Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2024 February 12

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February 12

David Blackburn (Royal Navy officer)

I have added a commons painting which is WAY too big. Sorry. Please put in the caption underneath the new file: "Blackburn is seen 5th from left in Algernon Talmage's 1937 sketch for his painting "The Founding of Australia".

Please place this citation after the caption: https://infobuttevalley.biz.id/is-kate-the-princess-of-new-south-wales-one-of-her-ancestors-was-aboard-the-royal-navys-first-fleet-which-landed-to-establish-a-penal-colony-writes-claudia-joseph/

Thank you 175.38.42.62 (talk) 01:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Simply replace

_%28cropped%29.jpg

with

_%28cropped%29.jpg|thumb|Blackburn is seen 5th from left in Algernon Talmage's 1937 sketch for his painting "The Founding of Australia".

-- Hoary (talk) 02:04, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The website to whose page you want to link says of itself: Our Website is a Professional News Online Platform. Here we will provide you only interesting content, which you will like very much. We’re dedicated to providing you the best of News Online, with a focus on dependability and Breaking News. We’re working to turn our passion for News Online into a booming online website. We hope you enjoy our News Online as much as we enjoy offering them to you. / I will keep posting more important posts on my Website for all of you. Please give your support and love. Oh dear. -- Hoary (talk) 02:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I have fixed up the picture and I understand why the citation was not good! Please check the newly placed reference 7 - is that OK?

Thank you 175.38.42.62 (talk) 03:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, all's well ... except for one thing. You've now made the article cite newsbreak.com, which is deprecated. And there's something else that seems most odd to me. We're shown a painting (most definitely not a mere sketch) that's captioned "Blackburn is seen fifth from left in Algernon Talmage's sketch for his 1937 painting 'The Founding of Australia'". Is "Algernon Talmage's sketch for his 1937 painting" perhaps a mistake for "Algernon Talmage's 1937 painting"? -- Hoary (talk) 03:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

It is a sketch, the final painting is slightly different at hangs at Tate Britain. Does "depreciated" mean the citation is no good? This information is all from a Daily Mail UK article which I'm aware I cannot use.

Here is the article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13010973/Princess-Wales-New-South-Navy.html

Please advise and thanks again 1.145.166.209 (talk) 04:02, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Don't use the Daily Mail. See WP:DAILYMAIL RudolfRed (talk) 04:52, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you shouldn't use the Daily Mail, or material depending on it. Well, I was wrong about the painting not being a sketch. As a sketch, it's remarkable. -- Hoary (talk) 05:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Even if it can be shown from reliable sources that this oil sketch does indeed show Blackburn, then in reality it's Blackburn undifferentiated from those around him, all as imagined by Talmage, who not only wasn't there to witness the scene but can't even have consulted anyone who was there. The oil sketch is a pleasant embellishment for the article, but I think no more. How about retaining it, but with the unreferenced caption "Algernon Talmage's sketch for his 1937 painting The Founding of Australia"? -- Hoary (talk) 05:58, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

This reliable source - https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/the-founding-of-australia-1788-202181 gives the individual's names for the "final" Tate Britain painting - we can thus deduce where Blackburn is standing (in the same place) in the sketch - i.e, this image under discussion. Thanks again for your help. 115.70.23.77 (talk) 23:22, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

We're told: "Medium: Oil on canvas | Work type: Painting." Ummm.... As has been demonstrated above, I am an art ignoramus. But for what very little my opinion is worth, what we're looking at here is not an oil painting on canvas. (Yes, it might well have been derived from one.) Still, whatever the picture is, the web page does indeed show that Talmage imagined and painted Blackburn there. -- Hoary (talk) 23:59, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Entry

How does one provide information? 172.193.144.133 (talk) 02:11, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Please go to Help:Introduction. -- Hoary (talk) 02:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

What exactly happened with this AfD?

