Wikipedia:Peer review/Michael Hordern/archive1

Michael Hordern

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For nearly 60 years, Sir Michael Hordern appeared in Shakespearean roles, both on stage and television. He was as frequent on the Shakesperean stage as his more famous contemporaries, Olivier, Richardson, and Gielgud. Perhaps his best known portrayal was as King Lear in the play of the same name. When approaching Gielgud for advice on how best to play the character, he was told: "All I can tell you is, get a light Cordelia." Hordern was, as one critic put it, "one of the great eccentrics of his profession, perched perilously somewhere half way between Alistair Sim and Alec Guinness."

The main point of this peer review is to discuss what else should be mentioned in terms of his credits without straying too much into bloat territory. I'd be most grateful for any comments on how best to further improve this article which I will adopt in order to send this terrific actor to the main stage at FAC in the coming weeks. Cassianto^Talk 00:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Comments from Chris Woodrich

• Compare bit part player and bit-part actor: which is correct?

The latter, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 09:38, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• "A Acting Association" - worth noting in hidden text that this is not supposed to be "An Acting Association"?

Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• There, Hordern developed a love for fishing, a hobby which he remained passionate about for the rest of his life. - Edward or Michael? Cassianto^Talk 09:35, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm sure it's me, but I don't see the confusion here. Hordern (Michael) is the only name in this sentence and "Edward", who was in the previous sentence, has been called as such when talking of Hordern's father. To say: "There, Hordern developed a love for fishing, a hobby which Michael remained passionate about for the rest of his life" would, I think, be unnessersary. Cassianto^Talk 09:35, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• Might be a nit-pick, but Edward's last name was presumably Hordern as well. As such, having just the family name can be a bit ambiguous. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• Ok, done. Cassianto^Talk 10:42, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• in which he played "Raleigh", - why the quotes?

Ha, I don't actually know, deleted. Cassianto^Talk 09:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• his desk-making job in Sussex - In the previous paragraph he quite his job as a teaching assistant in Sussex to become a "traveling salesman for the British Educational Suppliers Association". Where did desk-making come into things?

He kind of done both; fixed up tables then went and sold them. I've simplified this by just sticking to sales. Cassianto^Talk 09:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• "the actor recognised to be a turning point in his and the career and the start of his professional acting career. " - Garbled

It was indeed. I have rearranged this to: "It was a time that the actor recognised to be both a turning point and a start in his professional acting career. Cassianto^Talk 09:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• During the summer of 1937 - per WP:SEASON, might be worth using a different wording — Chris Woodrich (talk) 04:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

"During the middle months of 1937"? Cassianto^Talk 09:35, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• Something like that. Or "In mid-1937". — Chris Woodrich (talk) 16:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much for these comments! Cassianto^Talk 09:57, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• Worth redlinking any of his films that don't have articles? (i.e. The Girl in the News)
  • There seems to be an article on this already. Cassianto^Talk 12:46, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• All deference to the good doctor, but I'm worried that the lead may be bloated with so many roles mentioned. Yes, he was very active, but we've got something like 10 film and radio roles in the lead

I do agree. Dr. Blofeld, are there any that we could lose from here do you think? Cassianto^Talk 09:37, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I've removed Spy from Cold, the others are fine IMO. For some reason I only count six feature films.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:28, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Films, but all roles... north of ten still. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• first television role, Noah, in a play of the same name. - Perhaps be more explicit if this was an adaptation of the play of the same name, or a televised performance of the play

Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• the murdered victim or the murder victim?

Seems to have been done. Cassianto^Talk 09:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• thought the play suffered because of "the cast [who] in general did not appear to believe in it all ..." - Why not just "thought the play suffered because "the cast in general did not appear to believe in it all ...""

Changed. Cassianto^Talk 09:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• the playwright Peter Ustinov, - if he wrote the play, he's clearly a playwright. Do we need "the playwright"? Compare "a major role in Anton Chekhov's Ivanov"

Changed. Cassianto^Talk 09:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• the minor role of "Bashford" - quotes again

Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• You say "among the films", but list all six ("Among the films were: Alexander the Great (1956),"). "Among" suggests to me that there are more which have been left out.

Seems done. Cassianto^Talk 09:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• who recommended him to various casting directors who engaged him six of Burton's films. - possible to rework this? I had to reread it a couple times to realise what you meant

Changed to: "When Burton left for Hollywood years later he recommended Hordern to various casting directors who subsequently engaged him in six of Burton's films." Is this any better? Cassianto^Talk 16:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Reworked. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• The title role initially went to an unknown and inexperienced young actor; - who?

They were unknown, unfortunately. Cassianto^Talk 09:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Ah. I took "unknown" to mean previously not known, not "his name has been lost". — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• conscious of these problems, - you only mentioned one problem, the actor

Tweaked. Cassianto^Talk 09:36, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Hordern's predecessor proved to be inadequate. - worth mentioning who?

Yes, although the source doesn't say who, sadly. Cassianto^Talk 09:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Hordern also grew tired of Harrison's frequent ridiculing towards him in front of Browne. - is "ridiculing towards him" correct in BrE? I'd nix the "towards" myself

Tweaked. Cassianto^Talk 09:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• admitted a desire to assault Harrison that day, and admitted that, - two "admitted"s

Now one. Cassianto^Talk 09:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• they had an intense affair which lasted months after Nina had closed. ... Along with the closure of the play came the end of Hordern and Browne's relationship. - These seem to be mutually exclusive

Tweaked. Cassianto^Talk 16:13, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• epic historical drama film Cleopatra - per WP:SEAOFBLUE links should be reduced

. Done. I have de-linked "historical drama film". Cassianto^Talk 09:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• agonistical - is this a word? It's not showing up in my dictionaries  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 09:12, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

lol, it sounded right, changed. Cassianto^Talk 09:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• First paragraph of "King Lear" repeats "later" twice in two sentences

Good spot. Cassianto^Talk 09:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• However, in 1986 she had a fatal heart attack at the London flat she shared with her husband. - perhaps "at the couple's London flat"? "the London flat she shared with her husband" suggests to me that their separation had not reconciled, and someone else was her husband

Quite, now changed. Cassianto^Talk 09:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• guilt at the extramarital affairs he had had with many of his leading ladies during the marriage. - might be worth hinting to this earlier in the article; we only know of one when we read this sentence

A lot of the affairs Hordern doesn't go into depth about, only the one with Browne. Cassianto^Talk 09:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• The bust and accompanying plaque were unveiled in "The Hordern Room" on 29 January 1995. - Ref?

Unfortunately not, no. Is it possible to use the image of the plaque as a ref? That has all the details on it ;) Cassianto^Talk 09:33, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Cassianto, Try the bottom of the second column - SchroCat (talk) 09:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Great, many thanks for that. Cassianto^Talk 15:58, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Check for duplicate links. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 09:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Is there a tool for this? Cassianto^Talk 09:33, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Yes. You'd have to install this script to your Common javascript page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 12:52, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Chris, are you happy that all of your points have been met satisfactorily? Cassianto^Talk 12:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Comments from Dr. Blofeld

Will look fully later, but offhand I think I'd have expected to see a mention of the great classic comedy A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (film) in the lede and body in particular. It doesn't seem to say much in the lede about the more notable parts of his film career. Cleopatra (1963 film) and The Spy Who Came in From the Cold also memorable roles which spring to mind. Obviously you can't reel off half his filmography in the lede, but I think you could get away with mentioning some notable ones in the 1960s. What I would do is say "He appeared in various minor roles in British war films, and had significant parts in film productions such as Sink the Bismarck! (1960), Cleopatra (1963), The Spy Who Came in From the Cold (1965), A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (1966) and Where Eagles Dare (1968). Those are the films which always spring to mind with him. Narrating Kubrick's Barry Lyndon also very worthy of mentioning somewhere in the article. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:35, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it is true that I'm worried about bloat. AFTHOTWTTF was a great film but wasn't one that Hordern ever mentioned in his book, oddly. I agree with Cleopatra which has its own section. I'm surprised I didn't mention that. This was one of the major points of this PR, to see what I'd forgotten to mention. So I thank you for these Doc and I'll see what I can do. Cassianto^Talk 09:57, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

You could probably mention three or four films, I'd be more inclined to mention those films than the minor war ones anyway.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

OK, so I've expanded on Cleopatra and Forum, both in the lead, and mentioned the latter in the body. Which films would you subtract and add in their place? Cassianto^Talk 10:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Where you say "Hordern appeared in various minor roles in British war films, including The Man Who Never Was, The Baby and the Battleship, and I Was Monty's Double. ", see I wouldn't mention those films, especially if they're minor roles, not worth mentioning .I'd just say he was a regular minor player in British war pictures and appeared in films such as Sink the Bismarck, Cleopatra, The Spy Who Came in From the Cold and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. I would definitely mention those four films myself if I was writing it, though I guess his role in The Spy Who Came in From the Cold was comparable to some of the 50s war ones and could be excluded. Those are the four films I most associate him with anyway. As he had 200 cinema roles, I think you can at least afford to mention a handful of the ones he is probably better remembered for.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:26, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, I could've sworn I'd mentioned AFTHOTWTTF in the lead, but I couldn't have saved my edit. Is this film worthy of the lede? I have no problem putting it in if you think it should be there. Cassianto^Talk 16:11, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I'd definitely mention Cleopatra and AFTHOTWTTF in the lede yeah. Sink and Spy are optional, notable films though I suppose not big parts. Most of his performances were really bit parts weren't they? Personally I'd favour mentioning Sink and Spy above those 50s war films, three of which you mention which were not really that notable, but up to you!. In the 60s section you've now covered the notable ones. It would be good to see the odd film review for one or two if you can find it, though I doubt you'll find decent reviews from the period specifically about Hordern as he wasn't a leading player. A biographer might have something decent to say about one of those roles aside from Cleopatra.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:18, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

