Wikipedia:Peer review/Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver/archive2

Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver

Previous peer review

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for April 2008.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because it has already had a peer review before. Since then it has made tremendous jumps in terms of quality, and is now well-sourced, well-written and well-structured. I personally think it is ready for a Good Article nomination, but before I go so far I'd like any more advice on improving its quality even further.

With the exception of a user who added in the mythology section today, I'm largely the only editor working on the page, so if there's also anyone else who wants to work on the page to fix things like grammar, tone, prose, etc, please help because I'm not so well-versed in those areas.

Thanks, The Clawed One (talk) 01:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: Interesting article, here are some suggestions for improvement.

• In the lead, despite it being mentioned before it took me a bit to figure out what Blood Omen was in In the events of Blood Omen, the Vampire Lord Kain... so provide a bit more context, perhaps something like In the events of Blood Omen, the previous game, the Vampire Lord Kain... See WP:PCR
• Since the title contains Soul Reaver, I would explain that briefly in the lead too
• In Gameplay, I assume the player assumes the role of Raziel and think this should be made clear in the first sentence or two.
• Long complicated sentence - simplify and/or break into 2 or more sentences. Other puzzles are based on the differences between the spectral and material realms, such as various platforms and environment features shifting form to open new paths, as well as time-based switches — time does not pass in the spectral realm and certain time-based challenges require shifting.[2]
• Combo strikes me as jargon - explain briefly - and watch for other terms. See WP:JARGON
• Watch repetition - explanation of Soul Reaver abilities in Gameplay and Abilities sections is repetitive, only need to say this once
• Gameplay section says Enemies are limited to humans and Vampires but Enemies section starts with Raziel's enemies are grouped into humans, Vampires and spectral creatures.. Which is correct?
• Enemies section has zero references
• I think "besieging" is meant in ...narration of the Vampire lord Kain sieging Nosgoth...
• Unclear sentence - what is "it" here - the lake? However, Raziel is plucked from the lake by The Elder God, who tells Raziel it is the hub of the Wheel of Fate, a cycle of birth, death and rebirth.
• The article still has some awkward sentences (I have pointed out some) and needs a copyedit - try reading it out loud. Another example is GameSpot praised the camera controls for their next-to-none difficulty,..
• Some of the references seem like they might not be reliable sources - see WP:RS Is thelostworlds.net reliable for example?

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

- Well it mentions in the first paragraph of the intro that Blood Omen is the previous game. - I'll make note of that, but TBH the Soul Reaver is pretty insignificant in this game, it's the sequels where its relevance is hyped. Raziel is repeatedly referred to as "reaver of souls" in the game, so which the game is named for can't be totally proven. I'll make a note of both.

Thanks for your help, and I'll make these changes soon. I'm not sure about thelostworlds.net, hopefully they're reliable. The Clawed One (talk) 03:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments from User:Guyinblack25

I must it was kinda cool see this article improved; I had some fond, and frustrating memories playing this game. I hope this will help get this to GA.

The lead

• I would list the date the game was first released.
• In the lead it says "Soul Reaver was released on the PlayStation, Dreamcast and PC in 1999", but in the infobox it says it was released on the Dreamcast in 2000.
• All instances of "Vampire" in the article should be lowercase.
• The lead goes into a level detail too depth for a introductory segment. Some of the information is better suited for a "Setting" section to give the backstory. I would try this:
  "In the events of Blood Omen, the Vampire Lord Kain refuses to sacrifice himself to restore the land of Nosgoth, dooming it to an eternity of decay as Kain builds an empire upon its ruins. Soul Reaver takes place 1500 years after the events of Blood Omen, and chronicles the journey of Kain's lieutenant Raziel as he is killed by Kain and returns from the dead to exact his revenge upon his Vampire brethren, becoming. He returns from the dead as a "soul reaver" for The Elder God, also acquiring the sword "Soul Reaver" during his quest.."
• I would also briefly mention the type of gameplay. Like third person, action-adventure with puzzles.

