Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2021 July 7

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July 7

Citing a magazine

Hello. How do I cite a magazine without a URL? versacespaceleave a message! 04:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@VersaceSpace: Use {{Cite_magazine}}. The URL parameter is optional as far as I know, since sources don't need to be online. RudolfRed (talk) 04:40, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@RudolfRed: an error message shows up when i dont use it versacespaceleave a message! 06:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Where can we see this error message? Maproom (talk) 07:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@VersaceSpace: - which article is this affecting? Mjroots (talk) 10:32, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@VersaceSpace: If you include an access date, it will demand a URL. Cites of printed publication do not need an access date as they don't change over time.--Verbarson (talk) 14:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Fire base Argonne

Hello

I wrote a book about fire base Argonne and added it to the history. Why was it deleted? It was accurately listed!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.108.243.224 (talk)

As written in the edit history, "unless you are using the book as a reference for something about the subject it should not be added, that is pure promotion". Wikipedia has no interest in helping you tell the world about your book. 331dot (talk) 09:20, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I created a draft. How do I create a page?

I created a draft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Ongarbayev_Erkin_Anuarovich How do I create a page? Administrators, please help me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Омарбекова Асель Сайлаубековна (talk • contribs) 7 July 2021 10:30 (UTC)

@Омарбекова Асель Сайлаубековна: You can submit the draft for review by clicking the blue 'review' button in the grey notice at the top of the draft. This will place it in a list of items awaiting the attention of AFC reviewers. Please be patient there is a considerable backlog. (Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing four keyboard tildes like this: ~~~~. Or, you can use the [ reply ] button, which automatically signs posts.) Thank you. Eagleash (talk) 13:08, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Омарбекова Асель Сайлаубековна, this is not a question that needs an administrator. Anyone could tell you "Click the blue button 'Submit the draft for review!'." But please don't. Because if you do, the submission will fail. Why? For example, his (i.e. your) "List of labor activities" starts off with twelve items. Not one of these is sourced. Every one must be reliably sourced. And this is just one of the problems. But thank you for your candor in calling this an autobiography. -- Hoary (talk) 13:14, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

why wikipedia is lying about covid-19 and ivermectin

Why are wikipedia contributerslying about Ivermectin? have they been sponsored by government or just misinformed. Eitherway the site needs todelete the lies and include the truth that this drug is useful for covid 19 and has had studies and acceptance in american medical journals — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:c7f:68c7:7700:78e2:c9d2:327c:c2ba (talk • contribs) 7 July 2021 11:43 (UTC)

Wikipedia reports what has been published in reliable sources. If you have can find reliable sources for the claim that invermectin is effective against Covid, and outweigh the five sources cited at the end of that article's opening section, you should leave details on the article's talk page. Maproom (talk) 12:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Please link to any articles you wish to discuss; please note that Wikipedia reports on what has been written about a topic in independent, reliable sources and all statements should be supported by such sources. Wikipedia strives for neutrality in its articles The best place to raise any concerns you may have is at the article talk page where interested editors are more likely to see them. You can propose any changes you might wish to see made but reliable sourcing will be required. You can make an edit request using Template:Request edit. Eagleash (talk) 12:24, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I would further note that medical information has stricter sourcing requirements, please see WP:MEDRS. 331dot (talk) 12:48, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: Medical information has stricter sourcing requirements, but that's not really the issue here as multiple peer reviewed meta-analyses speak in favor of Ivermectin. The problem in the Ivermectin conflict is that Wikipedia currently prefers sources that aren't peer reviewed (CDC/WHO etc) or that are peer reviewed non-neutral sources (opinion pieces) over peer reviewed sources.

Ignoring the multiple peer reviewed meta-analsyis in favor of Ivermectin is a clear violation of the neutral point of view principle even if you grant that both authoritative non-peer-reviewed sources and peer-reviwed sources should be mentioned. ChristianKl ❪✉❫ 12:35, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Note: We've seen significant and persistent disruption and harassment of editors on medical topics from enthusiasts of ivermectin treatment, organized off-site. Acroterion (talk) 14:20, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Covid

Wikipedia censored Dr Robert Malone! This is pretty much the wrong thing to do. Censorship is totally against all freedoms, all inquisitive minds, and any balance of truth. Wiki should be honest, rather than a paid puppet. You must reinstate Dr Robert Malone for your own integrity.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.108.54.69 (talk)

Wikipedia does not censor information. But we only have articles on notable people, and it is being discussed about Robert Maloney (doctor) whether he meets that criteria or not. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:27, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