How about this? Cassianto^Talk 16:21, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

If you can squeeze in that he had roles in numerous 50s war pictures without mentioning any in particular as well I think that would be perfect and cover that period. The ones you've now mentioned are definitely the roles I would mention for film if I was writing this, you've already mention Passport to Pimlico which would have been the other I'd have thought of. Lede looks virtually spot on now I think, though I would put the years of the films in brackets. You could say something like "After a period playing minor parts in war films of the 1950s, in the 1960s he appeared in pictures such as... ♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:28, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Spy was 1965 I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:30, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Oops, yes now fixed. Cassianto^Talk 16:33, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

"After Cleopatra's release, Hordern made a return to war films, appearing in Sink the Bismarck! (1960)" -the problem though is that Cleopatra was released in 1963 and Sink came out in 1960.!♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, saw that. Now done. Cassianto^Talk 16:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

"After a few years, he was killed in a drunken hunting accident and upon his death, Annie moved with Margaret back to Buckinghamshire to the small village of Little Kimble. There, Annie lived in retirement while Margaret was sent to a private school for girls in Somerset.[3]" -I would reword a bit, something like "After his death in a drunken hunting accident several years later, Annie moved with Margaret back to Buckinghamshire to the small village of Little Kimble. There, Annie lived in retirement while Margaret was sent to a private school for girls in Somerset". Though it would be good to know when this was to make this practical, when did they marry and move to Ireland and he die?

Done. The source, unfortunatley, is lacking on dates, so I'll have a dig through the ancestry records tomorrow. Cassianto^Talk 18:45, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• " It was at Windlesham House that he made his stage debut in an epic called The Man with the Speckled Face" -do we know when?

Unfortunatly not, no. He started there in the 1920's and was there for a good few years. but I'd hate to take a guess, and I fear a date range would not be helpful. Cassianto^Talk 19:26, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "By the time he joined the college, his interest in acting had matured. In his 1993 autobiography, A World Elsewhere, he admitted: "I didn't excel in any area apart from singing; I couldn't read music but I sang quite well."[8] There he helped organise amateur performances of various Gilbert and Sullivan operas. The first of these operas was The Gondoliers, in which he played the role of the Duchess. The tutors called his performance a great success, and he was given a position within the men's chorus in the next piece, Iolanthe.[13] Over the next few years, he" -vary the he/his a little
  • This seems to have been fixed in the many recent copy edits this has had recently by kind colleagues. Cassianto^Talk 12:55, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• "In 1925 Hordern moved to Dartmoor with his family where they converted a disused barn into a farm house". -do we know the village?

No. He only gives the name of the house and the local river. Cassianto^Talk 23:16, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "a blasphemous bunk" or "blasphemous bunk?

The latter, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 22:58, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• film-making -generally I don't think we use the slash these days to we? I know I always call it filmmaker without.
  • As Tim kindly points out below, my prose favours that which was popular in Chaucer's day. Done. Cassianto^Talk 12:54, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Done. Cassianto^Talk 00:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Alongside this, he joined an amateur dramatics company, this time in Stevenage, and appeared in two plays; Journey's End, in which he played Raleigh, and Diplomacy, a piece which the actor disliked as he considered it to be "too old-fashioned". I would try to reduce the comma usage and write it as something like "In Stevenage he joined an amateur dramatics company and appeared in two plays; Journey's End, in which he played Raleigh, and Diplomacy, a piece which the actor disliked as he considered it to be "too old-fashioned"."

Done. Cassianto^Talk 00:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "On his return to London, after spending a few weeks in unemployment, he was offered a part in the ill-fated play Ninety Sail, which was about Sir Christopher Wren's time in the Royal Navy; the play was cancelled on the day Hordern was due to start work with "unforeseen problems" cited as the reason by its producers.[29]" -I would split as "On his return to London, after spending a few weeks in unemployment, he was offered a part in the ill-fated Ninety Sail. The play, about Sir Christopher Wren's time in the Royal Navy, was cancelled on the day Hordern was due to start work with "unforeseen problems" cited as the reason by its producers."

Done. Cassianto^Talk 00:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• " which was broadcast by the BBC" -some idea of month or season would be good here

June, done. Cassianto^Talk 23:14, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• " It also featured the radio actress Mabel Constanduros, who had also" -rep of also

Done. Cassianto^Talk 00:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "One such piece was Cold Comfort Farm, which starred its author Stella Gibbons. It also featured the radio actress Mabel Constanduros, who had also, with Gibbon's permission, adapted the book; Hordern was cast in the supporting role of Seth, a part he described as being "fun" to perform. The modernised script was "adored" by the cast, according to Hordern, but loathed by the audience who expected it to be exactly like the book." - iI would restructure as "One such piece was Cold Comfort Farm, which starred its author Stella Gibbons and the radio actress Mabel Constanduros, who had adapted the book with Gibbon's permission. Hordern was cast in the supporting role of Seth, a part he described as being "fun" to perform. The modernised script was "adored" by the cast, according to Hordern, but loathed by the audience who expected it to be exactly like the book."

Adopted, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 00:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "In 1940 he enjoyed a minor role in Without the Prince at the Whitehall Theatre[23] and appeared in another minor film role, this time in the Arthur Askey comedy Band Waggon. " -I think you can avoid saying "minor" twice here by wording it as "In 1940, after a minor role in Without the Prince at the Whitehall Theatre, he played the small, uncredited part of a BBC official alongside James Hayter.in Arthur Askey's comedy film Band Waggon. " I think there's probably a bit too much detail on such a minor part, especially with the review.

Reduced and opted for your version. Cassianto^Talk 09:09, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "The year closed with the poetic drama Stratton which also starred Clive Brook." -a little more detail here would be nice I think as it's a pretty short paragraph.

Deleted, so minor it wasn't worth mentioning. Cassianto^Talk 21:53, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "It started with a major role in Anton Chekhov's Ivanov. The production took place at the Arts Theatre in Cambridge an" -when was this?

Year added. Cassianto^Talk 22:19, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Spotting a few "Next came"s, can you reword one or two to avoid it seeming listy?

Ok, I've reworded a few that appeared close to each other. I can't seem to find anymore. Cassianto^Talk 22:19, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• " who engaged him six of " is in six intended here?

Yes, done. Cassianto^Talk 22:19, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• The Theatre Royal Brighton section I think has some unnecessary detail on his relationship with Harrison which could be trimmed. Considering you barely mention anything about his film career during this period, I think it's a lot to say about Harrison. I think you could chop the section by half and merge with the other.

I'm actually kind of pleased to mention something other than his films, to be honest. It becomes monotonous giving a breakdown of his films, most of which were minor during this period, and which were not particularly important to him or his career. If you tell me which details to delete, I'll happily consider it. Cassianto^Talk 22:19, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• "The New York Times called Hordern's role of the strict and pompous Harrington Brande in "an unsympathetic assignment", b" -odd to see a review on his character without a basic description of what the film is actually about. Can you put the film and his role in context here? I don't think you need to mention that many co-stars either.

Trimmed down co-stars to three. Cassianto^Talk 17:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "film makers" -inconsistent with ealrier-film-making, I would write both as filmmakers and filmmaking.
  • Done. Cassianto^Talk 12:56, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• "In 1957 Hordern was cast in John Mortimer's The Dock Brief about a failed barrister who is hired in court to defend a man who is on a charge of murder.[n 17] Hordern played the barrister opposite David Kossoff's murder suspect. " -you could avoid saying barrister twice here by merging sentences.

Tweaked. Cassianto^Talk 16:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Isn't it usually put in capital letters when stating Best Actor award?

Thanks, adjusted. Cassianto^Talk 16:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "the year 1959 was disastrous for Hordern. He made a return to the stage and to the Old Vic in the ill-fated production of Arthur Wing Pinero's The Magistrate in which he played Mr. Posket. According to the author and theatre critic J. P. Wearing, Hordern was "miscast"[107] in the role, although a reporter for The Stage thought that Hordern gave a "convincing portrayal".[107] The production itself received largely negative reviews. Wearing stated that on the whole, the play wasn't "played briskly enough";[107] The Times thought it had "durable theatrical quality";[107] while The Spectator opined that the production lacked "real ensemble playing".[107] This was followed by the part of Pastor Manders in Ghosts opposite Flora Robson. The Sunday Times published an unenthusiastic notice, and thought Hordern's character Cassius had "an anxious air" about him.[1" -too many reviews and not enough actually about the nature of the play and his own acting IMO.

Added a small plot line for The Magistrate, but I don't want to go into too much detail about this. Cassianto^Talk 16:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• " It was made in 1962, and,according to the actor, " -space needed

Odd. It seems to be a technical anomaly of there being no space needed in the edit screen, but a space being needed in the reading screen. I have fixed this by using a double space which has seemed to do the trick. Cassianto^Talk 09:15, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

• Again too much detail about Harrison and not enough about the nature of his role and the film itself. I say this now because you're really very brief with mentioning some of his film performances and then are pretty liberal with the Harrison coverage and Whistle and I'll Come to You underneath, which is interesting of course, but not a good balance with the other stuff I think. I think if you're to retain it then you could at least move After Cleopatra's release, Hordern made a return to war films, appearing in The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (1965),[120] How I Won the War (1967),[121] and Where Eagles Dare in 1968.[122] He also featured in the Roman farce A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum in 1966.[123] into it's own paragraph and give that some decent detail with some mention of costars/directors/plots. I would shorten the Whistle and I'll Come to You info too in favour of more on those films. I also noticed that you make no further mention of Burton, yet he was in a few of these films. Presumably they were now on amicable terms?

I think we need to remember that first and foremost, Hordern was a stage actor. His films, although plentiful, were a small part of his career. He was never a leading actor and had no desire to ever be a leading actor in film. They were, as he puts it, "a way of making fast money between theatre commitments". I really don't want to bloat this article talking too much about minor film roles, sorry. Cassianto^Talk 16:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I doubt he enjoyed TV much either but you still have a large paragraph dedicated Whistle and I'll Come to You , which looks unbalanced to me. I know it was a leading part in the TV series though. I think you can afford to add one line or two with perhaps a quote from a film critic on one of his 60s films without bloating it. Also, between 1970 and his death he appeared in 37 films by my count. I don't think it would be unreasonable to mention just three or four of the more notable ones. Post 60s I think the narration of Barry Lyndon and the role in Gandhi are the bare essentials. Up to you if think anything else is worth mentioning. The article does need to be reasonably comprehensive to pass FA, and if you completely ignore all the films of that period I don't think you can claim it to meet that part of the FA criteria, however sound the stage coverage is and however much he was never a leading film player. I know it's not easy with so many films to really pick out some worthy of mentioning when all weren't leading parts. At present though the article gives the impression that he wasn't involved with films after the 60s, and that's far from the truth.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:18, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Barry Lyndon now added with a review. Cassianto^Talk 21:36, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• I would mention Anne of the Thousand Days and briefly a small number of few of his 70s films, Lucky Lady with Hackman and Minelli and his narration of Kubrick's Barry Lyndon in 1975 worthy of mentioning. Playing an alchemist oppoiste John Hurt and Donald Pleasance in The Pied Piper (1972 film) and King in The Slipper and the Rose would be interesting to read too. In 1980s I would mention his roles in Gandhi and perhaps Ivanhoe and voice work for Labrynth.

I can see it's not easy to fit in certain film roles because of the stage work structure. An alternative of course is to keep all the stage work in one and then cover his film and television work in a separate section entirely, where you could elaborate a little in places without worrying about the stage work.

• "Approach to acting" -I think could still use a bit of reinforcement, though I can't imagine there being quite the coverage that Olivier and Steiger have. I'd like to see a bit more critical analsysis of his own acting and style to really take this to FA level if possible. Overall an excellent read, but could be better balanced in places and could be a bit more liberal with the film coverage simply for comprehension's sake, though I appreciate that like with Olivier and many of the other fine stage actors, they diminish that aspect.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Comments from Ceoil

I'll c/e as I read through; feel free to revert. Ceoil (talk) 12:50, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I will as well. I'm seeing some verbosity that could be trimmed a bit, but it seems good overall. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:47, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Find this a bit jarring, but now sure how to address, from the lead "He then successfully played the role on television five years later". Ceoil (talk) 01:42, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Can you correct this edit, which I'm pretty sure, in retrospect, made the wrong choice. Ceoil (talk) 02:08, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, do you want me to correct it to the former or the latter? Cassianto^Talk 08:26, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Both ideally, Cassianto. Ceoil (talk) 08:39, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Done. Cassianto^Talk 08:19, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Ceoil (talk) 01:18, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Comments from MarnetteD

Excellent work and a delightful read Cassianto. One suggestion - in the sub-section labeled "Paradise Postponed and You Never Can Tell" it isn't until the fourth paragraph that PP is mentioned and the fifth for YNCT - you might move that header down and create another one for the preceding three paragraphs. If you are happy with the way it is then please ignore this. When I was very young I got Hordern mixed up with Frank Middlemass. A fun mistake. Wonderful actors both I have wondered if they ever appeared onstage together. Thanks for all you work on the article C. MarnetteD|Talk 16:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I have fiddled about with this and have tried to come up with a suitable title. I have opted for this, is this OK? Cassianto^Talk 22:48, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

That looks good to me Cassianto. It is more inclusive of what is covered in the section. BTW Paradise Postponed is a gem. If you haven't seen it I would say it is worth your time. Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 23:06, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Nope, I haven't had the pleasure, but I will make it my next purchase on Amazon (other reputable outlets are of course available). Cassianto^Talk 23:12, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I've just noticed a curious item. The "Theatre Royal, Brighton" section discusses the cursed production of Nina (Dalayrac). When I go to that article it is about an one act "Opéra comique." While that article notes a ballet adaptation it makes no mention of any version that was a play without singing. A reader (i.e. me) is left to wonder if the play that Hordern was in is an adaption of the Dalyrac opera or if it was adapted from another French play with the same title. I don't know whether any alterations or additions need to be made to the MH article since the problem seems to lie with the Nina article. If there was some way to clarify the situation that would be helpful but I'm not quite sure how anyone would go about doing that. I would like to compliment all of the fine work being done on this peer review. MarnetteD|Talk 20:36, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks MarnetteD. Unfortunatley, I'm not going to be about for most of the day today, but I'll try and get around to this tonight. It may simply mean a minor adjustment when I look again at Hordern's book, such has been the case quite often during this review. Thanks again for another good observation. Cassianto^Talk 05:31, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Cassianto. Re: Nina, I did a little searching and came up with this obit from the Telegraph (I haven't checked whether you have already used this as a ref or source but it is fairly comprehensive so it might be of use if you haven't seen it before) - if you scroll down a bit you get to this

A production of Andre Roussin's Nina, in 1955, was chiefly remarkable for Hordern's screaming rows with the director, Rex Harrison - though consolation came in the shape of Coral Browne. "I kept falling in love," confessed Hordern. "It is a common complaint among actors. You cannot be at such close quarters, mind and body, without being sorely tempted."

WikiP's article for André Roussin is pretty sparse but the 1949 play Nina is mentioned. I'll let you make adjustments to that section as you see fit. Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 22:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks. Yes, the obit is used as a source and both his affair with Browne and his troubles working in Nina are already mentioned. The only thing that isn't mentioned is the quote; do you think I should add it? I'm already a bit mindful of the article's length. Now done. Cassianto^Talk 08:14, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Cassianto The main thing is that the link to Nina (Dalayrac) needs to be removed from the first paragraph about the play and the caption for CB's picture. I would add Roussin's name somewhere in the sentence "...lead in the Rex Harrison-directed French comedy Nina." As to the quote I like it as I think it shows MH's wry sense of humour but that is just me. Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 15:03, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Links removed and everything else seems fixed, I think. Let me know if there is anything else. Cassianto^Talk 07:37, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton

I am reading this with great care, so my review will take a bit of time. A lot of my points (though not all) may be described as quibbles, but I'd rather sort them out now rather than raising them at an FAC. This is my first instalment:

Lead

• (third line): "acclaim" rather than "celebration"?

Done. Cassianto^Talk 17:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• As you are headlining the Stratford Lear, you should give the year.

Done. Cassianto^Talk 17:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• starred in 200 films? An over-statement, surely? The filmography lists just over 100, in many of which he was obviously a bit player. Perhaps "appeared" rather than "starred", and check the number.

IMDb gives 191 appearences with BFI not far short of that. However, some of these were TV appearences lumped in. I have painstakingly counted them and it's 138. Now added. Cassianto^Talk 17:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Hordern played Gandalf in the BBC radio adaptation of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (1981), and in 1983 voiced Badger in the ITV film The Wind in the Willows." I don't think these are leadworthy details, certainly not in the first paragraph.

Removed, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 17:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• I don't think you "graduate" to Brighton College - it's a secondary school, a "minor public school" as we snobs would say, that educates from 11 to 18. "After leaving college..." also gives the wrong impression – you might get away with "After leaving the college..."

Tweaked. Cassianto^Talk 17:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• (third paragraph): "among others" – among other parts or among other actors?

Done. Cassianto^Talk 17:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• The Dock Brief (1958) sentence is placed out of chronology, but I wonder why this detail is leadworthy? As a more general point, there seems to be rather too many examples of stage/screen appearances given in the lead, by no means all of them of great significance in Hordern's career (e.g.Sink the Bismarck and A Funny Thing...). I'm not saying don't mention these in the text, but the lead should be rather more sparing of detail.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Deleted. Cassianto^Talk 17:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Too drastic now though IMO, you can't mention Passport and Scrooge and fail to mention Cleopatra and Forum, roles which I'd argue the public will generally associate him with above anything else. You've dedicated an entire paragraph to Cleopatra in the article yet barely anything on Passport but fail to even mention it there. Do you think that's ideal Brian? Agreed with cutting the voice work. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:03, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

How about this as a compromise? This, as Cleopatra does get a hefty mention in the body, and this removed as they were minor roles. Dr. Blofeld what do you think? Cassianto^Talk 20:46, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Much better, I'd be fine with that. Brianboulton? I do think you could get away with mentioning four or five films in total though and it not bloating it. Narrating Stanley Kubrick's Barry Lyndon, which is very notable. I think you could mention with the other two and it not bloat it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I think the lead definitely looks tidier now. I grew up in Hordern's "glory" years; he was greatly admired and keenly anticipated as a classical actor; when he turned up in A Funny Thing... or in minuscule blink-and-you-miss-him roles in e.g. Cleopatra, we assumed he was doing it for the money, which he probably was. At least he didn't do TV commercials ... or did he? Never mind – the lead is reasonably OK at the moment. Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

...he actually did appear in commercials, yes. Even back then they were trying to justify the licence fee! Cassianto^Talk 18:08, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're right, but as time goes on he's more likely to be remembered for those roles than his stage work as films live on after death, stage performances don't. I do wish he'd have done more films with leading roles like Olivier. I think it's fine now, but I think narrating Kubrick's Barry Lyndon is more than minor, it was one of the biggest films of the mid 70s.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:20, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Is the "Lear" mentioned in the fourth para the same as the one in the first? If so, should the same performance be covered twice in the lead?

Yes, deleted. Cassianto^Talk 17:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Family background

• The timescales suggested in this section are somewhat perplexing. Sir James Murray, the milk of magnesia inventor, was born in 1788 see here, so in 1857 when he married Fanny he was already 69. And then had five sons and a daughter? After Fanny's death he supposedly married Annie Tyrwhitt-Drake, a daughter of the zoologist and author Garrard Tyrwhitt-Drake. That's plain impossible, since the aforementioned Garrard wasn't born until 1881, ten years after Murray's death in 1871 aged 83 (which makes the drunken hunting accident somewhat implausible). I think that there has probably been some generational confusion, perhaps originating in the sources. A look at Sir James Murray's ODNB entry makes it clear it wasn't him that married Fanny in 1857. We read in ODNB: "In 1848 Murray married again; he and his second wife, Mary, daughter of Samuel Allen, had one daughter" – this information might be significant, but who, then, was Annie? As to Tyrwhitt-Drake, he obviously wasn't Garrard; he might have been Colonel William Montague Tyrwhitt Drake (1785–1848), who doesn't have an ODNB entry but his son, Charles Frederick Tyrwhitt Drake, does. The Colonel would be about the right age. Whatever, there is clearly some investigation necessary into exactly who married whom, and when, to get the generations and Michael's lineage right.

Right, I've checked the book again and it appears I may have confused things. Firstly, the year of marriage was wrong, I don't know where 1857 came from, I'm sure I read it somewhere, but it wasn't in the book on the second viewing. Hordern confirms that Fanny was Murray's first wife and the actor's grandmother. Fanny was the widow of an officer who was killed in the Indian Mutiny. She did die early and he did remarry - a lady called Annie Tyrwhitt-Drake, who came from a family of Buckinghamshire landowners. He doesn't actually elaborate on who her father was. I think this was me linking to someone who came up on WP and then just assuming it was them. I've fiddled about with it again, tell me if it makes more sense. Cassianto^Talk 18:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the details – and the timescale – are still problematic. I have copied Sir James Murray's ODNB entry, and you can read it here. It is by Richard Davenport-Hines, a professional historian and notable biographer, and although errors do occur in ODNB material, it is inconceivalble that a historian of his standing could have got just about everything wrong. He records Murray's first wife as Mary Sharrock, whom he married in 1809 and who died some time before 1848. That makes it impossible for Margaret to have been Murray's daughter by his first wife – Margaret would have been at least 60 when she married, and nearer 70 when Michael was born. Davenport-Hines names the second wife, married in 1848, as Mary Allen. It is technically possible that Margaret was the daughter from this marriage, but only if she was born in the last years of Murray's long life – he died aged 83 in 1871. It does not look plausible.

There is an obvious explanation for the different details given in Hordern's account. I think he slipped a generation. He was, after all, not a historian; he gave his ghost-writer details and he/she interpreted them. Thus, I believe Sir James Murray was Margaret's grandfather, not her father. Her father was, I deduce, Sir James's son, perhaps also called James. That would explain the different names of the wives, and would make the timescale roughly right. Of course, this is just my guesswork, and can't go into the article without reliable verification. But nor can we include details which simply don't add up. I'm afraid that the only answer is to cut out most of the stuff concerning Sir James. That would mean condensing the first two paragraphs to something like: "Hordern's mother, Mary Murray, was descended from James Murray, as Irish physician whose research into digestion led to his discovery of the stomach aid Milk of Magnesia in 1829. The invention earned him a knighthood and brought the family great wealth. Margaret grew up in England, and attended St Audries School for Girls in Somerset." Then go on to your third paragraph. It's brief, but it doesn't cut out anything relevant to Hordern, and is unchallengeable as to fact. Brianboulton (talk) 11:33, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I've fixed this now. Tell me what you think. Cassianto^Talk 18:03, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

The right decision. I have tweaked the "It was during..." bit, per a comment later in this review, and all looks good now. I am a bit otherwise engaged this evening and probably won't be able to resume the review until tomorrow, when I'll try and finish it. Brianboulton (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Sir James has now got an article too. I'm surprised he didn't have one to start with to be honest! Cassianto^Talk 08:46, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• "rose to the rank of lieutenant". That's the lowest-but-one commissioned level in the RIM, so unless he started in the ranks, which I doubt, "rose to" is probably not the most appropriate wording, particularly as he later rose higher.

Swapped for "gained". Cassianto^Talk 19:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Early years

• "commissioned to the rank of captain" → "promoted to the rank of captain" (he was already commissioned)

Changed. Cassianto^Talk 19:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "premature education" isn't a term I've heard before. I'd simply say he started school early.

Done. Cassianto^Talk 19:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Give the year of his stage debut at Windlesham and also of his AAA involvement.

The source doesn't give a year, but it says he was there for 9 years after joining in 1918. The AAA elaboration has been tweaked. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Is "epic" your word, or Hordern's? If the latter, he have meant it ironically (it doesn't sound like an "epic")

His word, and no indication of irony, bless him. Omitted. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• See my comments on lead – Brighton College was not "further education" in the sense that the term is used in England – post-school study. Thus: "to continue his schooling as a member of Chichester House..." etc

Changed. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "in The Mikado as a member of the choir..." – "chorus", surely?

Changed. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Early acting career (1930–39)/Theatrical beginnings

• " In 1925 Hordern moved to Dartmoor with his family where they converted a disused barn into a farm house. For Hordern the move was ideal; his love of fishing had become stronger and he was able to explore the remote landscape and its isolated rivers." As this subsection is entitled "Theatrical beginnings", and as the sentence jumps back to when Hordern was 13 or 14, I feel it belongs in the previous section.

Moved, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "lost out on" is perhaps a bit colloquial; perhaps "conceded"?

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "The Welwynn Times" – Welwyn, surely?

Nicely spotted. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Hordern decided to leave Sussex...": I'd omit "to leave Sussex". It's not relevant, and it seems, anyway, that he remained based in Sussex for several years yet.

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "became a traveling salesman for the British Educational Suppliers Association": perhaps say why he took this job, having just decided to become a professional actor. Presumably such a job gave him more flexibility in devoting time to acting.

This was his school where he first worked in Beaconsfield, which still exists today. The British Educational Suppliers Association was a family run company belonging to an old school chum from Windlesham. Added. Cassianto^Talk 20:23, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• "He quit his job" is American English. "He left his job..."

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Journey's End needs italics and wikilink. Diplomacy needs italics.

Seems done. Cassianto^Talk 20:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• What part did he play in Love's Labour's Lost?

He doesn't say in his book. And the only results coming up online are for a 1978 version. Cassianto^Talk 09:37, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• (Sign of the times note, not for action: in 1936 an unemployed jobbing actor could rent "a small London flat at Marble Arch"!!!)

Sickening isn't it. Porchester Place was the address; I dread to think how much it would be now to rent a place there! Cassianto^Talk 21:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Brianboulton (talk) 23:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• Great set of comments, much appreciated. Cassianto^Talk 09:37, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Another chunk:

London debut

• Is it possible to say when in 1937 Hordern began the role of Ludovico? That would help maintain the chronology. I'm also a bit confused by the reference to "the end of the two-week run", as you've just said the play ran to the end of the year.

The best I can do on this is to go from a scan of a letter written by Othello 's director to Hordern telling him to attend rehearsals for the performance. (Hordern, p. 49.) The letter is dated 16 February 1937. The performance was a two-week run; the "rest of the year" part incorporates the two other shows which I talk about in the following para. I've adjusted this to make more sense. Cassianto^Talk 10:01, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Cassianto, March '37, I think. That's the date I've used on the Michael Hordern on stage, screen and radio article, but I'll need to check the source when I get home later just to confirm. Don't change anything until later, but I'll let you know when I dig it out. - SchroCat (talk) 10:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Now clarified, with thanks to Gavin, with a ref added that it was March 1937. Cassianto^Talk 16:00, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Bristol repertory theatre

• "In mid-1937..." Same point as above, really. The impression from the previous section is that Hordern was engaged with Othello until the end of 1937. Clarification required.

I think, by my calculations, the fix to the previous section would have now sorted this. A two week run starting from around March 1937. Cassianto^Talk 10:26, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• I'm amazed to learn that my old friend Stella Gibbons starred in a theatrical performance of Cold Comfort Farm in 1938, a fact on which biographers are silent. Well, well. I didn't know the old duck had it in her.

Not so, I misread "which opened with Stella Gibbons' Cold Comfort Farm " with "which opened with Stella Gibbons in Cold Comfort Farm ". Sorry to disappoint. Cassianto^Talk 10:26, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Second World War and film debut

• "war breaking out across Britain" is somewhat misleading. Suggest replace with "the outbreak of war"

Changed. Cassianto^Talk 10:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Can you confirm the play title is Bats in Belfry, not Bats in the Belfry?

Checked and it was wrong. Now fixed. Cassianto^Talk 10:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "that Christmas" – be more date-specific (not everyone celebrates Christmas)

Changed to "that December". Cassianto^Talk 10:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Soon after he took up his gunner post..." – just like that? It appears that he was totally untrained and inexperienced in the field of naval gunnery, so I think I'd reword: "Soon after, he began his naval gunnery training on board..." etc

Checked and changed, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 10:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "who commissioned him within a year" – commanding officers don't commission other officers, the Navy Board does that. So, "who recommended him for a commission within a year".

Fixed. Cassianto^Talk 10:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Be consistent in capitalising Navy/navy

Caught it. Cassianto^Talk 10:50, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Shortly after the departure of his , he was promoted to that rank..." For clarity's sake I'd reword: "Shortly after the departure of his immediate superior, he was promoted to lieutenant commander..."

Swapped, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 10:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Marriage and post war years

• The formulation "It was during a short visit to Liverpool in 1943 that..." is magaziney rather than encyclopaedic. Better: "During a short visit to Liverpool in 1943,..."

Changed, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 10:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• I'm a bit confused about his role as a ship dispatcher at the Admiralty, "a post he kept until 1949". From what follows, it seems that Hordern was fully occupied with his acting career between 1946 and 1949 - you mention around a dozen film and stage roles. So what time did he have for dispatching ships? Was he on more or less permanent leave?

Hordern says that "after 4 years being kindly looked after the Navy I realised I was going to have to make my own living." He says thisafter telling us he joined the Admiralty in 1945. Now, he doesn't elaborate further, only saying that he was four and a half years older. I think his chronology might be a bit out and that he meant the start of the war. Cassianto^Talk 16:37, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Now adjusted. I have taken it to mean the entirety of the war rather than the years after it as it would have been a near-on impossibility to be in all those places at once. Cassianto^Talk 18:27, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Two other minor film roles occurred that year" – clarify that Noose was a film role, or delete "other"

Done, although I've also deleted the review of Noose as it wasn't really relevant to him. Cassianto^Talk 18:43, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Two other minor film roles occurred that year, as Maxim de Winter in Rebecca which was based on the novel of the same name..." Maxim de Winter is a major character in Rebecca (Olivier played him in the 1940 Hitchcock film). According to IDMb this 1947 effort was a TV movie; as there were then about 10 sets in the entire country, it's no wonder it's been largely overlooked. But I suggest you delete "minor", and clarify the nature of the production.

Done. Cassianto^Talk 18:43, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• I thought that "newly opened" should be hyphenated, and added one as a minor edit. This was promptly reverted by another editor on the ground that hyphens do not follow "-ly". The Oxford Dictionary of English gives some support to my view, but I won't press the point.

I saw, and I do have much faith in Rothorpe and his knowledge on these things. Cassianto^Talk 18:47, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "the Willard Stoker-directed thriller Ghosts": is this Ibsen's Ghosts. If so, I would not describe this as a "thriller". If it's a different play that has pirated Ibsen's title, then better name the wretched author.

Ha, nope, it was the real deal. Cassianto^Talk 20:07, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

In that case, I think Ibsen should get a credit (no one's ever heard of Willard Stoker), e.g. "Ibsen's Ghosts, directed by Willard Stoker

Done. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• As a general point, you need to be more specific in differentiating between stage and film appearances. For example, in the final paragraph there's nothing to show that A Woman in Love is a stage play and Passport to Pimlico a film.

More soon. Brianboulton (talk) 15:49, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Third instalment

Peak years/Ivanov

• Clarify whether MH played the title role in Macbeth; in the 1960 film he was Banquo (I remember that film because the actors who played Macbeth and Lady Macbeth were in their sixties and looked it)
  • Done. Cassianto^Talk 13:07, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• I'd mention the title of the play Saints Day a little earlier in the paragraph, e.g. "...to take part in a theatrical competition at the Arts Theatre in London in 1951, for which he entered his play Saints Day". Also, "reaching first place" is a bit vague; you need to be more specific as to whether this play won the competition, and if so whose decision it was, since the "theatrical commentators" (is that "critics?") were apparently unimpressed.

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Shakespeare Memorial Theatre

• "Despite having already starred in several Shakespearean plays..." – had he? Apart from Macbeth and a prewar Orlando, nothing else mentioned, so "starred" might be better as "appeared".

Reworked. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• You could link Marley's ghost

Linked. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "With the first play beckoning" → "With the first play of the season beckoning"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "anonymously attributed" – I don't think that's possible, though I know what you mean: " an anonymous theatre reviewer, quoted in Hordern's autobiography..."

Thanks, done. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

The Old Vic

• "he began to obscure less matter with more art" – I know this is a critic's comment, but ... do you know what it means?
  • It comes from a My Word story by Denis Norden in which his nephew Arthur got his head stuck in Henry Moore's statue The Mother, and had to be extracted, leaving Moore Mater with less Art. Or to put it another way, it's from Act 2 of Hamlet as any fule kno. Tim riley talk 00:42, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
    • Leaving aside the Norden play on words, when the Queen rebukes Polonius "More matter with less art", she is simply telling him to stop bullshitting and get on with it – he has just, after all, informed her that "brevity is the soul of wit". Which still leaves me wondering what the critic meant with his inversion, in relation to Hordern's performance. What will readers make of it? Brianboulton (talk) 11:38, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Sorry about my frivolous late-night addition. I don't find the critic's comment opaque: I take it to mean that MH was clear and direct in the early scenes but piled on the characterisation or the phrasing a bit too much for clarity in the later scenes. The wonderful John Wood was often accused of that sort of thing, and if I have ever seen more cherishable actors on the stage than Wood and Hordern I can't think who they may have been. Tim riley talk 15:37, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
        • Possibly Felix Aylmer, the archetypal Polonius, could make it a trilogy?. My concern is not so much what the critic meant as whether the general reader, who perhaps doesn't know the play so well, would understand the comment. Perhaps I underestimate readers' capacities. Brianboulton (talk) 10:10, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• "After Edinburgh, Benthall took Hamlet on a provincial tour and enjoyed a successful run of 101 performances." That reads as though Benthall rather than the play enjoyed the run. Needs tweaking.

Tweaked accordingly. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "In the summer of 1953 Benthall and his company were invited to Helsingør, Denmark, by the country's government to entertain the Norwegian Royal Family by showing Hamlet." Awkward construction – maybe "In the summer of 1953 the Danish government invited Benthall and his company to Helsingør, to perform Hamlet for the Norwegian Royal Family". I might also add a bracketted (Elsinore) after "Helsingør", to underline the significance of the location.

Done both. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "like-ability" – I assume the hyphen is Hordern's?

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "and Hordern of Burton as Richard received more attention from fans" – the lapse to "Richard" jars. Try "and Hordern of Burton who received more attention from fans"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:49, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "but the role was re-cast with Hordern in the role" – needs rephrasing to avoid the repetition.
  • Done. Cassianto^Talk 12:59, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• "Simultaneous to this" → "Simultaneously"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 21:39, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "he was also commuting back and forth to Pinewood Studios" – "also" and "back and forth" are redundant

Done. Cassianto^Talk 21:39, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• "filming several films" – hmm, surely not.

Done.Cassianto^Talk 21:39, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Theatre Royal, Brighton

• I think there's too much small detail in this section. Nearly 500 words about not very much, and also contradictions, such as "they had an intense affair which lasted months after Nina had closed" versus "Hordern and Browne's relationship ended shortly after the play closed". I think the prose could be reduced by about a third without losing anything of importance.

How's this Brian? Cassianto^Talk 21:39, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

A good 150 words better – fine now I think. Brianboulton (talk) 22:18, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Films and 1950s theatre

• "Another reason" → "Another reason for his dislike of film..."

Seems fixed. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "He admitted to having a good ability at learning lines" sounds rather as though he was confessing a fault. "He acknowledged his ability at learning lines..."?

Done. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• delete "obvious" (end of first para)

Seems fixed. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "In 1957 Hordern was cast as the barrister in John Mortimer's courtroom drama The Dock Brief which told the story of a failed lawyer who is hired in court to defend a man who is on a charge of murder". Clarify that this was a theatre role, as all the recent text has been about films.

Clarified and tweaked. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Re What Shall We Tell Caroline: this performancc doesn't seem noteworthy in the context of MH's career, and I wonder whether it's worth the space devoted to it.

Removed. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "He made a return to the stage and to the Old Vic" – "at" rather than "and to"

Fixed. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "ill-fated": the play was not particularly successful, but "ill-fated" seems an overstatement, and reads as editorial opinion. I see you use the same expression in the image caption, about a different play.

Adjusted, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 10:04, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "This was followed by the part of Pastor Manders in Ghosts opposite Flora Robson. The Sunday Times published an unenthusiastic notice, and thought Hordern's character Cassius had "an anxious air" about him." Something wrong here. You've just said that Hordern played Manders, and anyway there's no "Cassius" in Ghosts. Have you missed something out?

Sorry, the confusion is at my door. Now fixed. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Last sentence slightly contradictory; he's "unaware" why the play failed, but then gives an explanation. Perhaps change "unaware" to "unsure"?

Fixed. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry I couldn't finish, but I'm getting there slowly. The rest soon. Brianboulton (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

You're not the only one, unfortunately. I'm sorry for my late replies but I'm getting there eventually. Cassianto^Talk 10:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Note: I'm leaving three more sections of comment, then I'm going to pause until Tim has finished. He'a tending the to make many of the same points as I am, which must be irrritating for you. I hope that when he's finished his sweep there won't be that much left for me in the final sections.

Cleopatra and the 1960s

• Say what part he played in Cleopatra (Cicero). I don't think "It was made in 1962" does justice to the gestation of this film. Buffs will know that it was 3 years or so in the making, with various false starts, changes of director, location, cast etc., matters not really covered by "various setbacks including cast sickness and adverse weather conditions". It would be interesting to know at what stage Hordern entered the fray. Incidentally, if you've seen the film you'll realise that much of his role must have been cut before the final version – it's a very small part.
• I would not class The Spy Who Came in from the Cold as a "war" film – not in the sense in which the term is normally used.

Adjusted by taking out "war". Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "held the director in admiration" is stilted and unidiomatic. You could say, "likewise thought highly of the director"

Swapped. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "being able to have" simplifies to "having"

DoneCassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "the rules of a strict script" → "the strict rules of a script"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• Another dubious "admitted" (where's the guilt?) "stated" would do.

fixed. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• I'd think about splitting the sentence which begins "The programme was released...", and you should say "towards the end of 1968" rather than "towards the end of the year", as the date has not been mentioned for a while.

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "The year was finished..." → "Hordern's year finished..."

