help me create my own. If anyone has any suggestions or hints, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Savitar8 10:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible; you can't alphabetize strings using m:ParserFunctions, or get sortable tables to work correctly with the multiple columns you're asking for, and even if it were possible it would be hideously complicated and probably hit the maximum limit for template complexity. --ais523 11:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

deleting images, changing copyright options

Hi,

I just submitted an image of a painting as an example for a paint medium, however some things went wrong: 1. I chose the wrong option for copyright (I want the option "all rights reseved" instead I ended up with a GNU) 2. I wasn't able to link the image with the article 3. I wanted to delete the image and start again, but I couldn't see "delete" option anywhere

Please help.

N.B. I own the image.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by December Blues (talk • contribs)

Do you mean that you painted the image yourself, or that someone else painted it, and you own either the copy or the original? This is quite important, and "all rights reserved" will just get your image deleted. Notinasnaid 10:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I painted the image. I own the original. I just wanted to add it to the article as an example of a painting painted in the featured medium. It ended up in New Images gallery with a wrong option of copy right. I couldn't embed it in the article.

I see that some images have (c) copyrights reserved, red c sign which I couldn't see in the copyrights option box.. That's why I ended up with GNU in the first place..

You say: "all rights reserved" will just get your image deleted. " ; then which option should I chose?

If I can't get these things right I would like to delete the image of my painting.

Looking forwrd to yr reply.

For self-created images, Wikipedia only permits free use licences; see Wikipedia:Image copyright tags. Images with fair-use copyrights (the 'all rights reserved' images) are generally only used in cases when a free-use image would be impossible to create (such as a photograph of a historical figure who is now dead); see Wikipedia:Fair use criteria. You should think about what licence you want to offer your image to Wikipedia under; all the accepted licences allow redistribution, creation of derivative works, and commercial use, so if you don't want to licence your image under these terms place {{db-author}} on the image page to say that you uploaded it by mistake and request a deletion. --ais523 11:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

How does one find out the date their account was made?

Apologies if this is the wrong place to find out. I'd like to know how, if it's possible, to figure out the date and approximate time I registered to Wikipedia. The only way I know is to look in my emailbox for a confirmation email, but no luck there. I appreciate any help that can be given. Äþelwulf See my contributions. 11:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a user creation log, but your account is sufficiently old that it's fallen off the end and the creation date/time have been lost. Your first non-deleted edit was on 5 March 2006 at 02:12 UTC; many users will edit with an account immediately after creating it (you can find your first edit by clicking 'oldest' on your contributions screen); edits to pages that were since deleted won't show up, so that's also woth thinking about. By the way, the Help Desk is the right place to ask this sort of question. --ais523 11:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey thanks.

I wonder, about how old is too old to be found on the user creation log? Äþelwulf See my contributions. 12:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Going back one and a half million entries in the log only goes to August 2006. The servers won't give me the two-millionth entry in a reasonable length of time (update: read timeout as I'm typing this); somehow I suspect it would be impractical to maintain a list stretching over a more than a few months, although I don't know for certain (although someone on WP:VPT might do). It's always possible that entries never fall off but your username was created before the list was implemented. --ais523 12:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Another way to get this information (also earliest edit, though, not account creation) - and also a load of other interesting information about your account usage - is to use an edit counter like this one: http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate where you'll see your first edit date, and a breakdown of all of your edits, neatly categorized, plus a list of your top 10 in various categories. FYI, anyone can insert any user ID into the counter and see this information: it's not private. Hope this helps. Tvoz 08:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Copyright for a composite map

I want to create, then upload, a map based on two maps, neither of which I own the copyright for.

From the internet, an old map shows the route of a disused canal.

From the internet, a current map shows the routes of all the roads that are near or on top of the route of the disused canal.

I'm planning to scale, rotate then superimpose the old map on top of the current map. Then, I'm planning to sketch/trace the routes of the current roads with the routes of the disused canal.

This sketch, which will contain NO images or text from either internet-sourced maps, will be the file to be uploaded into Wikipedia. I plan to release copyright for this sketch and make it freely available.

Am I allowed to do this? --ML5 12:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Both of the maps have to be either licensed under the GFDL or in the public domain. If one of them has some other copyright status, no. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 16:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Even though no parts of the original maps will be evident? --ML5 17:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It should be ok -IF- the new map is significantly different. Meaning, the design/style is not evident. The layout of roads and other features isn't copyrightable, only the style & design is. How old are the maps anyway, right? If it's produced in the 1920s or earlier it would be under public domain. ---J.S ^(T/C) 17:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm using Ordnance Survey maps from 1864 and modern ones. I would only be copying/tracing the layout of the roads, etc, not using their 'lines'. Also, I wouldn't be using all the roads, etc, from the modern ones, only the major ones. Ultimately, if I hadn't said how I came to draw my version, it would not be evident where I got my source material from, i.e. my version won't look like an Ordnance Survey map, old or modern. --ML5 18:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that changing the form is a get out; to avoid copyright issues you have to start with public domain maps or survey things yourself. I have read of cases where map makers include small errors to catch out people who copy their map data (even into radically different layouts), and this has led to settlements. Possibly the copyright is on the creative work of the made up stuff, who knows. Anyway, the settlement was for 20 million pounds. See [1]. Notinasnaid 18:22, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If you know the area enough to avoid those traps, that shouldn't be a problem. You might also be safer using GIS data or aerial photos, especially if you lossily trace the paths, since the exact positions of features on the earth cannot be copyrighted. --NE2 18:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ordnance Survey maps from 1800s are public domain, so no worries their. It sounds like what your planning will be ok. ---J.S ^(T/C) 00:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all your input. The area is well known to me and I don't see any mistakes. The current maps also tie up with aerial photographs. I suppose my question was answered when J.S said the layout of roads isn't copyrightable. Thanks again. --ML5 10:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ucc form for filing a lien on property

I wish to ask the following question:

 I'm a ucc filer I want to lien property (home)is there a ucc form I can use or attain?

