Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 September 14

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September 14

Mango

This June I found a great tasting MANGO. I am not sure if I indentified it correctly (Brahm Kai Meu or Tom Py Kam or it could be Nam Doc Mai) Planted the seeds and they came up nicely and it is about 10-12" in a 6" pot. Do I have to grafted in order to get good fruit? If yes at what height or when? When it is going to produce next year, who do I contact for positive indentification? I live in Hobe Sound Florida Thanks for any help you can give me Alex —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.77.31.24 (talk) 00:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You might find what you are looking for in the article about Mango. If you cannot find the answer there, you can try asking your question at Wikipedia's Reference Desk. They specialize in knowledge questions and will try to answer just about any question in the universe (except about how to use Wikipedia, which is what this help desk is for). I hope this helps. TNXMan 00:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

His comments to the president.

(removed, Wikipedia is not a soapbox) Xenon54 / talk / 01:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Timor-Leste Red Cross Page

Hi,

The page I wrote for Cruz Vermelha de Timor-Leste has been tagged for imminent deletion, as the information and most of the words were taken from the Society's home page. But I wrote that too, and have given myself permission to reuse it on wikipedia. The reason I did so was to attract more attention and awareness of our humanitarian cause. I'm new to wikipedia, so let me know how to meet the guidelines and I shall conform. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henrycornwell (talk • contribs) 00:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You need evidence of permission - simply permission itself is not sufficient. Also, please see our guidelines on notability of organizations, or the problem will go from a G12 violation to an A7 violation. Intelligentsium 01:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying I need to email and respond to myself asking for and confirming permission? A bit odd. Once I've done that, where do I leave the proof? With regards to the notability of the red cross, what sort of evidence do you need? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henrycornwell (talk • contribs) 01:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

A copy and paste from a website will be unduely self serving. Creating an article for promotional reasons raises concerns. Please see Wikipedia:Your first article and WP:SOAPBOX. Wikipedia:Articles for creation may be useful and you need to read Wikipedia:Conflict of interest.Cptnono (talk) 01:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll think about the ethics of self promotion once I'm through the copyright issue. Until then, could somebody please tell me exactly how to establish that there is no copyright issue? Henrycornwell (talk) 02:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

No. It shouldn't be pulled from the site at all. It is a concern of self promotion. Read all of the links provided to you and make sure you are finding reliable sources from independent third partiesx (news coverage, books, ect) that assert that the group is notable enough for inclusion. Then a fresh article needs to be created that is not a mirror of the website.Cptnono (talk) 03:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you read WP:IOWN? As it says there, merely saying permission is granted is not enough. You either need to make a note permitting reuse under the Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License (CC-BY-SA) and the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) (unversioned, with no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts) on the website, or send an email from an address associated with the original publication (usually this means from the domain the website is at, in this case redcross.tl) to the address given at IOWN. If you can do either of those, then the text could be reused on Wikipedia.

However, despite your noble intentions, Wikipedia is not a place to attract more attention and awareness of our humanitarian cause - this is an encyclopedia, not a directory of good causes. My advice is the same as Cptnono's - find reliable third-party, independent, reliable sources of information about Cruz Vermelha de Timor-Leste and cite them - if you're not sure how to cite references, see WP:CITE. -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 10:56, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Clerk at CHU

Is there any special procedure I have to go through to become a clerk at CHU and CHUU, or do I just start commenting? Intelligentsium 01:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

As noted at Wikipedia:Changing_username/Assistance, as long as you are familiar with the Changing username guidelines there should not be a problem with helping out. If a bureaucrat were to feel that your contributions were not helpful, then they would politely request that you refrain from clerking the CHU process, but this has yet to occur. ∙ AJCham^talk 01:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Help with messy mass deletion

