Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 April 28

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April 28

College

In Toronto, there some high schools whose graduauting want to the college that is nearby from their home. So far, I know that the Centennial College-Progress Campus have students who graduated from Woburn C.I. and Cedarbrae C.I. What about a college for graduating students of West Humber, North Albion, Kipling, East York, Marc Garneau, Georges Henry, and Victoria Park C.I.? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.95.73 (talk) 01:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

We have an article titled Education in Toronto which lists Universities and Colleges within Toronto. It doesn't have them listed exactly by street address, but a little poking around and you could likely figure out which schools meet your geographical requirements. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

...and for Pete's sake don't make geographical location your only consideration when choosing a college. Make sure you;ve thought carefully about the course you will be studying and find out which college teaches it well. It will be worth the extra ten minutes on the bus. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:39, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Board of directors question

Let's say this teenager has a great idea that can earn millions of dollars. What are the chances of using his idea to be elected onto the board of directors of a major corporation? In other words, what is a minor's chances of being elected to a board of directors of a corporation? Thanks for answering. --Under22Entreprenuer (talk) 02:36, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Being elected to a board of directors requires convincing the shareholders of the company to do that. So, regardless of your age, the shareholders need to be convinced that you have the experience, wherewithal, and know-how to be able to lead the company they own in such a way as to make them more money. Having a cool idea is unlikely to do that.--Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Ideas are cheap. Every idiot has a couple of great ideas. Execution and actually making the millions of dollars is hard. Once the teenager has done the latter then he can go and serve on various boards, if that's the kind of thing he's into. Tempshill (talk) 05:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Too late. You missed the Dot-com bubble. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The Board of Directors as a whole doesn't manage the company: the company management (some of whom might also serve on the Board of Direcotrs) does. The best way to pitch your idea to a company is probably not to go straight for a director's seat - if the company management doesn't like your idea, no-body will be there to implement it, and you will be out-voted by the rest of the board. You probably want to concentrate on convincing the company management that you have a great idea first. They might buy the idea off you for a handsome fee, or hire you as an employee or a consultant. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

What kind of idea are we talking about? If it is a business idea, then the board of a company is an option (although it would have to be an extremely good idea that everyone can understand well enough to realise how good it is but only you can understand well enough to actually implement it), if it is more of a product idea (an invention) then you won't get on a board with it (unless you start your own company). There is no reason to put inventors on a board, the skillset required to be a good board member is all about business skills, not inventing skills (you do need a diverse board, so someone with some knowledge of inventing would be good, but not just someone that's had one excellent idea, it is experience that matters - experience of taking multiple new inventions from the drawing board all the way to market, for example). --Tango (talk) 11:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Where to search online for legal precedents

Anyone know any websites where I can search online for legal precedents for the USA? I've looked quite a bit and can't find anything. Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 05:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Some more background is needed. Are you looking for prior judicial decisions regarding a particular topic? Tempshill (talk) 05:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Many law schools give their students free access to subscription sites like Westlaw and Lexisnexis Butterworths. Statute law could be found in the US Code. If there isn't any US authority on something, they would likely adopt the nearest equivalent from another common law jurisdiction, like Canada or England - in which case the BAILII is a free (as in free beer) resource, without subscription.78.33.187.178 (talk) 08:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Austlii for Australian resources, Worldlii for general international resources. Not familiar with free US sources but I believe Findlaw.com is for free? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Tempshill, I am looking for them from the USA. PalaceGuard008, findlaw just has tutorials, but no way to search precedents. Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 08:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure? Could've sworn I was reading Feist v Rural Telephone Service Co via FindLaw just then... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Exact URL? Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 12:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=499&invol=340, which is linked at the bottom of Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service. Many of the leading Supreme Court cases have articles, and I expect that most of them have the text of the decision linked. Nyttend (talk) 12:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Cities in Guangdong

As I research century-ago missionaries in China's Guangdong province, I've been frustrated by the changes in spelling since that time. Can anyone guess the modern name of a place long spelled "Lin Taan" in English? It wasn't too far from Tak Hing, now spelled "Deqing", in the Guangzhou area (map here). Please note that this is not the same place as Deqing; de.wp has an article about this city, as do several other languages, but we don't. Tak Hing is recorded as being along the West River (not sure what the current name is, but the modern city is obviously along a major river), while "Lin Taan" is given as being about 20 miles southwest of Tak Hing along a West River tributary. I expect that it's still in existence, as my 1905 source says that "Lin Taan" (also spelled "Lin Tan") was larger at that time than Tak Hing. Ask me more specific questions and I'll do my best to reply. Nyttend (talk) 12:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I looked over that map (in map form, not satellite, as the map form has the Chinese names) and followed the directions you gave, but couldn't find any cities with that name. However, this site seems to suggest that there is a place in Guangdong actually called Lin Tan to this date. Hope this is helpful.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