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but I don't really know why this AfD hasn't been closed. It was relisted once, on January 28, and not since, but it's still open somehow... PARAKANYAA (talk) 04:14, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@PARAKANYAA: it seems like the relist didn't properly transclude it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 January 28, and the bot which normally fixes this doesn't seem to have picked it up either. I've manually transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 January 28 for now, but we might need to do a technical relist if Mathbot doesn't pick the log up. Courtesy pings: @Star Mississippi: as closer, @Cyberpower678: as the maintainer of the bot which normally fixes broken log transclusions, and @Oleg Alexandrov: as the maintainer of Mathbot. Victor Schmidt (talk) 07:21, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Victor Schmidt and apologies @PARAKANYAA. Not sure what happened there to cause the glitch. Star Mississippi 02:19, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi @Victor Schmidt Sorry for the ping, but relisting doesn't seem to have done anything. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

This happens from time to time. If nobody else notices then the AfD shows up at the top of User:DumbBOT/TimeSortedAfD eventually which I or someone else will clean up. I just closed the AfD as keep, since the consensus seems clear enough. The previous one I closed was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Demand signal repository. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 05:42, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Movie: A Patch of Blue. Need some information

In the film A Patch of Blue, a classical music piece is played on a record player on two separate occasions. The piece is not identified in the Wikipedia article, which limits itself to original score music. I would like to find the name of that piee of music. Gunghay (talk) 04:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Gunghay: The Help Desk is for questions about Wikipedia. Other questions can go to the Reference Desk, such as WP:RDE RudolfRed (talk) 04:54, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Gunghay: Hey, I'll steal the ref desk's thunder anyway: the piece is the 2nd movement ('Tempo di valse') from Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings, Op. 48. MinorProphet (talk) 01:51, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Resolved

P.S. Film tricks 101: The shot starting at 51:50 shows a Coronet Holiday portable record player[1] with what appears to be a 'drop automatic' stack of 78 rpm shellac records[2] ready to play the next side in a 3-disc set, say perhaps Eugene Ormandy conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra in 1947 on Columbia Masterworks MM-677.[3][4][5] On the soundtrack, the 1st movement of the Serenade ends, and we see and hear the disc of the 2nd movement clunking down onto the turntable and start to play. But the brief shot of the top record is not the third disc of any classical set but what seems to be a popular vocal item - you can just make out the words "Sung By". So it makes it somewhat unlikely that we actually are listening to the original recording. I started off with a similar Dansette radiogram[6] and progressed to one of these which makes a genuinely stunning sound. MinorProphet (talk) 06:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Template:Broader

Should Template:Broader be used as the hatnote of an article itself or only a section? 83.168.137.1 (talk) 14:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

This template is used as the hatnote of a section, and links to an article. It is the most similar to Template:Main, but the page it directs to does not necessarily contain a more detailed account (the most detailed version available) of what is covered in the section and instead contains an equally- or less-detailed account presented in the context of a broader topic. The section heading and the title of the article linked in the broader hatnote don't have to match very closely. With the main template, they should essentially match. —Alalch E. 14:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

per it's manual: the template main should not be used in the lead section of an article, for such cases the Template:Broader should be used but it's usage section doesnt say if it should be used in the lead of an article 83.168.137.1 (talk) 14:24, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

When the broader hatnote is placed as a top hatnote (meaning in the lead section), it will always be a case of WP:LEGITHAT, meaning that instead of a hatnote, this broader topic should be mentioned in the lead's prose to provide vital context and help define the core subject (which is different for sections, which may only fragmentarily cover a particular other topic, its aspect or constituent element, in a non-comprehensive, non-summarizing, way, in the service of explaining the article's core subject, and mentioning that whole other topic, in its full breadth, in a section's prose might not be natural; but a hatnote is a nice-to-have). Suggesting placing {{Broader}} as a top hatnote means suggesting placing {{Broader|Operation Overlord}} on top of Normandy landings' lead. And that would be incorrect. The broader template's doc correctly says to use it in sections, and wherever it is said to also use it as a top hatnote, that is bad advice. —Alalch E. 18:06, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

im referring to last sentence of the lead section of Template:Main, sounds like it should be removed, hopefully this edit request fixes that 83.168.137.1 (talk) 06:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Elijah Palombo

(New section header added by MinorProphet)

Who were Eli Palombo's ( Haham Bashi 1780-1800) decedent's 102.165.160.40 (talk) 14:37, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

 Courtesy link: Hakham Bashi § Chief Rabbis of the Ottoman Empire (Hahambașı)

Hi. This is the main Help Desk for asking questions about using Wikipedia itself. A better place to ask this question is at the Humanities Reference Desk. Hope you find the answer there. MinorProphet (talk) 15:46, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Displaying timeline

Hello, is there any method to display a bunch of events in chronological order in a template? For example, in a war, there would be several battles and events, so for displaying all these events in a chronological order, is there any template? Imperial^[AFCND] 15:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Template:Timeline has links to a variety of tools for doing timelines. From your question, I can't figure out which to recommend (for example, "displaying...in a chronological order" just sounds like a regular list or two-column table). DMacks (talk) 15:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes. A column for the year, and the other column for describing the alternate event. Which one should I use? Imperial^[AFCND] 16:12, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

It depends on the circumstances. Which page is it about and where in the page do you want the timeline? PrimeHunter (talk) 16:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I was about to use it on the Bahmani-Vijayanagar War. And a list with the chronological order of the conflict timeline, it's causes, and aftermath, would make the readers to catch up the article easier. In the article, we could see there were two conflicts at a place called Mudgal, and the infobox; strength parameter only provides the strength of both sides of a single conflict. Imperial^[AFCND] 16:40, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

If you want an article section with summary info then it should just use a table and not a template. Something like List of Texas Revolution battles. But Bahmani-Vijayanagar War already has sections about battles and then it would be unusual to also have a timeline in the same article. You also mention causes and aftermath for your timeline but there are already prelude and aftermath sections, and the lead mentions it briefly. Do you want a third version in the same article? That sounds like too much. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I thought it wasn't enough (⁠◔⁠‿⁠◔⁠). Got it. Imperial^[AFCND] 18:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

fairness of Wikipedia

I have donated to wikipedia several times. Now you are allowing Israel to run whatever it wants . Example is Henkel page on Wikipedia. I am so disappointed and will never donate to you again. 2601:143:8200:64F0:D990:76A7:4751:19BA (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

What is your issue with the article Henkel? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.107.217 (talk) 17:40, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

We editors have nothing to do with the donation process, and the Foundation that collects the donations is not involved in day to day operations. If you have a concern about a specific article, please civilly discuss it on the relevant article talk page. 331dot (talk) 17:50, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

HOW TO CREATE A BIOGRAPHY PAGE?

I am trying to create a biography page for a living prominent person but i don't know how Joeblack2024 (talk) 18:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Start by reading Help:Your first article, @Joeblack2024. Creating an article is pretty difficult for someone who's new to Wikipedia; it would be better to spend time doing small edits to existing articles and learning how things work. 57.140.16.1 (talk) 18:29, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Joeblack2024: "Pretty difficult" is something of an understatement. Trying to fly a helicopter in a hurricane while attempting to juggle scorpions, reading the complete works of Shakespeare, and reciting the first 1000 decimal places of pi is much easier. Basically, just don't. The learning curve is unbelievably steep: it's like trying to climb the north face of the Eiger on your first rock-climbing expedition while wearing shorts, trainers and a t-shirt. The criteria for WP:Biographies of living people are notoriously exacting anyway. Is this person WP:Notable? This term has a very specific meaning on Wikipedia. Also, if you happen to be that "living prominent person" you refer to, the barriers to you writing about yourself are almost insurmountable. And we have articles on WP, not 'pages'. Pick a subject you know something about, and hunt around for articles to improve. Try WP:Referencing for beginners, that'll keep you busy for a while. I was doing little things for about three years before I felt confident of writing an article from scratch by myself. Stick around anyway, best of luck. PS On the interwebs, USING ALL CAPS IS CONSIDERED SHOUTING. We hear you. MinorProphet (talk) 02:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Shortcut for Importing a Sister Project Template?