Since I'm already filed as the secured party and have a contract betwween the debor name removed and secured Creditor name removed what form if any may i use to file a secured intrest in the property?

Please let me know as soon as possible

Thank you

Hi! The best place to ask questions like this is at our Reference Desk (I've linked to the Miscellaneous part of the Desk). There should be lots of people who can put you in touch with the right resources there. (The Help Desk – this page – is more of a place to ask for help in using Wikipedia.)

When you post your question there, be sure to tell them where you're seeking the lien. Readers of Wikipedia (and the volunteers at the Reference Desk) come from all over the world; the form you file and process you follow will depend on your jurisdiction. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is relay not the right place to get legal advice. You need to consult an attorney or find a website that specialises in that kind of thing. ---J.S ^(T/C) 17:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I figured that someone could tell him where to find the form, though—that's not a question of law. If he tells us where he is, someone can probably give him contact info or a website for the right government office. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:07, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Translations in the English Wikipedia

Would a varied personal translation (into English), or a modification of an existing translation on Wikipedia, of a song or a poem in the English Wikipedia (in my case "Saare Jahan Se Achcha" by Iqbal), because it is personal, amount to unverifiable content as it is previously unpublished, and is a matter of interpretation?

Sounds like original research. Probably belongs in Wikibooks? Xiner (talk, email) 14:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you be a little more specific? Just translating something isn't encyclopaedic (i.e. a posting of an english language poem is just going to get taken down as well) - but as far as I can see, using non-english language references is acceptable - I can't find any citation/sources policy that requires english-type sources. WilyD 15:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Saare Jahan Se Achcha currently has an English translation listed on its Wikipedia page. Are you saying you disagree with how it was translated -- that you think some words or phrases could be interpreted differently? If so, then I suggest discussing it on the article's talk page, and see if others agree. If no one agrees, then you might be mistaken. If others agree, then go ahead and change it. If there's a lot of disagreement, then maybe both alternatives should be noted on the article page. —P^urpleRA^IN 15:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If the song/poem is the subject of the article and there is any room for interpretation regarding its translation, then the only point of view that should be expressed is that of reliable sources, and said point(s) of view should be carefully given due weight (i.e. not construed to be the absolute truth). That's my take on it, since in literature the interpretation is as much a matter of literary commentary as it is translation. BigNate37_(T) 18:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the name of the fund raiser software you guys are using?

I own a none profit and am interested in that script or a similar one. I know the question is oput of place, but I am anxious for an answer. Thank you.

Do you mean the banner at the top of the page? I think it's custom made. I'm sure someone else will be able to point you to the source-code. ---J.S ^(T/C) 16:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. That's what i am referring to.

You can see this page. You may ask there for more details — Lost^(talk) 18:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I see that the page is using drupal (drupal.org) theme B7 as a template....now i just want to know what in the world is writing to a png file to create the green meter.

Refs gone funny...

In this article, Breakfast Television (Citytv Toronto), the refs have gone funny. Anyone able to fix it. -- Zanimum 18:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. There was an unclosed reference tag, so the entire section was treated as a reference. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 18:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Uhh, I'm not sure what your edit did, but I think I had already fixed it in my edit just before yours here. It was a missing > from a <ref>. BigNate37_(T) 18:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I had reverted it to a previous version, which apparently still had the problem, although it didn't look like that. So I just undid my reversion. -Amarkov ^blah_edits 18:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, I missed that you had an edit in there before me. So the sum total of our three edits[2] was to fix the > and I'm no longer confused. Looks good. BigNate37_(T) 18:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you all! -- Zanimum 21:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

where is the create a page

i can't fine it can someone tell me where it is —Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterfly 14 (talk • contribs) 19:45, 20 December 2006

Yep say if the you want to create a page on asdfasdfadsf ^{don't though} Than just click the link and you should see the link that says "create a page on this topic" or title. — Seadog^Talk 19:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Some useful links: Help:Starting a new page, Wikipedia:Your first article and Wikipedia:How to write a great article. Jacek Kendysz 19:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

table of contents

How do I revise the Table of contents?216.31.110.225 20:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The table of contents is created automatically from the section titles in the article. Notinasnaid 20:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

20 of december 1989

Hi,

I am a frequent user of Wikipedia and I was quite dismayed by the fact that Wikipedia did not acknowledge the anniversary of Operation "Just Cause" in Panama where thousands of panamanians died and the United States used its brutal force to once again politically rearrange a country in its favor. Regardless of whoever agrees ir disagrees with it, it should be noted, since its quite more significant than the transfer of power of Portugal to China(Macau) or the secession of North Carolina. Thanks so much.

Thank you for your suggestion! Since all the articles in Wikipedia were created by volunteers, we only have those articles which people have taken the time to write. When you feel an article needs to be created or improved, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Create an account and see creating a page if the article you wish to edit does not yet exist. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. BigNate37_(T) 20:58, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It appears that we already have this article. It's right over here: Operation Just Cause. Were you including quotes around "Just Cause" in your search? That might have been the problem. — coelacan talk — 21:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think he is referring to the fact that it wans't on the main page. There are a lot of events that happened on December 20th so not everything can be listed on the "On this day..." part of the main page. I believe there is a process to picking these, let me try to find a link... there you go. It suggests being bold in adding, so get into those discussions if there is something you think should be added. Chris M. 06:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)