This map shows a place named Liantan not far SSW of Deqing. I'll wager that's your "Lin Tan." (I can't read Chinese; perhaps KageTora or someone else who can will see what Google Maps has at that location.) Deor (talk) 15:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, looks good. Strengthening the idea of this being it is the presence of Luoding farther upriver: while Tak Hing was the center of this mission effort, the second largest center was Lo Ting, so it would be altogether reasonable for another mission station to be located in the middle. Nyttend (talk) 16:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

On a side note, it's not just a change in spelling, it is the fact that the missionaries in Guangdong were using the local Chinese dialect names for the place, the local Chinese dialect being Cantonese, of course. Now, official names for places are all transliterated according to their Mandarin pronunciation, even though the local people would still use their own pronunciation for these places, just as they use their own dialect in daily life. Hence the apparent change from 'Tak Hing' to 'DeQing'. The actual Chinese characters remain the same, and 'LianTan' would change nicely into Cantonese from Mandarin as 'LinTan', according to phonetic rules.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 16:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the further explanation! I had assumed that it was just a Wade-Giles/pinyin transliteration issue. Nyttend (talk) 18:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

No, that only happens with Mandarin. As I said, the missionaries in the local areas of southern China used local pronunciations when transliterating place names, just as we say Hong Kong (from Cantonese 'Heong Gong) instead of Mandarin (the Northern and now national dialect) 'Xiang Gang'. The Wade/Giles vs. pinyin problem only really arises when you go further north in that period, e.g. Tien Ts'in vs. Tianjin and the like. --KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 19:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

It is also a change in fashion, and some say in the actual language (consonant shift) between the W-G era or the pinyin era. It is also the result of a shift between the main foreign language of contact (Portuguese, Spanish, French) to English, thus causing names to be spelled in a way that's more "English" than before.

Guangdong, whether in Cantonese or in Mandarin, or any other Chinese dialect, is not pronounced anything like "Canton"; and the same goes, to a lesser extent, for Hong Kong.

You'll probably find the same effect when reading about Chinese place names in sources from as recently as 60 years ago. For example, the Siccawei district in Shanghai is now the (very differently spelled) Xujiahui due to the change to Mandarin spelling. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

One of my Chinese friends did a little research for me, and found this on Google Maps China.--KageTora (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 17:31, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Torture?

If you know that a detainee knows something (a password or whatever) and you deny him food unless he reveals this piece of information, is that torture? Anyway, you will feed him if he cooperates, and he can do it easily.--80.58.205.37 (talk) 15:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Torture comes under many definitions, however under many common definitions of the term, any use of physical coersion; whether it is active, such as causing pain by direct action, or passive, such as denying basic needs like food, water, or sleep, is clearly torture. The ends of the torture do not redefine it in any way; it is not what the torturee does which makes it such, it is what the torturer does. There is also serious academic questions about the reliability of information gained via torture. Academic studies have been done on the matter, and the usual results is that torture victims are more likely to lie outright to end the torture than to give up any useful information. In fact, the knowledge that the victim has information is itself often an unknown, making torture as a means of extracting any such information questionable. Rarely are people who are captured known to know somthing which the captors themselves know he knows but also don't know what he knows. Even more problematic is that information often changes rapidly. Even if a detainee used to, for example, know the information on the whereabouts of a critical enemy leader, that leader is not very likely to be at that location for long enough to make that information useful to the interrigators. Even if true at some point in time, it may no longer be true once the information is extracted. All of this puts serious doubts into the trade-off in giving up moral capital in exchange for a small chance of getting a nugget of information which may or may not be reliable in any way. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 15:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

(E/c):From the first sentence of Torture: "Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is: 'any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a male or female person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession...'" Yes, starving someone to coerce information would be considered torture. Livewireo (talk) 15:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I still don't get it: what does "intentionally inflicted" mean? IN the situation that I described, it was more of a passive attitude towards the detainee. Just kind of: ask me for food when you want to, just give me the password.--80.58.205.37 (talk) 16:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

If you're interrogating him and accidentally step on his toe under the table because you can't see his foot, that's not intentional, so it's not torture. Probably there's a more in-depth reason than this, but this is a way that I can imagine physical pain not counting as torture under this definition. Nyttend (talk) 16:06, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

If you lock any creature (human included) in a cage and deny it food it will suffer and then die. That's hardly a passive thing to do. --Sean 17:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

You are depriving them of food specifically in order to cause them suffering (so that they will choose to tell you the information rather than continue to endure the suffering). That makes it intentional. --Tango (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The "detainee" (which already means the subject is being detained and is not free to go) is being forced to trade information to end his suffering. You, the detainer, control his food supply and are refusing to give him any until your demands are met. This isn't a very "passive attitude." Livewireo (talk) 17:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

What I don't get in the text cited above: "...on a male or female person..." What were they thinking with such wording? Specifying [a human being to be of] one or another of these two particular genders? Not applicable to otherwise nonhuman life forms? -- Deborahjay (talk) 21:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Well maybe they wanted to exclude intersex inviduals? :-P (No offence intended to intersex individuals.) Actually I looked at the source and the words male or female aren't used so I've revised the article. Feeling sleepy so can't be bothered finding who added it (that version only seems to appear in a few places so I'm guessing it originated from us) but I have a hunch someone was pissed that it used the male pronoun and so added the male and female part to try and help. Or perhaps they added he/she as well but someone removed that but didn't notice the male and female. Edit: Looks like I was probably right [1] Nil Einne (talk) 00:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