Seems done. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Later career

1970–90/Jumpers

• "His co-star was Diana Rigg" – "would be" at this stage, likewise "was to be directed..." – the production hadn't started yet.

Fixed. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• Wood wasn't "taking part in the play", so I'd rephrase, e.g. "deliberated whether to take up the post". Or replace "play" with "project".

Fixed in one of Tim's points. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "decided to commit" sounds distinctly transatlantic. Can you reword?

Fixed in one of Tim's points. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "An agreement was met..." – "made", not "met". Who were the parties to this agreement? Clearly not Hordern who was angered by it. Probably better as "X and Y agreed..."

Asjusted. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "He vented his frustrations to Wood" – "on", not "to"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

King Lear

• "with King Lear's appearance at the Nottingham Playhouse"? Wow. However, I'd say "with King Lear at the Nottingham Playhouse"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "admitted", again

Seems done. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• "contemporary of Lear's as opposed to a servant": a contemporary is someone living at the same time as another, so a servant can be a contemporary – they are not opposites. Perhaps an "intimate" of Lear's?

Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:57, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• You can "defy" convention but I don't think you can "negate" it.

Changed. Cassianto^Talk 18:40, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "spend the time" is redundant

Seems fixed. Cassianto^Talk 18:40, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "detracting away from" → "detracting from"

Seems done. Cassianto^Talk 18:40, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "exclaiming" probably breaches WP:WEASEL

Swapped for "stating". Cassianto^Talk 18:40, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Brianboulton (talk) 10:10, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

My final slice:

Stripwell, and voice work

• "it was a time in his Hordern's life" – one or other but not both

Opted for the former. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Did "one critic" really deliver that long sentence without any punctuation?

I missed a comma. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Return to Stratford-upon-Avon and Jumpers

• It's confusing to have Jumpers in two section titles. You could make this "...Jumpers revival"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Presumably as Prospero in The Tempest, although he was Caliban last time round.

David Suchet was Caliban this time around, and Hordern played Propero. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Who did he play in Love's Labour's Lost?

Don Adriano de Armado, now added. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "behaviour2 is a mass noun and should not be pluralised (whatever the psychologists, who do pluralise it, say)

Well I never knew that; this is what I love about your's and Tim's reviews! Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "adversely different compared to how it was in the 1950s" – unnecessarily verbose. "different from the 1950s" means the same.

Changed, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "lacking morale because of the management who preferred dishing out disciplinaries over offering guidance and assistance to their young actors". Very colloquially worded. Simplify to "lacking in morale because management preferred discipline rather than offering guidance and assistance to their young actors."

Thanks, changed. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• I think you can get away with "opine" once. Twice is winceworthy, this is the third. And there's another lurking in the footnotes... For your consideration.

Reduced to one. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "He went on to compare it to the 1972 version by saying" – again verbose, as against: "Compared to the 1972 version it was "unquestionably a busy little number..." etc

Swapped, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Television and radio

1980–83

• "adapted the role "in a grand, rather old fashioned way": would that be "interpreted"? "Adapted" doesn't seem right.

Done, although someone had changed it to "played". Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Paradise Postponed and You Never Can Tell

• We need a year indicator at the beginning of the section. Are we still in 1986?

Yes, added. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Why is it called "the 1983 saga"? The book was first published in 1985 – but the year is irrelevant detail

Deleted this by moving the correct year to the front. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• "admitted".

Changed to "considered himself to be..." Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Excuse my plunking this into your post BB and please move it if needed. All the sites that I found list the air dates as September thru November '86. Some are user generated so they can't be used as refs. Maybe this one will do. Don't be thrown by the 1986-91 dates as they include the sequel Titmuss Regained. Historical note: the series aired on Masterpiece Theatre Oct thru Dec of 86. As I remember this is the first series that was shown so close to its UK airings. Up until then the gap was longer - months or years in fact. MarnetteD|Talk 23:42, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Final years and death

• "old age" has no hyphen

Deleted.Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• Note 23 has no citation
  • I've deleted this as the picture conveys that information better than any text could. Cassianto^Talk 13:13, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
• As Hordern died just over three months after the Brighton unveiling, to say his final film appearance was "a few months later" is perhaps misleading, particularly as he did further work after the film. I'd replace "a few months later" with "shortly afterwards".

Done. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

• You could lose "Little is known of the run-up to his illness, although", and start the sentence "Medical staff confirmed..."

Swapped. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Approach to acting

• There are better words than "claimed"; a simple "said" would do. And the sentence needs flipping, to avoid ambiguity. Thus: "The critic Brian McFarlane, writing for the British Film Institute, said that Hordern, despite his relaxed attitude, "had one of the most productive careers of any 20th century British actor."

Done. Cassianto^Talk 19:15, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Odds and ends

• According to IMDb, Hordern won a BAFTA film award for his role in The Slipper and the Rose
• The same source says he won a Royal Television Society award in 1981, for his part in All's Well That Ends Well, a performance not mentioned in the article and perhaps more noteworthy than some that are.

Phew, I've done it. Over to you now – notify when you've finished responding. Brianboulton (talk) 23:18, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat

I've not read the many excellent comments above, so I may conflict with them, or repeat something already explained: my apologies!

Family background and Early years

• "rose to the rank of lieutenant": It's about the lowest commissioned rank there is, so he was unlikely to have risen to that position (unless he came up from the ranks)

I think I fixed this with Brian's earlier comment; I changed "rose to" to "gained", please tell me if that's any better. Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "commissioned to the rank of captain". He was already commissioned (his lieutenancy was as a commissioned officer), so "promoted" is probably best

Again, see above. Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• Captain's salaries are passable, but unlikely to be able to justify "This enabled the family to live in comfort and allowed Margaret to employ a scullery maid, nanny, groundsman, and full-time cook." Private wealth was obviously a factor, rather than just the salary, so probably best to tweak that.

I cannot write it any other way unfortunatley. Hordern attributes his domestic comfort to Ned being in full-time employment. He doesn't admit to private wealth or inheritance, which I suspect. Can you think of a way to tweak this, because I honestly can't. Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

You could detach it a bit, though: "The family were able to live [or just "lived"] in comfort and Margaret employed..." Rothorpe (talk) 01:21, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Rothorpe, adjusted. Cassianto^Talk 22:04, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Theatrical beginnings

• Probably worth linking prep school for those unaccustomed to the British system

Done. Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "lost out on the prize" seems a little unencyclopaedic to me. Maybe just "did not win" would suffice

Brian caught this, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Hordern decided to leave Sussex": the last we heard he was in Beaconsfield, Bucks!

Well spotted, bravo! Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "He quit his job": "he left his job would be better

Another one of Brian's already dealt with. Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "You link First World War in the previous section, but not Second World War in FN6. Go with consistency between the two (and de-link the first, imo)

Done. Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "He enjoyed his time there": Who – Hordern or Baylis?

Lilian was a she, but the Victorians were an odd bunch I suppose, so who knows! Done. Cassianto^Talk 22:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Done to the start of Bristol rep: more to follow shortly in this excellent and enjoyable read. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:33, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Made all the much better by the excellent reviews I've had so far, including your's. Cassianto^Talk 22:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Bristol rep

• I don't think we need "fun" to be in speech marks

Neither do I now, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Second World War

• "enlisted instead with the Royal Navy,[38] as a gunner.[12]" May be worth switching this slightly to be "enlisted instead as a gunner with the Royal Navy[12][38]"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Marriage and post war years

• "The Horderns rented accommodation had since fallen into near dereliction and they were forced to move, this time to 49 North Road, Highgate.[55]" Do we need to know this level of detail? They were in London and—as far as I can see from the text—which bit was immaterial.

"were forced to move to another property in nearby Highgate."? Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Down to "Films and 50s theatre". I'll be back. – SchroCat (talk) 14:16, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Films and 1950s theatre

• Hordern was "miscast": I'm not sure miscast needs to be in quotes

Done. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• "Wearing stated that on the whole": there are two semi colons in this sentence, which seems a little excessive

Now just the first one. Second replaced with a comma. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Jumpers

• "highlights of [his] career": as you've said this is in Hordern's voice, I think we can dispense with the square bracketed words and just use the full quote of "unbelievable, one of the highlights of my career"

Done. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• In the final paragraph you have "the English drama critic" and "the British philosopher": I'm not sure we need the nationalities of these two?

Done. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Final years and death

• "Lord Langland in the comedy drama A Very Open Prison in which he played Lord Langlands." Trim one of the Langland[s]

Another good spot, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Thoroughly enjoyable throughout, with one exception. I'm prepared to overlook the non-mention of his role on Up Pompeii (film) (which I'm sure he would too), although I would have thought at least a passing reference to Paddington (1975 TV series) would have made its way in, although that may say more about me than anything else! Please drop me a note when you take this to FAC. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 16:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

No, I will add that. Way before my time, but the music is strangely familiar. There's also a lovely closing quote in his book about Paddington which I was deliberating about putting in; you've convinced me, and I shall do this tomorrow. Thanks very much for taking the time as always. Cassianto^Talk 22:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I've been watching some of his 70s films of late and yeah he did have significant roles in Up Pompeii and The Slipper in the Rose, more than a minor role. In Slipper, you could say he "played the monarch father of Richard Chamberlain's character". Gandhi I think might be worth mentioning despite the minor role, but I guess at least you've now mentioned Barry Lyndon.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:25, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

My pleasure! The Paddington series is available on a double DVD: it's still lovely to watch, and my 5-yo daughter is as big a fan as I am! Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 22:46, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• How old were you in the early 1990s, and do you remember ever pestering a disgruntled old actor outside a phone box somewhere in Berkshire? Call it a coincidence, but... Cassianto^Talk 18:13, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• LOL, I don't thi that by any stretch of the imagination I could have been mistaken for a small boy in the early 90s! – SchroCat (talk) 18:27, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

I'm rather late to the table, I see, but please don't close the PR yet awhile: I shall have plenty to say tomorrow, I hope. Tim riley talk 21:39, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Your comments, as always, are worth the wait Tim. Cassianto^Talk 18:17, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

First lot. Leaving lead till last, as usual.

• Family background
  • "the son of a Lancastrian vicar who was the rector" – vicar and rector are both job titles. It would be more correct to say "the son of a Lancastrian priest who was the rector" or "the son of a Lancastrian clergyman who was the rector".
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "he met and fell in love with Margaret, after they were introduced by one of his brothers" – goes a bit awry timewise. I'd either drop the "met and" or replace "after they were" with "to whom he was".
    • Opted for the former, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• Early years
  • "his family's disinterest in the theatre" – careful with "disinterest(ed)" – it used to mean, and to old codgers like me still does, not "uninterested" but "unbiased" – having no personal stake in the outcome of a matter. I might make this "his family's lack of interest in the theatre" or "his family's indifference to the theatre".
    • Changed to: "In his autobiography Hordern admitted that his family showed no interest in the theatre and that he had not seen his first professional play, Ever Green, until he was 19.". Is that any better? Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Just the job, I'd say. Though n.b. that before you go to FAC you should settle on whether MH is quoted in the present or past tense in re his memoirs. "He admitted" here, but "Hordern credits" just below, etc. Tim riley talk 21:27, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
        • Got it. Changed to "noted". I think this was the only slip, but please do tell me if I'm incorrect. Cassianto^Talk 21:57, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "Hassall, who also went on to have a successful career as an actor, was, as Hordern credits, instrumental in his decision to embark on a theatrical career" – two careers in short succession. You might say something like "Hassall, who also went on to have a successful stage career, was, as Hordern credits, instrumental in his decision to become an actor".
    • Much better, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• Theatrical beginnings
  • "the St. Pancras People's Theatre" – are you sure you want the full stop?
    • I'm sure I don't, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "by the actor-manager Lilian Baylis" – news to me that Lilian Baylis ever acted. I'm pretty sure she was a manager pure and simple
    • Doh. Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• London debut
  • I'm not quite sure of the import of the understudy job. Did Murray leave near the end of the run, with Hordern going on in his stead?
    • Changed to: "This allowed Hordern to take his place for which Daltry paid Hordern an extra £1 a week."
  • "Sir Christopher Wren" – I think you know my views on piping titles: to my mind, doing it this way is a jolt to the reader's eye, and Sir Christopher Wren is more trouble for the editor but kinder to the reader.
    • Done, and I've also moved the possessive apostrophe inside the pipe, if that's ok? Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• Second World War and film debut
  • "received his conscription that December" – as he was a volunteer is "conscript" the right word?
    • What would be the right word? Call up?,
      • That seems right to me. I shall pass with dignity over the disgraceful exchange below. Tim riley talk 21:27, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
        • Haha, changed. Cassianto^Talk 08:38, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "well-ellocuted diction" – I don't think there is a verb "to elocute". I'd just say "clear", I think.
    • Cass, you could try "well-clear diction" if you want to see Tim turn purple in apoplexy... – SchroCat (talk) 20:04, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Done. Would I dare do that. I remember the last time he turned purple at the Wehwalt Arms, it it wasn't pleasant then! Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "Simultaneous to his naval responsibilities" – feels a bit odd; perhaps "alongside his naval responsibilities"
    • Changed. Cassianto^Talk 20:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
• Marriage and post war years
  • Header – the OED hyphenates "post-war"
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 21:52, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "During a short visit to Liverpool" – I should like to pretend that my native city is so important that it needs no blue-link, but in conscience I can't.
    • I'm impartial to the idea of it being blue linked or not; I don't mind either way. Cassianto^Talk 21:52, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "André Obey who cast him in his first television role, Noah" – I was taken aback by the "twice-weekly performances": Noah is a one-off play. Did they film it in twice-weekly sessions? Seems unlikely: this was years before telerecording came in. Or did "twice-weekly" mean the rehearsals? From the details at the BFI site it looks like a standard televised play, which would have been transmitted live. The play, incidentally, was not, as far as I know, an adaptation of a novel.
    • I've checked this in the book and he meant "I found the rehearsal and live show to be exhausting". Fixed. Cassianto^Talk 12:14, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "The following month Hordern fathered his only child" – this is not my area of expertise, but I understand that if a child is born in November the fathering was done some months earlier, though I may have been misinformed.
    • Changed to: "The following month Eve gave birth to the couple's only child, a daughter, Joanna..." Any better? Cassianto^Talk 21:52, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  • That engagem;ent as Bottom was pretty ritzy: MH was taking part in the very first performance by the Covent Garden Opera Company (now called The Royal Opera). I should say that such an engagement was decidedly a step on the professional ladder.
    • Added a bit to reflect this, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "in nearby Highgate" – nearby where? Not Kensington I assume – did they have another home after Elvaston place before this derelict joint?
    • I've deleted the entire sentence Tim, as it did seem irrelevant. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "he portrayed the part as the blustery eccentric Mr. Toad " - either "he portrayed the part of the blustery eccentric Mr. Toad" or he portrayed the part of Mr. Toad as a blustery eccentric". And there's another full stop here you might want to think about.
    • No thinking necessary, deleted. Cassianto^Talk 08:40, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

More soonest. I'm enjoying this enormously. Tim riley talk 19:13, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Round Two

• Peak years: 1950–70
  • Like Hell were those his peak years! He was even finer in the 1970s. Just the years will suffice here, thank you!
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "which were published in the following week's notices" – I think I'd drop these eight words; they don't add anything much, I think.
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol" – American form of possessive? I'd go for Dickens's.
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "he played the role of Marley's ghost" – or just played Marley's ghost?
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "upon its release" – I might blitz those three words too
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "whilst Time magazine" – I'm never sure what "whilst" has that "while" hasn't, other than an extra letter and an obsolete air.
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "With the first play beckoning" – "imminent"?
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "played the role of Caliban" – again, I'd lose "the role of"
    • Done, with a few tweaks in between. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Byam Shaw reassured Hordern about his performance and he went on to assume the role for the entire run" – ambiguous: perhaps "Reassured by Byam Shaw, Hordern played the role for the entire run" or some such.
    • Done. I've gone with: "Reassured by Byam Shaw, Hordern remained in the role for the entire run". Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "Hordern was thrilled" – perhaps "he was thrilled"?
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "as the run matured" – the season rather than the run of The Tempest, so perhaps "as the season continued"?
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "upon its expiration, he secured a position within Michael Benthall's theatrical company" – you have a liking for old-fashioned prepositions – fine in moderation, but nevertheless I think I might make this "on its expiration, he secured a position in Michael Benthall's theatrical company".
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "In the summer of 1953 Benthall and his company were invited to Helsingør, Denmark, by the country's government to entertain the Norwegian Royal Family by showing Hamlet. The play was well received by the royals, particularly by Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden" – the Scandinavians get a bit mixed here. The Danes were "entertaining the Norwegian royals, and then up pops the King of Sweden, unexpectedly.
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "like-ability" – did Horden really hyphenate the word? Looks very odd.
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "as the decade matured" – do decades mature? Perhaps "progressed"?
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "The war was a popular genre" – perhaps make this specifically the Second World War.
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • [The Magistrate – I can't believe MH was miscast: the role could have been written for him! Must have been poor direction.]
  • 1959 – I don't suppose the views of an ex-actor and by then eminent publisher are worth citing, but for your private consideration Rupert Hart-Davis wrote in 1959, "An actor called Michael Hordern played Macbeth better than I have ever seen him played before (Gielgud was a disaster in the part)".
    • I'll use that; do you have a citation, Tim? Cassianto^Talk 09:37, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
      • I'll send you the reference tomorrow when I'm back among my bookshelves. Tim riley talk 14:43, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
        • Now done. Please can you check to see if I have this correct. Cassianto^Talk 12:18, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "The actor was unaware of the reasons as to why – perhaps trim to "He was unsure why…"
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "In 1960, Hordern played Admiral Sir John Tovey in Sink the Bismarck! "- probably best to mention that this was a film
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "the most extraordinary piece of film-making in which [he] had the pleasure to take part" – as this is in direct speech I think I'd leave the pronoun as "I" and drop the bracketed "he".
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "adverse weather conditions" – one of these days I am going to bite in the leg whoever it was at the Met Office who dreamed up this clunky phrase: what it takes 25 letters to say can be said in 10: "bad weather".
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 09:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
  • "Roman farce A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum "– worth mentioning that it was a musical, and MH had to sing (very, very badly, but somehow superlatively right – if you haven't seem him, supported by Zero Mostel, Phil Silvers and Jack Gilford in "Everybody Ought to Have a Maid" abandon everything and get hold of the video at once.)
    • Seen it and loved it. Probably the best number in the film! Cassianto^Talk 19:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "his upcoming television drama" – a personal, fogeyish comment: I hate the Americanism "upcoming" for the English "forthcoming". It makes me want to upthrow.
    • Fixed. Cassianto^Talk 12:19, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Here endeth the Second Lesson. More anon. Tim riley talk 18:56, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

All done up to here. Cassianto^Talk 19:22, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Tim – as we are covering the same ground and often making the same points, I'm pausing my review until you're through, so that Cassianto's task is made simpler. I've done to the end of the King Lear section; could you let me know when you've finished? Brianboulton (talk) 10:16, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Last lot from TR

• Jumpers
  • Errors of fact here: Jumpers was not Stoppard's second play and The Real Inspector Hound (in the note) was not his first. Stoppard's WP article gives an accurate list.
    • According to Hordern, this sequence is correct. But then we know how, ahem, confused he got in his autobiography. I'll trust the judgement and change. Cassianto^Talk 19:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
  • It might be worth calling the play a "comic satire", because it is very funny.
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 19:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Wood … deliberated whether to take part in the play – as it is not clear from the present text why a staunch RC would boggle at the text, I'd be inclined to omit this sentence.
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 19:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
• King Lear
  • We seem to have got out of chronological order here. Why is the 1969/70 Lear written up after the 1972 Jumpers?
    • Moved. Cassianto^Talk 19:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
• Return to Stratford-upon-Avon and Jumpers
  • "...thought the reprisal was a "tidier play than it looks" – not keen on "reprisal", which usually means getting your own back. I might make this "thought the revival revealed a "tidier…"
    • Done. Cassianto^Talk 19:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
• Paradise Postponed and You Never Can Tell­
  • Mortimer was a writer, not a director.
    • Changed. Cassianto^Talk 19:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
• Final years and death
  • I don't know that the mention of the BAFTA gong for design belongs in Hordern's biography.
    • It doesn't, removed. Cassianto^Talk 19:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
  • That Times quote about the Austin Princess wasn't from a critic, but was ascribed to John Hurt and Michael Bryant, and was often quoted by Hordern himself: see the Times obit, 4 May 1995, p. 23.
    • ...to do. Cassianto^Talk 20:01, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Now done. Cassianto^Talk 12:10, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• Lead
  • I'd be inclined to dodge the "probably" as it isn't specifically backed up in the main text. Perhaps just "He is known for…"
    • I take it you mean "perhaps" here? Deleted. Cassianto^Talk 19:49, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
  • He was further educated at Brighton College – reads a little oddly. Perhaps "He went on to Brighton College"?
    • Changed. Cassianto^Talk 19:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Knighted – I think the most helpful link for this is to Knight Bachelor.
    • Switched. Cassianto^Talk 19:25, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

That's all from me. @Brianboulton: – Brian, over to you. Tim riley talk 10:38, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• Much obliged Tim. All carried out and I'm hugely in your debt for taking the time to offer these excellent points. Could you confirm if you're satisfied that all have been addressed as I know you and I spoke about some being missing. Cassianto^Talk 19:49, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Comments from JM

• "Kingsley Amis's Ending Up" Was the screenplay by Amis, or just the original novel? Also, is this worth a link? If it's notable, don't be scared of redlinking.
  • Redlinks don't scare me, I just have an OCD around having them in featured articles. Amis was the writer of the novel. but I've removed it from the lead, as I don't think it's lead worthy. Cassianto^Talk 02:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• "Milk of Magnesia" Why the caps?
  • Good point; changed. Cassianto^Talk 02:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• "In his spare time, he joined an amateur dramatics company." Presumably it wasn't the joining that filled his spare time!
  • Changed to: "He joined an amateur dramatics company and in his spare time, rehearsed for the company's only play, Ritzio's Boots, which was entered into a British Drama League competition, with Hordern in the title role.
• "proceedings expenses" Apostrophe?
  • Oh good spot. I was waiting for someone to pick up on that! ;) Cassianto^Talk 02:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• "paid £2.10s a" Are you not muddling old and new money here? That would be written "paid £2 10s a" or "paid £2/10/- a", wouldn't it?
• "One such piece was Stella Gibbons's Cold Comfort Farm" An adaptation of, surely?
  • Naturally, changed. Cassianto^Talk 02:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• Something's gone wrong with the quotes in the second para of "The Old Vic"
  • Another good spot! Cassianto^Talk 02:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• "The play was cursed with bad luck" I hate to say it, but... a bit literary.
  • Could you elaborate on this a little bit? Cassianto^Talk 00:03, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• "With the experience of Nina still obvious in his mind, Hordern took a break from the stage and concentrate on his film career." This sentence is all over the place
  • Reworded to: "With the experience of Nina still obvious in his mind, Hordern took a break from the stage and decided to concentrate on his film career."
• "Roman philosopher Cicero" Can I suggest "orator"? I think it better captures who Cicero was.
  • Of course, done. Cassianto^Talk 02:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
• "the theatrical critic" Wouldn't that be "the theatre critic"? A theatrical critic would perhaps be someone who criticises while overreacting.
  • Yes, I see that. Changed. Cassianto^Talk 02:25, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Enough for now; a great read so far! Josh Milburn (talk) 19:17, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

A few more:

• The first two sentences of the "Stripwell" section have semi-colons. Also, the "they" who reconciled is ambiguous.
  • I don't think there is anything wrong with the semi-colons here, but I'm willing to be educated. The ambiguity has been fixed. Cassianto^Talk 00:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I should have been clearer- I don't think there's anything wrong with them as such, but I think two sentences in a row with them doesn't read as well as it could. If you're happy with them, though, I am. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:17, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
      • Thanks, I've looked again and think we could lose the first one. Done. Cassianto^Talk 08:23, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• "could not differentiate his enjoyment between comedy and drama" I'm struggling with this
  • I have inadvertently fixed this while addressing another comment. Cassianto^Talk 00:03, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• I think you're missing a quotemark in the "Return to Stratford-upon-Avon" section
  • Caught, thanks. Cassianto^Talk 00:15, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• "in Kingsley Amis's Ending Up" Again- an adaptation of, surely?
  • Done. Cassianto^Talk 00:27, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
• "After that he took the part of Godfrey Colston in Memento Mori,[182] a play about succumbing to old age, which was adapted for television from the Muriel Spark novel of the same name." I'm not clear on this- was this a play, a TV series or a TV film?
  • Television film, done. Cassianto^Talk 00:27, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I've been copyediting as I go- please double-check. A very strong article. Josh Milburn (talk) 20:40, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Your copy edits looked good to me and I'm very grateful to you for taking part. Please check to see if you're happy with everything. Cassianto^Talk 00:27, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Image review from SNUGGUMS

• File:Michael Hordern, 1970.jpg has an appropriate FUR

Thank you. Cassianto^Talk 08:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• I will assume good faith with the licensing for File:The Poplars Berkhamsted.jpg, File:Windlesham House School - geograph.org.uk - 1424129.jpg, and File:070522 ukbris ch01.jpg though am not really sure how beneficial they are to use

Glad to know you're assuming good faith, thanks? I'm curious to think that you don't consider his birthplace to be a benefit to the article? I would say that it very much relevant, especially seeing as there is a blue plaque commemorating him at the site. Cassianto^Talk 08:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• I tend to say pics of locations are better for their main articles, and it would be better to have a pic of Hordern himself in place for a bio (perhaps during his childhood), though it might help to include a pic with emphasis on the plaque itself. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• File:HMS ILLUSTRIOUS, 1940. FL2425.jpg is properly licensed, though how does it benefit the article?

Again, Illustious is very much relevant as Hordern spent the entire duration of the war on it as a commissioned officer. Illustrious is perhaps the most famous warship this country has had. It's not everyday someone can claim to have served on it. Cassianto^Talk 08:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

In that case, I would include that in its caption Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Good point, switched to: "HMS Illustrious, upon which Hordern served during the Second World War". Thanks. Cassianto^Talk 01:47, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• Not sure if File:Sir Michael Redgrave portrait.jpg or File:Rex Harrison Allan Warren.jpg can be claimed as own work

Allan Warren is a respected photographer and has provided the encyclopedia with some of the best images of some of the best actors and performers. I've used his images on several occasions. An example of his kindly donated pictures include Peter Sellers, Gracie Fields, Stanley Holloway, and Laurence Olivier. See here for further details on him. Cassianto^Talk 08:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• File:Coral Browne in 1931.jpg is properly licensed

Thank you. Cassianto^Talk 08:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• I will assume good faith with File:Dirk Bogarde Hallmark Hall of Fame.JPG

Your assumption of good faith is all well and good, but what does it actually mean? It tells me nothing about the legalities of the licensing. Cassianto^Talk 08:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

• It claims not to have any copyright and was published between 1923 and 1977, so in this case it means I trust it is properly licensed since I can't find any copyright issues or claims of original ownership

• File:Playbill for Moonbirds on Broadway 1959.jpg and File:Cleopatra poster.jpg are properly licensed, though I don't think either of them really benefit the article
  • Comment - Hordern is pictured on the Playbill cover. Pictures of actors in their stage roles are few and far between on WikiP and that is a bummer. He isn't on the Cleopatra poster so I am not sure that it adds to a readers understanding of MH. MarnetteD|Talk 23:29, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• I see you uploaded File:Michael Hordern bronze bust.jpeg and File:Michael Hordern plaque.jpeg yourself as your own work, and will also assume good faith with them

I did indeed. I intend to take a better picture of the bust in the coming weeks. I was unable to get a decent one as the Hordern Room is currently under renovation. Cassianto^Talk 08:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

That's all from me. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:09, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts, but I'd like you to clarify what "I'll assume good faith with these" is supposed to mean? I'd also be interested to hear your counter argument in terms of the appropriateness of the images I've used. A lot of these images are appropriately licensed and their use, as long as it's relevent to the text, does not have to be heavily justified. You also seem to be on the side of "no images are better" rather than to the contrary. This puzzles me further as images visually improve an article and do an excellent job in illustrating the text at which they sit next to. -- Cassianto^Talk 08:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC) Cassianto^Talk 08:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Happy to help. See my above replies. It isn't so much of a "no images are better" thing for me as it is "try to focus on article topic by including photos of subject itself where possible". Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:33, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Seems like this PR has been open ages now! Looks ready to run FAC to me.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:54, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Not yet, I still have Josh's review to complete. Cassianto^Talk 23:54, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Didn't even see Josh's name, got smothered by Snuggum's review!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:18, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Closing note

• All points have now been addressed and I'd like to thank you all very much for taking part and for making the article much stronger. Cassianto^Talk 16:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)