I'm currently involved in an AfD debate regarding the fate of 60 or so very similar articles. There was already a debate on one of the articles for which the result was Delete, but though the text of the debate was indicating that all of the articles were included, only the one with the title of the AfD was actually deleted. Now we're on the second try but for reasons that would take too long to explain, only 10 of the remaining 59 articles were included in the new AfD. Can someone take a look at this and tell me what has to be done to roll all the articles into a single AfD? I really don't want to have to go through the debate a third time. The AfD in question is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/30th century (Hebrew).--RDBury (talk) 02:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

copyrights, trademark?

map of the Philippines printed on shirts who owns the rights? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.55.60.47 (talk) 03:12, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried the Miscellaneous section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia. For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: click here. I hope this helps. TNXMan 03:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework. Welcome to the Wikipedia Help desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but it is our policy here to not do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn how to solve such problems.
Please attempt to solve the problem yourself first. You can search Wikipedia or search the Web.
If you need help with a specific part of your homework, the Reference desk can help you grasp the concept. Do not ask knowledge questions here, just those about using Wikipedia. Ojay123 ^{(Talk•E-Mail•Contribs•Sandbox)} 01:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Bruce Boxleitner

All kinds of celebrities listed in Wikipedia have complete biographies, so why is there no biography of Bruce Boxleitner? You tell us where and when he is born, where he went to high school and the school he went to in Chicago after that, but absolutely nothing else is mentioned about his parents, whether he has any brothers or sisters, whether he's Irish, Native American, or anything like that. You're article immediately goes into his professional life, and talk about his later personal life on wives, and kids. And that's it. After he played a half Native American Sherriff on the movie, Bone Eater, that aired on SyFy tonight. I came to you to find what his real life heritage was, but you had nothing. However, when I thought of Chuck Norris and knew that his character, Walker Texas Ranger, was half Native American, I checked him out on your site, and you had it all there. Why is there such a difference? Surely, there has to be someone on your staff to fill in the missing information for the article on Mr. Boxleitner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobbyr54 (talk • contribs) 03:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

If you have access to reliable sources which could be used to improve the article in question, please feel free to do so. Every single editor here is exactly like you are; people who came across articles that needed improvement and took it upon themseleves to do the research, cite their sources and improve the articles themselves. --Jayron32 03:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

See Bruce Boxleitner. Needs some sources though. – ukexpat (talk) 16:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

UBX formatting

I have subst'd this UBX on to my user page and would like to have the added "Link" on the second line show in the lower right corner (OK so I'm Ar). Can this be done? hydnjo (talk) 04:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, you just want to move it from left to the right? Enclose the link within these tags:

<div style="float:right;">[[Link]]</div>

Is that what you wanted? ≈ Chamal ^talk ¤ 04:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Perfect - exactly what I was looking for - Thank YOU! -hydnjo (talk) 04:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Damn! This here Help desk is mighty helpful - every time :) hydnjo (talk) 09:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Clarification on the WP:NOT#DIRECTORY policy

Do street addresses fall under this criteria? ArcAngel (talk) 06:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

In what context? Wikipedia contains some street addresses of notable locations. For example, {{Infobox Skyscraper}} has a street-address1 field. But geographic coordinates are often better than street addresses, since many mapping programs can read them from Wikipedia's articles; see {{Coord}}. --Teratornis (talk) 08:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

As I read the policy, listing the street address, i.e. the physical location, of the Trump Tower, for example, would be perfectly acceptable. Discussing its connection to Donald Trump would be acceptable. Listing all the building's occupants and their phone, fax, and e-mail numbers would not. That would be a directory. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, so based on your interpretation, listing the street address for any building that has an article is OK then? I was under the impression that it might be viewed as an invasion of privacy for some. ArcAngel (talk) 08:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There would be no "invasion of privacy" issue for a notable building in and of itself. Who lives or works there could be "invasion of privacy", although if Trump lives in the Trump Tower that wouldn't likely qualify. Public figures whose residence is verifiable might not be an issue. "Exposing" such information, as noted below, would be a problem. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 09:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

There are of course concerns with biographies of living people. That is why it states "Presumption in favor of privacy: Wikipedia articles that present material about living people can affect their subjects' lives. Wikipedia editors who deal with these articles have a responsibility to consider the legal and ethical implications of their actions when doing so... Biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy." WP:BLP. Where a commercial building is should be fine but the address of a porn star would be a problem.Cptnono (talk) 08:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Poor visibility of new message notification