Gameplay

• This section references some plot info too much. This is unwise because the reader hasn't been introduced to the story yet. I'd try to be more descriptive, but from a the perspective of never having played the game.
• Minor grammar edit: comma and space.
  "In Soul Reaver, players take control of Raziel."
• I would follow the above sentence with basic information about the gameplay. Like third person, action-adventure with puzzles.
• Grammar tweaks:
  "There exist numerous blockThe game features numerous puzzles in the game,. Most requiringe the rotationng, and flipping, and pushing of large blocks and pushing them into place to progress,; often while avoiding other obstacles like enemies."
• I would move the above sentence before the content about shifting between realms.
• Then follow the realm shifting with:
  "Soul Reaver uses the shifting between realms to as part of platform puzzles."
• Minor tweaks:
  "OtherSuch puzzles are based on the differences between the spectral and material realms, such as various; for example, certain platforms and other elements of the environment featuresalter when shifting between realms and form to open new paths."
• Not really needed, the article is fine without it.
  "As well, time does not pass in the spectral realm and certain time-based challenges require shifting."
• The image in the "Abilities" section isn't the best angle to show what is described in the caption. It's not bad, but I think a better picture might be out there.

Enemies

• This section should be renamed to "Characters" and moved to become a sub-section of "Plot" along with a "Setting" and the "Story" sections. I would then expand it to introduce the main characters.
• Consolidating things as "Plot" with "Setting", "Characters", and "Story" subsections will make the information more segmented, organized, and easier to comprehend.

Story

• There is some excessive detail in here that would probably be a better fit in a "Setting" and "Characters" section. For example, some of the first paragraph would probably better serve the reader in a "Setting" section.
• Clarify the "it" in the sentence:
  "However, Raziel is saved by The Elder God, who tells Raziel it is the hub of the Wheel of Fate, a cycle of birth, death and rebirth."
• Minor tweaks:
  "...since his death: the land is in ruins, the Sanctuary of the Clans where the lieutenants met decrepit, and the Vvampires have been reduced to vaguely humanevolved into deformed monsters."

I hope this helps get things going. I'll finish reading the article later. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC))

I'm sorry, I've been busy lately and have not finished reading the article. I did, however, give it a quick glance and have some more comments.

• The "Characters" sections could use some citations.
• This part is a real shame. TheLostWorlds.net looks to be a fan site. And while it is very professionally done, and provides a wealth of information, it is still only a personal website owned, operated, and maintained by a single person who is not considered an authority on the subject. Because of this, it can not be considered a reliable source according to Wikipedia's definition. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources for more info. Likewise with Too Human Domain.
• Of the content on TheLostRealms, the Visit to Crystal Dynamics, Q&A with Jen, Richard, and Kyle, and Q&A with Amy Hennig are probably suitable for a GAN because the information comes from the developers. FAC may be more stringent and not accept them though. But something like Character Names is technically the original research of website's owner and thus not suitable for use on Wikipedia.
• Because of the above reasons, the "References to Abrahamic religious mythology" section will unfortunately have to go. While the content in it obviously makes sense to someone who has played the game and has some basic knowledge of religion, on Wikipedia, it technically amounts to synthesized original research because of the sources used. I can explain this further if need be.
• I would see if there are any magazine articles in the VG Magazine Archive. This is because most gaming websites had not yet established themselves as reliable sources in their first couple of years. That's one of the downsides to working on older games, most internet sources from that era had little to no editorial oversite. Having printed sources in that section would be help. Though nothing might be said at its GAN, I can assure you that something would be said at FAC.

I know some of these comments will make going for GA more difficult, but better to deal with them now and ensure a successful GA later than have the GAN put on hold and try to solve these within a week. I hope this helps some. I'll try to give a more through reading later this week. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 14:12, 4 May 2008 (UTC))

Further comments: Here's the last of the comments.