There have been several questions today about Dr Robert Wallace Malone [sic] not Maloney, who has worked on RNA vaccines and is cited three times on the RNA vaccine article, so he is certainly not "censored". However, no-one has yet drafted an article specifically about him. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I assume it's related to Reddit threads e.g. [1] & [2], and the fact he's been removed from social media platforms [3]- so people mistakenly think Wikipedia is censoring him... Joseph2302 (talk) 13:56, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Joseph2302, there seems to be a lot of comment on the topic at the moment. The Talk Page of the article has been debating this for a while now. See Talk:RNA vaccine. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:28, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

• Robert Wallace Malone is an American doctor who falsely claims he invented mRNA vaccines and that (crazy covid19 stuff that he got famous for) [ref to his twitter feed]. Those claims have been disputed by [ref, ref, ref to reliable sources]. is potentially a viable stub once the fact-checking articles get out. Of course it would be one of those perma-protected pages, but still... Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 11:37, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Varmo

When you search Varmo Italy, the picture appearing in the Google search section is wrong. that castle is in Colloredo di Montealbano, which has nothing to do with Varmo. But I do not know how to change it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.82.17.121 (talk)

That picture isn't anywhere on English language Wikipedia- it is however, on French language Wikipedia, which is a separate site. And since you issue is with Google Knowledge Graph, you will need to contact Google:

Are you by any chance referring to a photo or text shown to the right of a Google search? Google's Knowledge Graph uses a wide variety of sources. There may be a text paragraph ending with "Wikipedia" to indicate that particular text was copied from Wikipedia. An image and other text before or after the Wikipedia excerpt may be from sources completely unrelated to Wikipedia. We have no control over how Google presents our information, but Google's Knowledge Graph has a "Feedback" link where anyone can mark a field as wrong. The same feedback facility is also provided on Bing and some other search engines. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:53, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I have found another image on Wikimedia Commons and changed the images on the English and French language Wikipedias and on Wikidata. Hopefully the Google image will update in due course. TSventon (talk) 15:20, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Joseph2302 Wikipedia editors can't directly change Google Knowledge Graphs, but in this case Google was picking up an error on Wikipedia, which we can and should correct. TSventon (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

At the point I checked, the photo wasn't on en.wiki, which is the only place we're responsible for. Complaints for Wikidata or fr.wiki would need to be raised there, and Google themselves could actually correct it anyway, if they wanted. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:40, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Joseph2302 I was just suggesting that your answer was incomplete as you didn't say that complaints for fr.wiki would need to be raised there. You may of course disagree. TSventon (talk) 12:02, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

That's true, I meant to say to use fr.wiki help desk, but didn't. :) Joseph2302 (talk) 12:22, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Antonia Lyon-Smith

Hi Folks!! Can somebody please take a look at Antonia Lyon-Smith specifically the bib section. There seems to be some gap in the cite, that I can't get rid off. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 14:59, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Done. The 30em parameter was stretching the title out to fit - not sure why that was there at all? Wikignome Wintergreen^talk 15:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Wikignome Wintergreen: Thanks for that. scope_creep^Talk 15:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

What written guidance is there on writing about unsafe consumer products?

Hi

I've done some work on the article Peloton (exercise equipment company), this isn't my usual area of writing. The company have produced a treadmill that has killed a child and injured dozens, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission issued a warning to immediately stop using it (which the company initially resisted). The company has now requires $480 per year subscription charge to use the treadmill (which the company has claimed is temporary).

A couple of questions; is there guidance on how to write about unsafe consumer products (e.g should it be mentioned in the introduction) and how to decide on what weight to give the issue within the article?

Also a warning: some of references on the safety recall have a video of a child being dragged under a treadmill and being injured, its quite graphic.

@Ew3234: for info, since we are discussing on the talk page.

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 15:25, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

John Cummings I don't know about specific guidance but one would just need to take care to give the proper due weight and careful sourcing. If a government agency made a formal determination that a product was unsafe and ordered a recall, the article content would need to be worded as such. 331dot (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Thinking about it I don't think the CPSC can order a recall. 331dot (talk) 15:40, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is specific guidance other than the general due weight and neutral point of view policies. However, I always like to look at similar articles. For example: Lawn darts has roughly half the article devoted to the safety issue. Kinder Surprise has roughly 1/3 of the article devoted to the safety issue. Thalidomide is roughly half about the birth defects. I would look at articles in Category:Toy recalls, Category:Product recalls, Category:Withdrawn drugs, Category:Food recalls, and similar categories to get a feel for how those issues are handled. ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 17:14, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks all for the feedback and thanks John Cummings for starting this discussion. The recall is already covered in some length in the article so it's less of a question of if we should cover the topic. Rather, it's more of a question if the recall should also be referenced in the lede. Let me know if I've correctly captured the area of disagreement, John. I don't mean to speak on your behalf. Ew3234 (talk) 07:13, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks very much Ew3234, this is really helpful, I'd add two more small subquestions to this.

1. How to describe the death, injuries and the recall, in the section on it, currently the title places emphasis on the recall, not reason, the death and injuries and the warning.
2. The same for the lede, if it should be included in the lede, then how? E.g 'the company recalled and added a $480 a year subscription charge due to a warning issued by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission after a child was killed and 40 injured by.... ' or should it be more like 'After the death of a child and 40 being injured by the Tread and Tread+ models of treadmill, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission issued a warning which lead to the company placing a $480 a year subscription charge on the machines or a refund.' The second one makes more logic sense to me as it is explaining the events in order, but again I don't know what the rules are. John Cummings (talk) 10:38, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

John Cummings Generally, the lead should summarize the body. At the moment, I would say the lead on Peloton (exercise equipment company) is a little too short and does not adequately summarize the content of the article. A sentence about the safety issue should definitely be included in the lead. I think your second option is better than the first one, however I would tweak it as follows: "After one child died and 40 more were injured by the Tread and Tread+ models of treadmill, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission issued a warning, leading the company to offer a choice of a subscription charge for added safety features or a refund." ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 15:52, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks ONUnicorn, Ew3234 is this ok with you? John Cummings (talk) 17:44, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for checking in, John Cummings. I'm not comfortable with the "choice of a subscription charge for added safety features" text as that is not factually correct (see the talk page for more on why). But I'm good with everything else. One note, the Tread+ was recalled for child safety concerns but the Tread was recalled for a different issue so it might be worth expressing that. Maybe something like this, "After one child died and 40 more were injured by the Tread+ model of treadmill, Peloton issued a recall on the Tread+ due to safety concerns involving children and pets getting swept under the belt. The Tread model was also recalled at the same time." Ew3234 (talk) 00:48, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

TAKE DOWN THE LIST OF SEX CHARGES ON RON JEREMY'S WIKI PAGE ASAP

Hi,

can you please assist...

Ron Jeremy's wiki page has accounts of charges pressed against him of sexual charges...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Jeremy

Since someone listed sex charges on his page..Ron has been in jail all this time and has health problems and is not tech savvy .. therefore I will tell you that listing the sex crime allegations on his page is TOTALLY UNNESSARILY SO PLEASE TAKE THAT INFORMATION DOWN ASAP

It suggests by having it up that you wish to publically embarrass him and treat him like an outcast and leave stigma for his family and friends to deal with...

it is not a celeb gossip page is it?

Also why list sex charges... and not random things like parking tickets? So listing just sex charges looks like you guys want him to appear like a sexual predator for ever and eternity which is not fare for him as sources close know allegations were not true and he was framed.. NOT FARE FOR THE STIGMA LEFT FOR HIS FAMILY AND FRIENDS EITHER

So seriously TAKE DOWN THE LIST OF SEX CHARGES on Ron Jeremy's page..

OR ELSE I WILL REPORT YOU GUYS ELSEWHERE

IT IS LIKE A CYBER HATE CRIME ...

PLEASE EDIT THE PAGE ...it may be Mike Esterman that runs the page but he dislikes Ron as has been know to do shady things with his social media before so intervene and take it down— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:ddb0:2700:49af:943a:3ed6:f80b (talk • contribs)

It is all properly sourced according to Wikipedia-standards. No reason to censor this article. When found not guilty, it will appear here. The same when he is found guilty. The Banner talk 17:20, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

It is well sourced and the lead clearly states there has been no court hearing yet. In addition, Mr. Jeremy works in the pornographic industry so it is perhaps unsurprising that such accusations (even if untrue) would be made. I don't know who you are going to report Wikipedia to but please be aware of no legal threats. It's not Mr. Jeremy's "wiki page", but an article about him, summarizing independent reliable sources. 331dot (talk) 17:25, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@331dot and The Banner: I think the person above could have put this better, and personally I find Ron Jeremy a... distasteful figure... however, may I ask if this might possible violate WP:BLPCRIME? As he has only been charged, is it because he is a public figure that we are including the charges? - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 06:25, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

How do I create a 2nd article? My sandbox is filled with redirect message.

I created a first article years ago. Now I want to create a second article, but my sandbox is filled with a redirect message.

My sandbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Busypencil/sandbox&redirect=no

Can I get this redirect stuff out or somehow find a blank form in which to write my second article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Busypencil (talk • contribs) 18:11, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@Busypencil: Welcome to Wikipedia. Another editor saw your post at the Teahouse and fixed this for you. Next time, please only ask in one place. RudolfRed (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the above answer, if you want to have more than one page at a time, you can try User:Busypencil/sandbox2, User:Busypencil/sandbox3...etc. You can also try the draftspace but that arena is more regulated than your sandbox. ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 18:46, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Fair use feasability for the Jacob Clearwater House

The Jacob Clearwater House is a currently-standing historic building, but seems to be located on a private road that is inaccessible to the public, with a "No Trespassing" sign. Would an image of this building in this article on the house qualify for fair use under these circumstances? Am I correct in saying that it's inaccessible, and how would I prove it in a fair use argument if it is? Thanks, Tyrone Madera (talk) 20:15, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't know. I would suggest you take this question to Wikipedia:Media copyright questions, a more specialized noticeboard, if no one else here is able to help. Thanks! ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 20:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

When a person is dead, it's no longer possible to take a photo of them, so the use of a copyrighted but "fair use" photo is warranted. But this house still exists. Even if you can't get there by road, you can take a picture of it with a drone, or hire someone to. Maproom (talk) 07:14, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Maproom & Tigraan, Wouldn't that run afoul of #1 under WP:NFC#UUI of the the images section of WP:FAIRUSE? There it states:

In considering the ability to take a free photograph, it is expected that the photographer respect all local property and privacy laws and restrictions. For example, we would not accept a free photograph of a structure on inaccessible private property that is not visible from public locations.

Would a drone really subvert this? Best, Tyrone Madera (talk) 17:12, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Technically, the question is not "fair use" (which almost any use on Wikipedia would pass), but our own more restrictive policies, here WP:NFCC #1. I do believe Maproom's interpretation of "if it is physically possible to create one" it is the current consensus (disclaimer: I think that is too restrictive and I would rather have "if it is possible without unreasonable efforts" as the standard).

I note that the article has a (dead) link to oregon.gov. If there was an image of the house hosted there, that would be a good lead. The site does not have a clear copyright statement and state government works are not generally public domain, but a request for permission to the webmaster would have a good chance to release a CC-BY-SA copy. See some templates here. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 11:15, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

It is technically possible to get a picture: Simply send a polite letter by physical mail to the current address of the house, asking the owners to either take the picture or grant permission to a Wikipedian to take the picture. This is a lot lower barrier than e.g. getting a free image of a living celebrity, and we prohibit the use of a non-free image in that case. -Arch dude (talk) 20:33, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

It's also theoretically possible to get an out-of-copyright photo, as the house was built in 1874. So if a photo exists from prior to 1926, then that would be out of copyright in the US, and thus useable. Or a photo that meets anyone of the first 6 criteria on Template:PD-US. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:40, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Joseph2302, Follow up: Do you know where I should start when it comes to finding such old photos? Tyrone Madera (talk) 17:15, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Tyrone Madera, there is a public domain 1890 photo of the house in the NRHP nomination form. If you click on the first reference, there is an option to download the PDF containing all the documentation, and that will also allow you to expand the article. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:28, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Cullen328, Thank you so much! This fixes everything. Thank you to all those who responded to help! Best, Tyrone Madera (talk) 17:38, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Externality

In the formal definition, the phrase "Suppose that each agent has a type theta sub i. How is type defined? Type of what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moehoward2020 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello - what article are you referring to? Wikipedia's article on Externality does not appear to use the quoted phrase. This Help Desk is for Wikipedia-related questions, only. Thank you ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 21:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@El cid, el campeador: Externality#Formal definition; theta is a Greek letter, with a subscript. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moehoward2020 (talk • contribs)

@Moehoward2020:, you might try asking at the reference desk, where subject-matter experts will be able to help you. The people here (myself included!) will probably be unable to decipher this article. Cheers, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:13, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@Moehoward2020: - Or you could also ask on the article talk page, Talk:Externality. You could also tag the phrase with {{clarify}} to request clarification. Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 03:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Kosovo edits

FYI

 – Heading added by Tenryuu.

Hello, i want to edit the KSF page because i live in Kosovo and i know what they posses and what they will, the reason is i work there. And there are more details which for now are not public and i can't take the notes there. But for known stuffs i can put in to the page.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zgjim Grajqevci (talk • contribs)

@Zgjim Grajqevci: So long as the information you're adding is covered in reliable sources and not from your experiences, you may submit this information as an edit request; please make sure you say exactly where you want it, what the content says, and that you provide the relevant source for verification. Since you work there please disclose a conflict of interest, specifically a paid relationship, on your user page. You may use {{paid}} to do so. (Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by typing four keyboard tildes like this: ~~~~. Or, you can use the [ reply ] button, which automatically signs posts.) —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:12, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

The edit summary in the article's history shows that your most recent edit was reverted because you broke the syntax of the table and because you used an invalid method of trying to include an image. --David Biddulph (talk) 22:16, 7 July 2021 (UTC)