Resolved

Another CSS question: How would I go about improving the visibility of "You have new messages" in the modern skin? Preferably I would have it look just like in the monobook skin. Thanks, decltype (talk) 06:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Got it:

.usermessage {
	background-color: #ffce7b;
	border: 1px solid #ffa500;
	color: black;
	font-weight: bold;
	margin: 2em 0 1em;
	padding: .5em 1em;
	vertical-align: middle;
}

decltype (talk) 09:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

secondary sources

I want to add a list of secondaary sources/criticism to my article. They are relevant articles from journals. Should I just write the article's title or the full bibliography (that is, the name of the journal, year and pace of publishing, volume, issue)? Thanks!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.230.108.48 (talk) 07:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

See WP:FOOT, WP:CITE, WP:CITET, and WP:LAYOUT. You can use the {{Cite journal}} template. The more bibliographic information you give, the easier it will be for other users to check your sources. In theory, the Digital object identifier alone should be enough, but it's nice to include the other items readable by humans. --Teratornis (talk) 08:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

How do you get the references to appear in columns on Google Chrome?

On articles such as Kakha Kaladze and Baichung Bhutia, the references appear in 2 columns when using Firefox but when using Chrome there is only one. How do I fix this? Spiderone 07:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

If you don't have a suitable answer here soon, you may wish to try the technical village pump, WP:VPT. Maedin\^talk 08:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I checked WP:BROWSER and to my surprise it doesn't seem to even mention Google Chrome. See WP:BUG for instructions on searching for bugs that other users have reported. --Teratornis (talk) 08:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I found my answer here Template_talk:Reflist/Archive_11#two_columns Spiderone 10:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

And it is plainly documented on the {{reflist}} page under browser support. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 11:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

what is communication

what is communication ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.224.235.88 (talk) 09:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Near the top on the left side of every Wikipedia page is a search box. Type communication in there and click go. That will take you to our article on the subject. —teb728 t c 09:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.
Welcome to the Wikipedia Help desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but it is our policy here not to do others' homework, but merely to aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn how to solve such problems.
Please attempt to solve the problem yourself first. You can search Wikipedia or search the Web.
If you need help with a specific part of your homework, the Reference desk can help you grasp the concept. Do not ask knowledge questions here, just those about using Wikipedia. -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 14:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

high tension wires

why cuurent in high tension wires is in multiple of 11? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.211.58 (talk) 09:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC) :

Have you tried the Science section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia. For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: click here. I hope this helps. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Try our article on the overhead power line. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 11:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

How to see my edits that have been UNDOne?

Is there a way for me to see the mainspace edits of mine that have been UNDOne by another user? I ask because I want to know about any errors in the format fixing edits I make that may not have been reported to me. Thanks Rjwilmsi 10:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. You'll have to go to the articles you've edited and check manually. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:46, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

That is no longer possible Rjwilmsi. cheers. --SF007 (talk) 11:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Year template

Is there a template that all year articles are based off? e.g. 1981, 2009. I ask because I'm trying to find out where I can discuss what should go into every year article. For example, if the Nobel Prize winners are mentioned in each year, how about the Turing Award, the Man Booker Prize, Palme d'Or etc.? Alexd (talk) 10:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You could try asking at WikiProject Years. I'm not sure how active that project is, though. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 10:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Other people editing my pages posted

Hi Folks, 1. it is possible to lock you pages to stop other people from modifying the content I post. (It seems some one has decided to edit my conent in a negative way after I have posted it.) 2. How do I find out who is doing this? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mickly01 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The above user only has one registered "contribution", that being the above, and doesn't give any examples. He could try WP:RFPP to request page protection, if an article is being frequently vandalized. If it's a content dispute, that needs to be worked out on the articles' talk pages. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