• In the "Setting" and "Characters" sections, I would tweaking the wording some. This may sound a bit off, but try making these two sections a bit more dry. Right now they read more like small plot summaries instead of information background sections. They should give just enough information to easily understand the "Story" section.
• "Story" section
  • Minor tweaks:
    "However, Raziel is resurrected as a wraith by The Elder God, who informs that he has revived Raziel as a wraith to become his "soul reaver", and return to Nosgoth and take his vengeance by killing Kain, in doing so; restoring the landNosgoth in the process."
  • Comma missing:
    "With the tutelage of the Elder God, Raziel adapts to his..."
  • Trim down to be more concise:
    "At the bottom ofIn the Necropolis, he finds his brother Melchiah, who has devolved to the point where he is now a large, bestial being who cannot sustain his own flesh and thus skins others to keep himself together."
  • Trim and combine sentences. The new ability doesn't explain how Raziel invades the Sanctuary. Since it is best to avoid such details, best to trim that part down.
    "Raziel kills Melchiah and absorbs his soul, inheriting part of his power. Using his new abilities, and thenRaziel invades the Sanctuary of the Clans and. There he finds and confronts Kain at his abandoned throne. Kain draws the Soul Reaver, a powerful blade that absorbs the souls of its victims, and aAfter a short battle, Kain uses the Reaver to attemptSoul Reaver, a powerful blade that absorbs the souls of its victims, to kill Raziel. However, the Reaver shatters, and Raziel slips into the spectral realm to find the blade's spectral selfform there."
  • Minor tweaks:
    "After climbing and flying intoascending the cathedral's spires, he finds Zephon is now a large arachnid, and the cathedral spire he dwells in a part of his very body."
  • I don't know if I'd call them Rahabim vampires "mermaid-like", but I honestly don't know what else to call them. Maybe just amphibious creatures.
  • Trim and tweak:
    "Raziel confronts his brother Rahab with what he has learned, but Rahab is unmoved and tells him Kain has already visited him and told him Raziel would kill himbattles him. Raziel does sodefeats him and gains the powerability to swim."
  • More tweaking:
    "Raziel frees Dumah and restores him, and Dumah thanks him for this, but Raziel reminds Dumah he was one of the two who threw him into the Lake of the Dead and he desires to life to take his revenge."
  • Minor trimming:
    "Using Dumah's power, Afterwards, Raziel entersdiscovers a series of caves known as the Oracle Caves, once used..."
  • More trimming:
    Despite Raziel's rage regarding what he had seen and learned, Kain shrugs off his accusations and responds with cryptic comments regarding destiny and the supposed illusion of free will. Raziel attacks Kain while he continues to adjust the Chronoplast's controls unfazed. A portal through time opens, and Kain escapes into ita time portal with Raziel in pursuit. Raziel attempts to follow him and is warned by the Elder God that while previously it revived Raziel whenever he died, if he enters the portal their bond will break. Raziel continues into the portal and is met with Moebius himself, whom Kain killed centuries ago, who welcomes Raziel "to his destiny".The story continues in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2."
• As stated before, I'd remove the "References to Abrahamic religious mythology" section.
• "Development" section:
  • The citation for ref 25 doesn't need to be split if there are no other references between them. A single citation will suffice.
  • Minor tweak:
    "Prior to its release the relationship between between Silicon Knights and Crystal Dynamics dissolved, and the rights for the Legacy of Kain series were subject to a legal battle between them two due to the original concept for Soul Reaver being derived from Shifter, and the game was plagued by several delays."
  • The first sentences in the second paragraph read like synthesized information and could be interpreted as original research. I'd trim down on the unused data included on the disc.
  • Trimming:
    "Series director Amy Hennig has stated in an interview that Soul Reaver was intended..."
  • More trimming:
    "Hennig has explained that these deleted materials were left in the..."
• "Reception" section:
  • I would rearrange the content a bit. I would move the content about the setting, audio, and whatnot to the end. This way the reception starts with the gameplay. I would also try to add a few introductory statements to start the section. Help give the reader a frame of reference. "Soul Reaver" was well received."
  • Trim redundant use of the word "that": "IGN echoed this, citing that learning the powers", "...akin to Banjo-Kazooie, and said that reviewers would...", "RPGGamer said that the game's controls...", "...both GameSpot and IGN claiming that without clear objectives...", and "GameSpot said that while impaling Vampires..."

I hope this helps some. The biggest things are the content on TheLostRealms, removing the "References to Abrahamic religious mythology" section, and checking out the VG Magazine Archive. Those are the main obstacles to GA. But I certainly think reaching GA is doable and I hope a classic game like this makes it. Good luck. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 22:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC))

Thanks for the input. I'm confused about the mythology section personally. On the one hand, there's a lot of relevant references to the game and it is an interesting and well-written section. On the other hand, it's not entirely relevant. The Clawed One (talk) 23:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

True, it is an interesting read. An academic analysis of a work can be included in an article, however, this section isn't sourced with any analysis. The sucky part is it is interesting and fairly well-written, but Wikipedia's policies and guidelines don't really allow content that isn't properly sourced. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 01:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC))