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John Hay

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because… I intend to take it to FAC and would be grateful for feedback

Thanks, Wehwalt (talk) 05:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • The peer reviewer tool turns up several things to take a look at. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've been looking at the article, so I'll likely have some more specific review comments coming in the next couple days. In general, I appreciate the effort that went into making such a detailed article, although I don't think it's FA-quality at this point. Editors should take a look at 1) potential hagiographic writing; 2) removing trivial material that doesn't have much to do with the subject; 3) possibly spinning off a part (e.g., literary career) into a subarticle. #2 and #3 speak to the length of the article -- it feels very long at this point, and any reasonable effort to make it more concise is a good idea. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 14:12, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to write about 10 percent long which saves on adding stuff. But the literary career has to be covered in the main article. Hay is a significant literary figure.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:59, 17 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley – first batch, down to the end of "Ambassador" section:

  • Student and Lincoln supporter
    • "Hay did not support Lincoln for president until…" – from the context I think this means not giving active and practical support until…, but it reads rather as though he was against the idea until…
He was indifferent and not really "into" presidential politics. Spent his time with unenthusiastic law reading and emotional letters to his fellow poets in Providence about how out of place he was in the West. Today, no doubt he'd be an "emo kid". Open to suggestions.
    • "and Nicolay, who Lincoln had asked" – whom, or is that now seen as old hat in the US?
I was told once, I cannot remember by whom, that whom is disfavored in the MOS, but if they care, they can object.
  • Secretary to Lincoln
    • "Hay, with his charm, escaped much of the hard feelings from those denied Lincoln's presence, that fell heavily on Nicolay" – this gets itself a bit lost, I think: I wonder if it would be clearer as something like "Unlike Nicolay, Hay, with his charm, escaped much of the hard feelings from those denied Lincoln's presence."
More or less adopted, though I give Nicolay the adjective "dour".
    • "as untried rail-splitter" – a what?
That's how many viewed Lincoln. But cut.
    • "Similarly, Hay served as "White House propagandist" – if this is a quote from Taliafero (or anyone else) you ought to attribute it in the text, I think. If it isn't, then you could comfortably lose the quotation marks altogether.
It is a quote from Taliaferro. Attributed.
    • "as normal a life as possible … reading Les Misérables in French" – this was normal for young American men of the period?
For someone of Hay's brains and (developing) sophistication, I think it's passable.
    • "secretaries's" – just ess-apostrophe, I'd say.
OK.
    • "According to Thayer, "the person who dominated [Hay] from his first day in the White House was Lincoln"" – a less than surprising statement. Does it need saying?
I suppose. Cut.
  • Presidential emissary
    • The second para broke the flow of my reading at two points where I felt a necessary explanation was missing. The first is "marveling at the differences between North and South" (such as?) and the second, "less hardened in his thinking about African Americans" (where we don't know what his hitherto hard thoughts had been).
Cut in both cases. It would take more space than it's worth to explain about Hay's attitude towards African-Americans, but one of the Pike County Ballads is the speech of a man addressing the "White Citizens Council" of Stumpy Point, Illinois (the original name of Warsaw) telling them that if they want to throw out of town the black ex-soldier who saved his life at Gettysburg, they will have to reckon with him first.
  • Tribune and marriage
    • "But by 1873" – why the "but"? There seems nothing of "on the other hand" about the statement.
    • "Hay's outrage. Hay blamed" – perhaps "he" for the second Hay?
Both done.
  • Return to politics
    • "who Hay did not support" – another "who" that I'd make "whom" unless such a usage is now hopelessly outdated in the US.
Done per above.
  • McKinley backer
    • "Hay backed Olney in conversations, and in a letter to The Times" – I think we need a citation for this: I have sent you by email the only letter I can find from Hay to The Times in 1896, and it isn't about Venezuela, but all to do with "free silver". It may be that there is another letter lurking in the archives, but I'm blest if I can unearth one.
I can only blame my blind faith in Kushner & Sherrill (p. 81) "A Republican, Hay strongly supported the Democratic administration in this dispute and even wrote a letter explaining his view to the London Times. " A glance in back of the book details various letters from Hay to sundry people, but no reference directly to the newspaper. Possibly Hay said he did in one of these letters. Will delete.
  • Ambassador
    • "a two-story Georgian house on Carlton House Terrace" – no such building existed. Carlton House Terrace, where I spent more than 20 years of my working life, consists of large Nash terraces, four storeys high. Hay was at No 5, now the Turf Club: see here. And if we're being picky, Hay had a sub-lease from Caledon who was himself the lessee of my former employer, the Crown.
The quote (p. 315) is "The house was a two-story Georgian, entered from Pall Mall". I shall delete the statistic and the (intermediary) landlord. These authors. I did meander by the area in my wanderings about London, but had not yet downloaded this book so took no special notice, more fool me.
    • While I was checking my facts about CHT (as we old inhabitants called it) I ran across this tribute to Hay as Ambassador from a contemporary: "In the long list of famous American Ministers in London, none could have given the work quite the completeness, the harmony, the perfect ease of Hay." (From here.) Rather a nice thing to have said of one.
Henry Adams was a bit biased, but his antecedents were impeccable given that his father was minister in London under Lincoln, and he was the grandson and great-grandson of presidents. I do mention his praise of Hay later on.
So you do. And very pleasing too! Tim riley talk 09:09, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