1. Nope, only admins can do that. If vandalism happens happens just post where it is happening here and someone will gladely help! 2. If it is an article, there is a tab at top that says "history" click that and it will tell you. Accdude92 (talk) (sign) 13:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

And remember, always, "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here". --Orange Mike | Talk 14:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This appears to be a case of article ownership. Wikipedia is a wiki; Anybody can edit. Since this help desk post is your only contribution, I can't exactly get a feel for the exact circumstances.--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail Review} 14:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

If said articles have suffered persistent vandalism or are relatively sensitive (like a BLP), than you should contact an admin willing to do that at WP:AIV or WP: RFPP. Otherwise, don't bother. If you want an article you can OWN than post it at some alternate outlet like Everything2, because once you publish the article, it becomes an encyclopedia article that will be edited, changed, revised and possibly vandalised, not an essay of yours. Ojay123 ^{(Talk•E-Mail•Contribs•Sandbox)} 01:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Clipping a video

At Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Crown Fountain/archive4, I have been asked to clip a video down in length from 50 seconds to about 10 seconds. It is the main image at Crown Fountain. My co-author, who initially posted the video, is unresponsive. I do not know how to clip video files in this format. Can anyone offer assistance or direction.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 13:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You might find something in Commons:Help:Converting video. --Teratornis (talk) 19:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You can link to the file like this: File:Crown fountain spouting.ogg. --Teratornis (talk) 19:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems that my co-author has come to life and will be chopping this down tonight.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Humorous

Why are there humorous pages starting with "Wikipedia:"?--Mikespedia (talk) 14:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Because Wikipedians have a sense of humour too! See Category:Wikipedia humor - as it says at the top of that page: "These pages contain material which is kept because the contents are considered humorous. They are not intended, nor should they be used, for any research or serious use." (also: "This page in a nutshell: Inside a nutshell it's too dark to read this page!") -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 14:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, pages starting with wikipedia are not encyclopedia articles, but more the admin side of the encyclopedia - and sometimes people put things there that make other editors smile - a valid function in and of itself! The server space used by those articles is minor, so as it helps spread Wikilove and besides, the Department of Fun would be most put out if they weren't there! -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 14:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm with you Mike. I'm not opposed to humor (though some of my friends beg to differ.) I have no problem with humor articles but after noting that virtually all articles of the form WP:x are quasi-official, I was surprised to run across one that was clearly not, and I assumed it had been vandalized. I'd prefer to reserve WP:x for official business, and maybe create FUN:x for humorous entries. Maybe we could even shorten it to FU:x, and let someone take the bait.--SPhilbrickT 15:41, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Mikespedia and Sphilbrick - please note that all humorous articles are clearly marked as such at the top of their page, so no one can be under the impression that it is a serious page. I'm not sure if there would be enough in this category to justify creating a new name space (FUN:) - or how easy this would be to implement anyway. The purpose of humorous articles is to make editors feel happier - which makes for better editors, or so the theory goes! -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 17:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It should also be noted that most of the humorous essays in the Wikipedia namespace have a nugget of truth to them; sometimes it is enlightening to make a valid point through humor. --Jayron32 19:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

immediate image license help would be nice

Hi, image creators are getting links to Wikipedia:Image_license_migration which makes no sense to me (I am a creator) nor the three other creators who commented on my request for more info on the discussion page there. Could someone edit that page to add a link to a sort of "Wikipedia and licenses for created content" article or just write a paragraph or two. This is time sensitive because a bot is currently linking every creator's images back to this article which might have been understandable to its authors, but is not comprehensible to me. PDBailey (talk) 14:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Why was my disambiguation link to 101 (disambiguation) removed from 101?

I added a link to the disambiguation page at the top of 101 but it was removed with the summary "that was a subset of the existing hatnote". I don't understand what that means, many other year articles have links to disambiguation pages, ie 1, 2, 3, 33, 50, 999, 2001, etc. 101 already has a link to 101 (number), but that is not a disambiguation page. Why was my edit disallowed but all these others remain? I was only basing it on the convention that exists in the articles 1 - 10. Nelson58 (talk) 14:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The other editor was right to remove your two links - but inadvertently used the wrong link themselves! A specific link to the 101 (number) isn't required as well as to 101 (disambiguation), as the number is on the latter page anyway. I have corrected it so that it shows "This article is about the year. For other uses, see 101 (disambiguation)." - the number 101 is linked to on the disamb page. -- PhantomSteve (Contact Me, My Contribs) 14:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:RD/Language

Resolved

Is there something wrong at the entitled desk? All the others load properly, but for Language, I just get the TOC, and a great list of "(edit) in blue, justified right. Anyone else have the same problem? // BL \\ (talk) 17:40, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Have you tried purging it? decltype (talk) 17:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Now every page is doing it. I think the problem is at my end. Sorry to have disturbed the afternoon calm here. I will try a purge or two. Thanks // BL \\ (talk) 17:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Restart fixed it. Sorry // BL \\ (talk) 18:47, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Keeping login name

Resolved

 –  – ukexpat (talk) 15:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I need to know why the email I give you guys appears to not being valid, I can't log in and I have the feeling that someone hacked my page, so, my question is "is there a way that I can keep my login name, so I don't have to create a new one". My login name is auslander71, my e-mail is <blanked>, I have requested new logins but I haven't received any, please let me know what can I do without having to change my login.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.114.149 (talk) 17:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You need to login using your username, not your e-mail. I doubt somebody has hacked you, as he would probably have ended up getting your user blocked (and your block log is still clean).--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail Review} 18:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have been entering my login name (auslander71) but my password wasn't working so I requested a new one, the problem is I never got it, I try requesting a new password to be send to my e-mail but I got a message box that says that my e-mail isn't valid, how can I get a new password? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.114.149 (talk) 19:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, you can't. If you didn't put in a valid e-mail address when you signed up or during the time when you had access to your account, there is no other way to retrieve your password. Xenon54 / talk / 19:49, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

You only made 10 edits as Auslander71, 5 to your userpage and 5 on talk pages, so you will not lose much by merely abandoning that account and registering a new one. ∙ AJCham^talk 20:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

So be it...

Thank you for all the help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.114.149 (talk) 02:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Bhutan

Resolved

 –  – ukexpat (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

After a quick glance at the Bhutan article, I see that it uses the British spellings of words. Is using British spellings a Wikipedia policy? Just a minor curiosity. Digital Satyr (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The policy is at WP:ENGVAR; in brief it recommends using the appropriate variant for the topic at hand if there is an appropriate variant; otherwise, remain consistent with the way the article has been started. So, Bhutan could have been started in any common variant, but there's no reason to change it. --AndrewHowse (talk) 20:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The Manual of Style guide on national varieties of English will tell you all you need to know. In a nutshell though, WP doesn't standardise on one form, but does encourage editors to keep the use consistent within an article. Also, if the subject has a strong national tie, then favour the appropriate variation. Eg. Barack Obama's article should use American spelling, and Sydney Opera House should use Australian etc. ∙ AJCham^talk 20:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

(e/c) Basically, an article that has strong regional ties to a specific dialect of English should use that dialect, else it's just whichever one it was originally written in. So articles about London and London would use British spellings, while the article on London would use American spellings. (Confused yet? =P) Since Bhutan has nothing to do with the UK, the US, or any other English-speaking country, then I guess the person who initially wrote it was British. Xenon54 / talk / 20:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Many thanks to all. :) Digital Satyr (talk) 20:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

Resolved

 – by ChemGardener. --AndrewHowse (talk) 20:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have found that someone by the name of 204.196.37.100 has vandalized the article Sodium. How do I report this? Thanks!99.179.26.161 (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Already fixed. Persistent vandalism can be reported at WP:AIV, but this is the encyclopaedia anyone can edit, so feel free to revert vandalism when you see it! --AndrewHowse (talk) 20:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! I actually had tried to get rid of it, but for some reason, when I previewed the edit, the image of sodium wasn't there. Oh well... 99.179.26.161 (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)