Is there a shortcut notation for importing a Template to use from an outside sister project?ELApro (talk) ELApro (talk) 18:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

If you are asking whether you can transclude a page from another Wiki, I think the answer is No. Help:Transclusion does not explicitly say so, but no examples show this, and there are a couple of links in the "Other" section at the bottom where people have asked for this, and even started working on a Mediawiki extension to allow it.

Of course you can copy a Template from one Wiki to another (observing the licensing requirement for attribution, of course) but you'll need to make sure that you copy any templates or modules that the template depends on as well. ColinFine (talk) 20:05, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Referencing errors on Danielle Campbell

Reference help requested.

Hello! I was wondering if someone could me through putting the correct link for my edit to Danielle Campbell's Wiki page.

Thanks, 76.138.239.85 (talk) 21:23, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:40, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

PrimeBOT 17

I was originally going to create a VPI post suggesting we automatically strip UTM parameters from URLs, but after looking into it, it seems that the PrimeBOT task above is already set up to do that. ...however, the bot's list of tasks says the task is "stalled", and e.g. Charmaine Yee still has UTM parameters from May 2023, so I'm guessing the task isn't running at all currently. Would anyone have any ideas what the issue with it was, and how to resolve it so it can begin running again?

(Side note: the Charmaine Yee article is a festival of Instagram and personal-website links, was edited by "Charyee" and a string of IPs one of whom "added references as guided by editorial team" ([7] [8]), and was originally created by a user now banned for socketpuppeting and possible UPE. ...which brings me to my other question: is there any way articles that the bot finds UTM parameters in could be listed somewhere, so we can catch more NOTPROMO-offenders like this?) 2603:8001:4542:28FB:CD62:3CEC:4780:D05D (talk) 21:58, 12 February 2024 (UTC) (Send talk messages here instead)

Not an answer, but ... the odour of promotional flatus coming off Charmaine Yee is indeed overpowering. Take as an example the second sentence: She hosts events graced by ministers and eminent guests and interviews celebrities and luminaries. -- Hoary (talk) 23:49, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Versatile and professional, she brings high energy and lively wit to every event she hosts. Alas unreferenced. -- Hoary (talk) 00:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I have trimmed overtly promotional content. Cullen328 (talk) 00:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Well done, Cullen328. As I'm sure you're well aware, your work, though substantial, is incomplete -- there's still chatter about "stars" and "luminaries". But in view of its abysmal sourcing, perhaps this thing is destined for AfD. -- Hoary (talk) 02:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Hoary, I did some further trimming and do not object to AfD in this case. Cullen328 (talk) 02:51, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Cullen328, invitation accepted. -- Hoary (talk) 08:48, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, you could ask its operator. —Cryptic 00:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The operator changed "Ongoing" to "Stalled" in May 2021 with edit summary "honestly not really doing these".[9] PrimeHunter (talk) 00:29, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I can start it back up if desired, I'll watch this thread and/or someone can post on my talk. I stopped because it was an ad-hoc task that I only ran occasionally anyway, and didn't really ever get into a set rhythm for doing so. I might try to make it a quarterly thing to try and catch newer instances more frequently. Primefac (talk) 06:30, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

If that wouldn't be too much trouble on your part, I would greatly appreciate that. 2603:8001:4542:28FB:D1A0:7BBB:E6CF:5C27 (talk) 20:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC) (Send talk messages here)

Sure. I've been running it most of today. Primefac (talk) 21:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)