More soonest. I'm enjoying this greatly. Tim riley talk 10:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Second and concluding comments from TR

  • Boxer Rebellion
    • "the issue of American imperialism was being raised by the Democrats" – were they for or against it?
  • Death of McKinley
    • "should anything happen to McKinley" – anything? This seems like a coy euphemism for death.
He could have resigned, been removed from office. The offhand phrasing is of course because something does happen to McKinley along the lines you mention!
  • Staying on
    • "Clarence King passed away" – another genteel WP:Euphemism. He didn't pass away, pass over or pass out – he died.
    • "In fact, by then the matter was moot" – clearly not moot: there being a fait accompli there was nothing to moot.
  • Literary career
    • I'm sorry to say that I think drastic pruning is wanted here. Perhaps a spin-off article? As present we have 2,500 words on Hay's literary output, which is really too much, in my view. We gave Disraeli 600 words on what, I think most people would agree, is a more substantial corpus of work. I haven't commented on the drafting here, hoping to see 2,000 or so of the words cut or shifted to their own space.
      • Later: I hadn't clocked the discussion below when I wrote this. I've added a mite there for good measure.
  • Assessment and legacy

That's all from me. With the one (admittedly substantial) reservation about the size of the lit crit section I found the article highly readable, balanced and well sourced. – Tim riley talk 08:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I've finally gotten around to dealing with your later comments. Very grateful for your review.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Crisco comments

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  • After Lincoln was nominated for president by the Republicans, Hay worked for his campaign, and after Lincoln was elected, Hay became one of his private secretaries. - can we avoid having Lincoln and Hay named twice in the sentence?
  • He remained active in politics, and from 1879 to 1881 served as Assistant Secretary of State. - Under? Or not worth including in the lead?
That was the title then, more specifically First Assistant. The First Assistant was a political appointment, the Second Assistant at least under McKinley a career employee. There was also a Third Assistant, who no doubt did something useful.
  • martyred president's historical image. - since the depiction is "martyr", would it be possible to rework this to avoid presenting the martyrdom as a fact?
Assassinated then. Yes, I'm falling into Hay's trap.
  • of Mormon revenge (that did not come), - perhaps "of a Mormon revenge that did not come"?
  • He missed many days through illness, though how much of that was due to actual physical ailments is uncertain. - through or to illness?
Both done, the latter rephrased a bit differently.
  • Hay, with his charm, escaped much of the hard feelings from those denied Lincoln's presence, that fell heavily on Nicolay. - Something bothers me about this sentence. Perhaps something like "Hay, with his charm, escaped much of the hard feelings from those denied Lincoln's presence; these feelings were redirected at Nicolay" or .... At the very least I doubt that comma is supposed to be there.
Also commented on by TR (not Roosevelt) above and recast by me.
  • The two secretaries often clashed with Mary Lincoln, who resorted to various stratagems to get the dilapidated White House restored without depleting Lincoln's salary, that had to cover entertainment and other expenses. - I'm reading this sentence as if his salary was supposed to be for entertainment and other expenses. Not sure if this is correct, as she ended up saving 70% of his salary
Yes, that is true. The president received a very large salary compared with others, but he also had to pay for expenses. And if Congress didn't appropriate funds, and usually it didn't, that included house repairs and parties. Despite the expenses, presidents often saved much of their money. I've seen references to Cleveland and McKinley doing so.
Done, I suppose it fits.
  • writer Charles G. Halpine, who knew Hay then, - "who knew Hay then" feels awkward. What about "an acquaintance of Hay's" or similar?
I'm trying to make it clear that Halpine had a basis for this. He knew Hay during the war. Your suggestion would not convey that, and add-ons to it would be just as awkward.
  • The section #Presidential emissary seems to use "Hay" a bit too much. Second paragraph has four or five.
The "Lincoln"'s interspersed in the paragraph justify most of them. One cut.
  • Hay had occasion to see and visit with freed slaves, and according to Zeitz, "Hay left South Carolina and Florida less hardened in his thinking about African Americans" - Pretty much meaningless if we don't know his original feelings.
Ditto, ditto, TR.
  • Some Unionists had sent letters to Hay, asking him to run for Congress there, - That you mean Florida is not immediately apparent. I'd probably rework as "Some Unionists had sent letters to Hay, asking him to run for Congress in Florida, and Lincoln considered the state, with its small population,"
  • Niagara Manifesto - Worth redlining?
I am inclined to let it go as is. I don't think it ever got legs, so to speak, although Lincoln said much the same thing at the Hampton Roads Conference.
  • They remained in their jobs pending the arrival and training of replacements. - last people mentioned were Nicolay and his intended
Tweaked.
  • Lincoln would always be watching". - emphasis in original (just checking)
Yeah
  • Madrid - Spain?
One usage changed to Spain
  • the Republican Party, which until then had been sterling as an aide to Lincoln. - I know you mean the reputation, but that's not how this reads
  • Hay would vent his anger over the strike in his only novel, - why the "would"?
  • One fruit of these travels was The Bread-Winners, Hay's novel written during European travels with his family. - why repeat "travels"?
Redone on all above.
  • their summer residence in Newbury, New Hampshire, The Fells. - one could read this as a statement that Newbury was in The Fells, rather than the other way around
Only by someone so literalist and ignorant of America that they most likely would get nothing out of this article, as they would have to assume that The Fells had swallowed New Hampshire. Still, rephrased.
  • unsuccessful re-election effort in 1892 - link to the 1892 election?
piped.
  • Not sure #Wilderness years is an appropriate section title... rather metaphorical
Used it fairly often in the past. Richard Nixon, Joseph Foraker are examples. I think it's fairly standard political phraseology.
  • The debts were beyond the governor's means to pay, so McKinley's promising political career might be derailed through insolvency. - Perhaps "could" instead of "might" to avoid any possible past/present ambiguity
  • Barnstorming is a fairly obscure word IMHO; perhaps it can be glossed to Wiktionary?
Piped to whistle-stop.
  • Bryan's "attempt to convert currency into class warfare", as Taliaferro puts it, was unsuccessful in much of the nation, and McKinley won the election easily, with a campaign run by himself and Hanna, and well-financed by supporters like Hay. - I recommend splitting this sentence as it has quite a few clauses
Done.
  • when British-built raiders such as the Alabama preyed on American ships. - Better to say "Union ships"?
Maybe US-flagged ships?
  • his older son Adelbert, who had been counsel in Pretoria during the Boer War and was about to become McKinley's personal secretary - worth mentioning the sons earlier?
They are mentioned in the infobox. I don't see the worth of mentioning them in text.
  • "praising "the perfectly regular course which the President did follow" as much preferable to armed occupation of the isthmus." - Just a comment: interesting to see that replacing unfriendly governments and inciting revolutions was already considered normal
It had been in 1898, and TR was certainly more bellicose.
  • An eminent physician in Italy - Who?
Taliaferro (p. 535) says it was "Dr. Stifler", a German, but gives no first name, there or in the index. Thayer said the doctor was Bavarian. Accordingly, I did not say "Italian physician".
  • In writing it, Hay was influenced by the labor unrest of the 1870s, that affected him personally, as the establishments of his father-in-law, Amasa Stone, were among those shut down by a strike in 1877 at a time when Hay had been left in charge, as Stone was away in Europe. - Feels like there are too many clauses here
Reframed a bit.
  • ticket - your first mention of this was considerably earlier.
That's why I relinked.
  • They at rare times relied on, such as Nicolay's recollection of the moment at the 1860 Republican convention when Lincoln was nominated, - relied on what, exactly? Personal recollection?
Clarified.
  • Don't think Saving Private Ryan is really worth mentioning here. Yes, it was a blockbuster, and yes, it's a pretty good film... but Hay's influence is both uncertain at best (no proof he wrote the Bixby letter) and not explicitly stated in the sources, and in the long run the film is of less impact than the Panama Canal and China issues. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, and I had trouble making that fit. Thank you for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Still adding images.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton (briefly)

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Before I start a detailed review, a comment on the length of this article. At 13500 words it will be, if promoted, one of the very longest featured biographies. The only ones I can see that are longer are Elvis Presley, Nikita Khruschev, Babe Ruth and Benjamin Disraeli – Michael Jackson is longer, too, but only because of the thousands of words added since its promotion. Does a figure like Hay really warrant such expansive treatment, far in excess of that for presidents, world leaders and major cultural figures? Bear in mind, too, that featured articles, after their promotion, almost invariably grow further – Elvis by 1000+ words, Jackson by nearly 6000, for example. There is a point, I think, beyond which "comprehensive" merges into "exhaustive", and I wonder if this article might be a case in point. Brianboulton (talk) 20:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am gradually cutting it back and hope to do so by about 10 percent. It's going to be long because of the literary section, like Disraeli actually.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think migrating part of The Bread-Winners to the article on the book, and starting one for the Hay-Nicolay biography of Lincoln (certainly worth an article!), would help a bit. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've actually started work on expansion of The Bread-Winners here as I got most of the necessary sources in my Hay research (there's an introductory essay to a 60s edition of it I want to read, though). There's still a need for some discussion in the main article. I will keep clipping away, though.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've just been saying pretty much the same in my concluding comments above. I wasn't conscious of excessive length till I hit the lit crit section, at which point I boggled. As I mention above, we polished Dizzy's literary legacy off in 600 words, and I don't think we short-changed him. Tim riley talk 08:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Message received loud and clear. I'll get out the axe.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I'll reserve my review until the axe has done its work. Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My review is under way, and there should be a should be a significant instalment by tomorrow. Brianboulton (talk) 21:28, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First block
Lead
  • One tiny punc point: you need to remove the comma after "Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty (1903)" to preserve your meaning
Done
Family and youth
  • I think the mention of the Smith brothers should be preceded by a brief description, e.g. "the Mormon leaders". I know there are links, but readers should be helped.
(cough, cough) done.
  • Perhaps rather than just "John attended the local schools", give an indcation of his brightness before describing him as "the precocious child"
Rephrased around it.
Student and Lincoln supporter
  • Not wild about the header (suggests a supporter of students and Lincoln) but I can't think of a better
I trust myself to the good common sense of the readers.
  • There's a little confusion in the narrative. He came to Brown under-prepared, he had frequent bouts of illness, some maybe pyschosomatic or depressive – yet he gained the reputation as a star student. Perhaps insert the words "Despite his uncertain beginning" before "He gained..."
  • "and instead he was made a clerk in Milton Hay's law firm (he had relocated to Springfield) where John could study law and become an attorney". Seems rather heavy-footed and complicated, with parenthetical insertion etc. Suggest simplify: "and instead joined Milton Hay's law firm in Springfield, where he studied to become an attorney".
Played with a bit. I do want to keep the moving to Springfield bit so as to assure continuity.
  • "recounted an early encounter" is not mellifluous – suggest "recalled..."
Done
  • The sentence beginning "Once he was..." is far too long & convoluted, and should be split.
  • "Lincoln was victorious in the election that November" is a bit indirect. Why not "Lincoln was elected president in November 1860"?
Both done.
Secretary to Lincoln
  • "($1,800 beginning in 1862)" is an unnecessary detail
  • "In that Executive Mansion" – I'd say "the" rather than "that", but is the phrase necessary at all?
  • "Hay wrote many letters for Lincoln's signature: though he did not record which ones, according to Taliaferro, Hay was the likely author of the letter to Lydia Bixby, a Bostonian who had (Lincoln was told) lost five sons in the war ". Colon should be semi; "though" in this case woould be better as "although"; the arrangement of commas means I can't work out which phrase you are qualifying with "according to Taliafeero". Also, "who had (Lincoln was told)" could be rearranged to "who Lincoln was told had", without parenthses.
  • "not correct" → "incorrect" – and another word zapped!
  • Surely lose comma after "barrooms"? There is no natural pause there.
All done. I am trying to avoid the minefield of the Bixby letter authorship and also trying to not denigrate Mrs. Bixby's very real loss in a war she did not believe in.
Presidential emissary
  • There is a punctuation issue in the second paragraph. At the very least, the comma after "Charleston Harbor" should be a full stop. The remainder of the sentence could also be split with advantage.
  • "Lincoln considered the state, with its small population..." Clarify that "the state" is Florida.
  • "...sending Hay to see if he could get sufficient men to take the oath.[42] Lincoln commissioned him a major and sent him to Florida." Needs sorting out, perhaps: "He commissioned Hay as a major, and sent him to Florida to see if he could get sufficient men to take the oath".
  • There is no month "between" February and March. Thus, "in February–March 1864"
Rephrased in all cases above.
Assassination of Lincoln
  • "wed his intended" – a bit magaziney, perhaps?
I have deleted Mrs. Nicolay entirely from the story.
Early diplomatic career
  • I would delete the "as well" in line 2
  • Clever sidestep to bring in Disraeli! I am awaiting the appearance of Meeker.
No evidence, alas. They moved in circles that were not mutually exclusive during Meeker's "Hop King" years, though. They may have met.
  • "In May, Hay went back to Washington from Warsaw to press his case' " Stray apostrophe after "case"? Perhaps add "with the nwely-installed Grant administration"?
  • Whose description is "swashbuckling"? At present it reads as editorializing
  • Mr. Taliaferro's: "one of the most renowned swashbucklers of his day". p. 121. I think it's justified. The man's actions may have been reprehensible in some ways but he had style.
Tribune and marriage
  • "though mail subscriptions" → "through mail subscriptions"
  • You say: "His work at the Tribune came as his fame as a poet was reaching its peak" – but there has been no mention of his writing poetry since the "Student" section. Some brief intervening mention is surely necessary, indicating that his poetry had been published and appreciated.
I've done an internal link to the literary career.
  • "hitherto-sterling": two words, I think
  • "On December 29, 1876, a bridge over Ohio's Ashtabula River, built from metal cast at one of Stone's mills, carrying a train of Stone's Lake Shore Railway, collapsed". I would move the verb forward – three prior sub-clauses is on too many. Suggest: "...collapsed while carrying a train..." etc
  • "who soon departed" → "who departed" (the word "soon" is unnecessarily over-used in the article). It recurs in this same paragraph)

Continuing... Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Next batch
Return to politics
  • "...in the election. Hayes's controversial victory in the election..." Awkward repetition of phrase; you could transfer link to the former and delete latter.
Tweaked.
  • "Hay was offered his place, and after some hesitancy because of a run for the House of Representatives Hay was considering, he accepted". Again some awkwardness, with "Hay" mentioned twic in the sentence. Perhaps "Hay was offered his place and accepted, after some hesitancy because he was at the time considering a run for the House of Representatives."
Much along your lines, but I just shortened it to "running for Congress".
Author and dilettante
  • "themselves" is probably a redundancy. Could you be a bit more specific than "the books", e.g. "the full biography in x volumes was published in 1890"
  • "Hay contributed funds to Harrison's unsuccessful re-election effort in 1892, with some of his enthusiasm due to the fact that Reid had been made Harrison's running mate in place of Vice President Levi P. Morton" Seems a bit wordy – could be "Hay contributed funds to Harrison's unsuccessful re-election effort in 1892, mainly because Reid had been made Harrison's running mate". I'm not sure it's necessary to mention the unfortunate Morton.
Morton flushed and more or less along the lines you suggest
McKinley backer
  • Link Speaker of the House (may have been mentioned earlier – check
Galusha Grow (I always like including him) was the first incumbent mentioned.
Appointment
  • The first paragraph becomes very convoluted, perhaps over-explained for the general reader. Few, I think, will be able to make sense of the machinations – it is not, for example, clear until the next paragraph that Hay and Reid were competitors for the London post. I strongly recommend some simplification.
I've played with it. Hanna's machination, which is important here, does need explanation.
  • Link The Times
  • "A salary of $17,000 was provided by the State Department, but it also had to cover expenses, and Hay quickly decided not to try to live on it." I'd omit this. It is fairly unlikely that a rich man like Gale would choose to live on a relative small salary and allowance. Perhaps adjust the final sentence: "Hay's salary of $17,000 "did not even begin to cover the cost of their extravagant lifestyle".
Excellent, thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "change of attitude for America's representative" – I think "by" rather than "for". It sounds from what follows tha the change he envisaged was, more or less, "no more Mr Nice Guy", although this is at odds with the atatement in the first paragraph of the next section; perhaps you could clarify?
I've cut it. There wasn't room to really follow up.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Service
  • "former secretary John W. Foster" – secretary of state? ("former secetary" makes him sound like a retired typist)
  • "pledged to silver-leaning Republicans to..." → "promised silver-leaning..." etc
  • "assure U.S.-British amity" → "ensure..."

"for which he "is best remembered by many students of American history" should be attributed.

  • "with no more experience of statecraft than that practiced in the Stark County courthouse" – I don't think we are allowed such mordant asides.
Shortened.

More... Brianboulton (talk) 15:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your efforts, I've dealt with those.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
More

I had hoped to finish tonight, but no such luck. There will be another instalment.

McKinley years
  • "he found his old office and bedroom occupied by several clerks each" → "he found his old office and bedroom each occupied by several clerks" (would sound more natural)
China
  • Unfortunately, the levels 4 and 5 heading typefaces are the same size on my display. This has the effect either of making the "China" subheading appear to have no content, or of making MacKinley's assassination seem a subdivision of the China section (I don't know whether it looks like this to everyone). One possible solution would be to lose the "China" heading, retitle "Open door policy" as "China: Open door policy" as a level 4 subheading, and maker "Boxer rebellion" a level 4 heading. That way, "McKinley years" has 3 level 4 subdivisions.
Yes, I suppose so, but there are times when Level 5 headings are not so easily dispensed with.
Open door policy
  • "With an eye to the Irish-American and German-American vote in the next election, Hay did not wish this policy to be seen as a joint Anglo-American initiative, and Rockhill drafted the first Open Door note, calling for equality of commercial opportunity for foreigners in China". I don't immediately see the connection between the two halves of this sentence
The groups spoken of had no reason to love the British. Possibly the best course is to delete the intro and leave the actions unexplained.
  • "not a treaty": so, how were the powers that agreed to it bound by it?
They weren't. It was a modus vivendi or some such.
Boxer Rebellion
  • Maybe add ("now Beijing) after "Peking"? I know the link gives this, but...
I think I can put my trust in the erudition of the reader to know this one.
  • "sacked the city" – name the city
Death of McKinley
  • "Hay responded that McKinley would die" – any reason for such pessimism, when medical opinion suggested otherwise?
I'll double-check my copy of Leech tonight or tomorrow, but I don't recall any. Precedent, I expect. He'd been through the wringer with two shot presidents. Garfield lived for three months.
  • "He remained at his office and the next morning, as Roosevelt hurried to Buffalo, the former Rough Rider received his first communication as President, from Hay, officially informing President Roosevelt of McKinley's death." The initial pronoun is confusing, as the last "he" mentioned is McKinley. Also, I imagine that Roosevely received his first communication as president on arrival in Buffalo, not as he hurried there. And "President Roosevelt" can be "him". Thus: "Hay remained at his office, and the next morning, when Roosevelt arrived Buffalo, the former Rough Rider received his first communication as President, from Hay, officially informing him of McKinley's death".
No, he got it in some railroad station, as he boarded a special train to Buffalo. I'll see if I can adjust to fit.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It probably won't suit you because of the double use of "Roosevelt", but I do want to keep "President Roosevelt" in there to emphasize the accession.
Staying on
  • No issues
Panama
  • "But the Canadians, seeing this as their greatest leverage to get other disputes resolved in their favor, persuaded Salisbury not to resolve the canal matter independently". It is unclear to the reader how "the Canadians" and "Salisbury" (presumably the Briish PM) had a role in this issue – presumably this lack of clarity arises from the removal of explanatory material (at the behest of such as I). The same excisions may explain the reference in the next sentence to "these matters", when only one matter – US exclusive control – has been raised.
I've made it clearer. Lord Salisbury is named and linked in the ambassadorial section.
  • The matter of the Canada-Alaska boundary is raised in a vacuum at the end of the paragraph. I am wondering about the wisdom of covering the Canadian boundary issue in a section headed "Panama"
The two issues were linked, at least for a time, much to Hay's distress because he saw no connection either. I think that given this link, that it should stand.
  • "negotiated with Hay the Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty" better as "negotiated the Hay–Bunau-Varilla Treaty"
  • We are somewhat short of date information in the final paragraph – nothing after the November 1903 revolt. It would be useful to know when the traety was signed, and when work began.

