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Wikipedia:Peer review/Mahendra Singh Dhoni/archive1

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Mahendra Singh Dhoni

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I made cleanups to the article and added content across all sections. removed POV material in records and ODI career section. A 'debatable' issue is the seperation of ODI and Test career. If there is a overwhelming opposition to it, i shall merge the two into a chronological order. Kalyan 07:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • The controversies is redundant kind of, because the incident with Lara isn't that big of a deal and is talking about Lara more than it is about Dhoni and his house being vandalized is kind of big but could be included in the world cup paragraph. Both can be added higher above in the respective paragraphs but doesn't really need to detailed much. Also the headings including WC should be changes to World Cup or at least the CWC.--THUGCHILDz 08:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I added the section to be a place holder for not only current but future content as well. I have no issues in merging them to the previous sections but would for other's views as well before i do it. Thanks. Kalyan 09:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit comments by Tintin

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Review of this version (checked only for factual errors, not language)

  • Based on his performance at club cricket, he was picked for Vinoo Mankad Trophy Under-16 Championship
From the section on Junior Cricket, one gets the impression that this is a U-19 competition
Response: I did not understand your comments. Please clarify.
In the Junior section, VM trophy appears in the context of U-19 tournaments, and MSD was too old for U-16 cricket by that time (1998/9). This contradicts with personal life which clearly says that it was U-16 Tintin 09:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dhoni debuted in the domestic cricket on the Bihar U-19 squad for the 1998/99 season
Why is this called domestic debut, while the previous section on personal life talks about him playing in domestic, age-level (apparently U-16) cricket. Which came first ?
Response: Modified the sentence. Kalyan 09:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rest of India squad (MA Chidambaram Trophy and Vinoo Mankad Trophy). irreplaceable human being.
Very little context. Does Rest of India play in both ?
Yes. There were 2 tournaments - MAC & VM in which RoW played. A secondary reason for including it is the fact that there is little awareness amongst cricket fans on these junior (U-16; U-19 trophies). in the long term, i wanted to add these articles and provide a link here. If you think that this needs to be removed, shall do so. Kalyan 09:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dhoni's performance for the 2002/03 season in Ranji Trophy ...
Should not be there in the junior cricket section]
Response: Error. Moved it to the relevant section. Kalyan 09:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dhoni's performance in the 2000/01[9] and 2001/02[10] seasons were lacklustre scoring just one fifty in each season in four Ranji matches.
Not accurate. His average in 2000-1 was higher than in 1999/00. He also scored a 114* (not just 50s) in 2000/1.
Response: In 1999/00 he had an average of 70+, in 2000/01 it was 60+. So your first statement is not factually correct. However i concede on the second point, i missed the century and i think that is his first first-class century and hence the two sentences were modified.Kalyan 09:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In 1999/00, his Ranji average was 31.44 and it was 39 in the next year link. But my error anyway, as I read it to mean that it said that 2000/1 was a worse year when compared to 1999/00, but the article does not imply anything of that sort. Tintin
Oh my my... i confused SR and Ave for the 2 seasons. my apologies. i should probably take a small break. BTW, in the last modification, the sentence was corrected to remove reference to "lacklustre" for 2000/01 season
  • In the 2003/04 season, MS Dhoni opened for the Bihar team in the Ranji ODI trophy and scored a century (128*) against Assam in the first match.
He had already opened in three Ranji ODIs that season before this game.
Response: removed reference to opener. Kalyan 09:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • the selectors picked Dhoni over International cricketer Deep Dasgupta[11] and scored a fighting half century in the second innings in a losing cause.
Rephrase. Sounds as if selectors scored a fighting half century
Response: Done. Kalyan 09:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dhoni had a great start to the Trination tournament
Not sure whether "great start" is right because in his first match in the tournament he scored 8 v Kenya
Response: removed reference to great start. Kalyan 09:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Will continue later Tintin 08:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Others

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It's a good article. I'll kick off by saying that the Lead section does not conform with WP:LEAD. --Dweller 09:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please let me know the specifics of what more info you need me to add. i wanted to keep it concise. i am getting the feeling that it has become way too concise. Ideas are welcome. Kalyan 10:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at recent cricket bio FAs: Adam Gilchrist, Harbhajan Singh, Paul Collingwood --Dweller 12:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Can you please review the revised and ahem., ahem .. much improved lead paras. I know it might be bit too long but "better long than short" was my principle to address the above comment. Kalyan 12:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am very skeptical of the fair use claim on Image:Lara asks Dhoni to walk.jpg because it doesn't seem that the photo is at all necessary to understand the incident. I think the image should be listed for deletion. Stephen Turner (Talk) 10:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weak agree to your point but the main reason why i added the image was that there was no other way i could lay my hands on a snap. also, i think it does illustrate the incident in question as we see Lara talking to Dhoni. but if we build a little consensus, i will remove the image. The trouble is to lay our hands on a few non-copyright images of Dhoni. Kalyan 10:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's hard to get photos, but that doesn't excuse dubious fair use claims, I'm afraid. Stephen Turner (Talk) 11:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can defend that the pic represents fair use criteria but i think the whole effort in that is not justified. removed the pic. Kalyan 12:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be at Adelaide Oval when India come this year. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedit comments by AllynJ

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Warning: Wall of text incoming

Lead:

  • "Dhoni refered as 'Mahi' by his friends," - Needs rephrasing, maybe just a comma in there (and the typo fixed).
Response: Added Comma. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in many ways, identical to his ODI maiden century." - This sounds odd grammatically. Identical indicates there are no differences, which contradicts "in many ways", which suggests in most but not all.
Response: I wanted to imply the coincidences between the maiden ODI century and test century (Pakistan, 5th match, 148) but i guess the statement did not send the same message. Removed the phrase. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life section:

  • "Dhoni is a fan of Adam Gilchrist and his childhood idols" - 'idols' is currently italicised - why?
Response: I have no idea why it was italicized. removed it. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dhoni is a avid biker" - an, not a.
Oops. There is the first of many grammatical errors. My english teacher from school would be real unhappy. No Ma'am., you can't score me on this ... Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dhoni's focused on cricket after his 10th standard." - what's a 'standard'? It sounds like a school year, but I'm unfamiliar with the context; needs a wikilink I think.
Response: OK, i added a wikilink. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "MS Dhoni was voted as MTV Youth Icon 2006" - consistency, it just says "Dhoni" elsewhere in the article, should here too (although that would result in all 3 paragraphs in this section starting with Dhoni, perhaps change to "he").
Response: Removed MS, also made changes to the first para to ensure there are no three "Dhoni"s starting the paras. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Domestic career section:

  • "and scored 176 runs in 5 matches (7 innings) and the team finished fourth" - as the team finished fourth it should be, I think?
Response: Yes. Changed. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and did not make it to the quarterfinals." - Quarter finals should be seperated.
Response: Changed. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Team effort in both bowling and batting helped the Bihar U-19" - sentence starts awkwardly, doesn't read too well.
Response: Changed the couple of sentences. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and in 2001/02 season[14] he scored just one fifty in each season in four Ranji matches." - Citation oddly placed here.
Response: moved. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are further uses of "MS Dhoni" as opposed to just "Dhoni" in this paragraph, too. Reads oddly to me.
Response: Changed. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the Duleep Trophy finals, the selectors picked Dhoni over International cricketer Deep Dasgupta[15]" - selectors for what? The national team?
Response: changed. Kalyan 14:19, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In Trination tournament involving Kenya, India 'A' and Pakistan 'A'," - Should be 'In a tri-nation', I think. Definitely needs the 'a', not sure on how tri-nation should be spelt but I would naturally think with a hyphen.
Response: Corrected, added "the"; added hyphen. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "These knocks bought attention to Dhoni's performance from even the then Indian national cricket captain - Sourav Ganguly.[22]" - This sentence could do with re-wording - 'from even the then' reads badly. It should be "brought" and not "bought", too.
Response: changed. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ODI career section:

  • "Indian team in the 2000s saw the use of Rahul Dravid as the wicketkeeper" - Needs to start with The, I'd suggest.
Response: changed. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "getting Run out for a duck on debut.[25]" - run out shouldn't be capitalised.
Response: changed. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The score coming off only 123 deliveries was the then highest score by an Indian wicketkeeper as well as the then third highest score by a wicketkeeper in ODI cricket.[27]" - multiple uses of 'the then' which, again, reads badly.
The issue i had was that the record has since then been broken. i reworded a couple of sentences around this statement and not used the word "the then" at all. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dhoni had few chances in the first two games of the Sri Lankan tour of India (Oct-Dec 2005)." - few chances at what?
Response: reworded as batting opportunities. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in the second innings[30]," - inline citations after punctuation, per

WP:CITE.

Response: changed. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In December 2005, Dhoni was rewarded a BCCI contract," - should be 'with a BCCI contract'
Response: re-worded the sentence. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "when he aided India score 328 in their 50 overs" - needs rephrasing, perhaps to "when he aided India to their score of 328"? Not sure, even that doesn't sound too good to me.
Response: re-worded the sentence. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "India did not qualify for the finals and their underpreparation showed" - these two sentences could be split, I think. Right now they merge two competitions then another sentence is started to discuss the latter of the two. "Underpreparation" isn't a word - lack of preparation would be the correct term. Perhaps change it to: "India did not qualify for the finals. Their lack of preparation showed when they hosted the 2006 ICC Champions Trophy, when Dhoni's 51 against West Indies...", etc. The rest of that sentence could do with rephrasing too, to be honest.
Response: Thanks for being honest. I re-edited a couple of sentences there. i am not sure of the current version but it seems improvement over the earlier version. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However India unexpectedly crashed out the World cup after losses to Bangladesh and Sri Lanka." - World Cup is a proper noun, both words should be capitalised. This occurs again in the first sentence of the "Post 2007 WC" heading.
  • "Dhoni was declared the man-of-match for his performance," - man of the match, shouldn't use hyphens.
Response: Done. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Test career section:

  • "(first three and half days were washed off)" - needs a 'with' at the beginning.
Response: removed the phrase as it was info-overload. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "India was left in a tight spot as Dhoni" - were, not was.
Response: corrected. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However Dhoni and Indian fielding dropped too many catches" - replace with something like 'However Dhoni and the Indian fielders dropped ...'
  • "as England set an imposing 313 run target for the home team, a target that India was never in the reckoning as the batting order collapse skidded the team to 100 all-out and Dhoni scored just five." - few things with this. 313 isn't a particularly imposing score to chase down under normal circumstances, why was it here? Because it was the final day? (Note: It can't be imposing because of India's batting collapse, as that happened after the score was posted, can't really be explained by that as it seems to be now.) 'India were', not was. Perhaps rephrase to 'as the batting order collapsed to', reads rather oddly as it is right now. 'as Dhoni scored just 5.' - consistency, per WP:DATE.
Response: re-wrote the last couple of sentences. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the series against the host West Indies," - perhaps rephrase to "On a tour of the West Indies"? Not sure, as it stands now it isn't grammatically correct.
response: corrected. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to aid India in setting a target for the West Indies." - This seems silly, whatever he scores he's going to have aided India in setting a target for the West Indies... specify what kind of target, preferably with the exact score.
Response: removed the phrase but am not too happy to see it go. i wanted to set the context of the 69 in the match was that it provided acceleration in india's second innings. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it needed to be removed, personally, just reworded. As I said, whatever he scored it would aid India - why specifically did it aid it? You've said here that it provided acceleration - add that! That would be fine. :) AllynJ 22:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as India squandered their historic first test victory on their way" - lacks context. Why was it historic? Is the fact it was historic even that relevant to this article? I'm not sure.
Response: ALAS! you will never understand how it is for an indian fan. ok., being serious - the match was historic because it was India's first test match victory in South Africa. India's batting issues in the second test robbed the chance of even walking away at 1-1. No changes made. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe. I appreciate that it was historic but I still feel it lacks context as to why it was historic, as it stands - perhaps consider changing it to "as India squandered their historic first Test victory, their first Test victory against South Africa, on their way". What I wrote isn't particularly well worded, admittedly (the repition of first Test in two different senses is confusing), but I can't think of a better way to put it right now. Also note that 'Test' should be capitalised, which currently it isn't. AllynJ 22:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lara was not called by the match referee for explanation of his actions but was not fined by the match referee." - why the use of the word 'but'? Sounds like both events are on the same side of the argument, whereas but would suggest they aren't. "... of his actions, nor was he fined" would be grammatically correct if I'm reading this correctly.
Response: Lara was called. removed 'not'. not makes sense. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Achievements section:

  • "The record was broken by Herschelle Gibbs during his knock of 175 when he scored 126 runs (21x4; 7x6) in boundaries." - is this much detail relevant? I'm undecided. Should be clarified as to whom it was against if you feel it is, else just shortened to "The record was later broken by Herschelle Gibbs against Team X".
Response: I am not sure it is too detailed. the record was for boundaries and hence the data on no. of runs in boundaries, no. of 4s and no. of 6s. I have added the detail on the opposition but the same knock is referred to, a few sentences earlier. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other things to note:

  • Reference 1 is currently broken, not sure what's going on there.
Response: corrected link format. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Personally, I don't like some of the title headings. I don't have any WP guidelines to back me up, I don't think, but "Early career (2004 - 2007 WC)" seems a bit unnessecary, I would just put "Early career". "Post 2007 WC" also seems oddly written right now.
Response: removed sub-sections under ODI career section. this is only one section now.
  • Title "Junior Cricket" should be "Junior cricket", per WP:HEAD. Cricket isn't a proper noun.
Response: corrected. Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know this is quite a lot but if you want to get this to featured, which I think you definitely can do, they do need to be fixed. There's a _lot_ of good detail in here which I love to see, just the presentation needs be tidied up first. Thanks. PS, if you need any clarification on my points let me know, bit tired at the moment so may have been rambling a bit in my explanations. AllynJ 22:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Response: Done making edits. Waiting for the next wave of comments :) Kalyan 15:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Follow up
Lead:

  • "Dhoni, refered as 'Mahi' by his friends," - typo/grammar - 'referred to as'.
  • "Dhoni made multiple centuries against the Pakistan-A team in a trination" - change to tri-nation:"he made his maiden test century in his fifth Test match, whenn he scored 148" - typo, when has an extra n.
  • "Post 2007 CWC," - Post sounds odd in this sentence. I would also avoid using CWC as a contraction, perhaps change to "After the World Cup".

Domestic Career:

  • "(9 matches, 12 innings), four fifties, ..." - I see what you were trying to do here with trying to avoid confusion with the 'four fifties', but WP:DATE says consistency with numbers, which in this sense would mean changing it to "4 fifties" (the fifties aren't a in stating the list of numbers so needn't be turned in to numerals).
  • "MS Dhoni made it" - another MS Dhoni as opposed to "he" or just "Dhoni".
  • "Apart from the century his performance in the 2000/01[13] did not include another score over fifty" - citation oddly placed here, I'd recommend moving it to after the 'fifty'.
  • "received attention in India including the then captain - Sourav Ganguly" - I still think this is worded oddly (I brought it up on my first review of the article) - but my point before and now was less to do with the structure as a whole and more about the use of 'the then'. I'd recommend changing to "including Sourav Ganguly, the captain of the national team at the time" or something (not necessarily that exactly, I'm not sure how to word it without it sounding slightly odd...).

ODI Career:

  • "wicket-keeper spot doesn't lack in batting talent." - needs to be past tense, should be 'didn't lack'.
  • "In the second match on the series," - of the series, not on the series.
  • "Sawai Mansingh Stadium(Jaipur)." - needs a space between Stadium and the bracket as it stands; however the general style is to say "Sawai Mansingh Stadium, Jaipur": this is also how it's written further down in the article in the Achievements section, I'd recommend changing it.
  • "Sri Lanka had set India a target of 299 on the back of a Kumar Sangakkara century and India lost Tendulkar early. and Dhoni was promoted to accelerate the scoring but ended the game with an unbeaten 183 off 145 balls," - grammar here. I would suggest "and in reply, India lost Tendulkar early. Dhoni was promoted to accelerate the scoring and ended the game ..." - 'and India lost Tendulkar early' seems a bit out of context here as it doesn't specify the Indian innings has started; the 'and' at the start of the second sentence is out of place, minor oversight; a 'but' needs changing to an 'and' as I assume he did accelerate the scoring by getting 183 off 145. :)
  • "skiping the initial C-grade level" - typo, skipping.
  • "India scored 328 in 50 overs with Dhoni contributing 68 in their first match of 2006." - should clarify who India were playing in this sentence; it's clarified in the next but seems out of place (make sure to remove it from the second sentence too, duplicating the name of the opponents would be odd).
  • "In recognition of his consistent ODI performance," - I'm not sure about the grammar of this, I'd like someone else to clarify as to whether this should be 'performances' or 'performance (as it stands). Naturally I would think the former but I'm not 100% certain.
  • "Sri Lanka washed due to rain[40]" - needs a comma before the citation (for grammar, based on the rest of the sentence).
  • "India's underpreparation showed in the 2006 ICC Champions Trophy" - still needs to be changed to "lack of preparation", otherwise the changes from before are great.
  • "after India was left in a tight spot earlier in the run-chase." - were, not was.

Rest of the article looks great to me now, great work.

I replied to a few of your responses further up, be sure not to miss them too. I think that's me done after these follow-up comments, and will be happy to support once it heads to FAC I'd say. :) AllynJ 22:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All comments addressed. Kalyan 15:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thought from Ollie

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  • I think the sub-bullets (if you follow my meaning) in the records section would be better formatted as prose - i.e. as one large paragraph
Hi., with respect to the second "record" - i have followed your advise. however for the first record (183) - there are so many that, in my view, it does not make sense to combine them all. However, if others can pitch in and voice their opinion, i shall follow the same. Kalyan 18:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the tables would be better off in the "standard" colours (class="wikitable"). I can't be certain, but I think they would gain a better reception at FAC.
Done (though i dread to think of the effort to clean up tables in Tendulkar page. FYI, i used the formats used in Adam Gilchrist wikipageKalyan 18:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just thoughts / suggestions - no need to act if you don't agree. →Ollie (talk • contribs) 12:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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