I hope one more session will finish it. Brianboulton (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your continued work. I've made those changes except where commented to the contrary.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Last words

(subject to any final comments on your responses)

  • "President and secretary" – inconsistent capitalisation in President
  • "For his part" – unnecessary verbiage
  • "Another incident where Hay and Roosevelt differed was in the composition of..." → "Hay and Roosevelt also differed over the composition of..."
  • I dislike being required to use links to identify people – spoils the narrative flow. Thus "the Greek-American playboy Ion Perdicaris" would help.
  • "Roosevelt considered seizing the Tangier waterfront, source of much of his income..." reads as though Roosevelt's income came from the Tangier waterfront. Need to clarify "his".
Final months and death
  • "Early 1905 saw futility for Hay, as a number of treaties he had negotiated were defeated or amended by the Senate—one involving the British dominion of Newfoundland due to Senator Lodge's fears it would harm his fisherman constituents, and others promoting arbitration because the Senate did not want to be bypassed in the settlement of international disputes". The last part of this long sentence reads ambiguously. I would split after "constituents" and then: "Others, which promoted arbitration, were lost because the Senate..." etc
Literary career
  • "penned" twice in first line
  • Link Bret Harte
  • "(published editions did not bear Hay's name until 1916, after his death)" – last three words redundant
  • "Historian Frederic Cople Jaher concluded that Hay's anger in 1877, when Stone's railroad was peacefully struck, and his 1883 novel, "emphasize defensive notions of safe-guarding order and property rather than the expansive beliefs in extending individual freedom or opportunity"." Hard to follow, and I'm not convinced that this point needs re-emphasizing. Hay's feelings, based on the strikes at the Stone businesses, are made clear in the first paragraph.
  • "submitted to Robert Lincoln[220] for approval.[221]" Small point, but does it really require two references to make this point?
  • "an alternation of parts in which Lincoln is at center, and discussions of contextual matters such as legislative events or battles" – unclear. though I think I can work out what it means. Try "...alternates parts in which Lincoln is at center with discussions of contextual matters, such as legislative events or battles".
Assessment and legacy
  • "relatively early death" – hmm, maybe not for that time. Among his near contemporaries, Blaine was 62, Hanna 66, Harrison 67 and Cleveland 71, so Hay is in the general range. Roosevelt, who was somewhat younger, barely made 60.
Well ... "premature" death. He certainly died of disease, not of old age (as did Hanna, actually).
  • "then stated that his own education had now ended, lapsing into "Hamlet's Shakespearean silence" Surely ultra vires?
I just read the final pages. I will tweak the prose, but I think it's fairly powerful for Adams to imply that Hay's death had ended his own education. (Adams lived to be 80, by the way)
  • Earlier you say "Hay and Nicolay enjoyed exclusive access to Lincoln's papers, which were not opened to other researchers until 1947." Now you say "later biographers such as Carl Sandburg, using the full volume of Lincoln papers available..." I believe that Sandburg's Lincoln biographies were written well before 1947, so is there a contradiction here?\
You are quite right. Zeitz is a little muddled here. I've sliced the clause. Good catch.::
  • "including the Canal-related treaties": "including those related to the Canal" would avoid repetition of "treaties"
  • I am confused as to whether Taliaferro's valediction is intend as praise or criticsm. It seems a little enigmatic for a parting note.
I will replace it.

And that really is it (apart from sourcing and similar issues which I'll no doubt get into at FAC) Brianboulton (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, will try to work on this today. I appreciate the thorough review.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for a most thorough and searching review. I think I've caught everything. I will leave the peer review open for the remainder of the wikiday and plan on nomming for FAC tonight.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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