What is classified as torture is going to vary according to culture. Detainment in a jail in a foreign country would probably be considered as torture to most American criminals. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Though if you ask most American citizens about internment in American jails, they'd find a lot of condoned torture too (a tolerated atmosphere of prisoner-on-prisoner violence, guard-on-prisoner violence, racial gangs, solitary confinement, a basic expectation of some degree of male-on-male rape... the US penitentiary system does not exactly have a sterling reputation). --140.247.251.93 (talk) 20:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

While not encyclopedic, have you ever seen the representation of the prison in China in Batman Begins? Gobs worse then Shawshank Redemption, even if you are Andy. 65.121.141.34 (talk) 20:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

to 80:58 (OP): A better example would be "If you know that a detainee knows something (a password or whatever) and that he is a heavy smoker and you deny him cigarettes unless he reveals this piece of information, is that torture? Anyway, you will give him cigarettes him if he cooperates, and he can do it easily." In this case the answer is NO, it is not torture, even if you know he is a heavy smoker. That's because cigarettes are not something you are required to furnish detainees with: unlike sleep, food and water, basic medical care if applicable, etc. Look it up. Detainees are not rocks, and they have rights to basic needs. 79.122.100.220 (talk) 13:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In the context of Northern Ireland an interesting thing that came out was that admission of guilt by those convicted of terrorist offences should have been considered as evidence the person was not guilty of the crime if you work out the probabilities. So much for getting terrorists to spill the beans. It would be a bit hard on those who really are not guilt and protest their innocence if one actually used this though I guess! Dmcq (talk) 19:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Painters/artists with the last name Seaman

Hello all. I recently acquired an oil on canvas painting of a clipper ship (I think that the style of ship) navigating rough seas. In the lower right hand corner, the painting is signed in all caps with “SEAMAN,” which I’m assuming is the artist’s last name. The painting is probably 15-20 years old.

I’m trying to identify the artist and the exact subject (which I know will probably be difficult). Would anyone happen to have any ideas? I can upload a picture of the painting if that would be helpful.

I’ve been looking for artists with the last name of Seaman. I’ve identified Drake Seaman, Richard Seaman and Rosemarie Seaman. I don’t think it’s a Drake painting because his subjects tend to be southwestern US subjects (cowboys, desert landscapes, etc) plus he signs “D. SEAMAN” (my painting does not have a “D” first initial). I’m sure it’s not Richard and Rosemarie because their primary medium is photography.

Any ideas?

Thanks!! Rangermike (talk) 16:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

A quick google search turned up another likely candidate. Sam Seaman. Do some more searches under this names, and you may find the same, or similar, paintings. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 00:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

And apparently there is a painter named Richard Seaman also, maybe not the same one you found above. See: http://undermybrush.com/ . --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

And a Bill Seaman. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

And Camile Seaman. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Three more, two last names and a first name: Kara Seaman, and Seaman Schepps and James Seaman. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

And John Seaman and Abraham Seaman and Julian Seaman and Albert Seaman and Joel Seaman and Emmie Seaman and Renee Seaman and George Seaman and Yasmin Seaman and Christ Seaman. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

WOW! quite a list. I appreciate your research. Unfortunately, as best as I could tell, none of the artists you listed painted my particular picture. THANKS for your efforts! Rangermike (talk) 13:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you can do a Google Image search using the terms "Seaman" and "painting" and "clipper" or "clipper ship" or "seas" or "rough seas" or "stormy seas" or some other descriptive term that seems appropriate, and see if anything matches the style of your painting or perhaps is an exact match. Bus stop (talk) 13:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Pork law

I've always been curious about the enforcement of Islamic dietary laws. In countries governed by Sharia law, such as Saudi Arabia, what is the actual, practical legal status of haraam foodstuffs? Is pork treated like a controlled substance? Or is it just very heavily taxed? Is it possible to acquire it on the black market? Is it legal to raise pigs, provided that you export the meat to non-Muslim countries? Is it legal to have a pig as a pet, and if so, how can they keep you from eating it? LANTZY^TALK 23:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

This source [2] (not the greatest of sources I'll grant) says you need a Halal certification to import food in to Saudi Arabia so pork is obviously out. Also many Muslims regard pigs as unclean in more then dietary terms so are unlikely to want to raise them for meat yet alone as a pet (the pig in particular more so then other animals forbidden under their dietary laws). To give examples of what I mean, in Malay, the word for pig, 'babi' is commonly used in a variety of derogatory ways (not like pig headed or pig as in gluton but more generally). In Malaysia (which only has Sharia law for Muslims), non halal products (primarily pork and other pig derived meats) are sold in a seperate section and are usually well packaged before being given to you. Some supermarkets may include seperate checkouts as part of this (or as part of the normal checkout counters) and in others it's not uncommon if the checkout operator is a Muslim they will wear gloves or plastic bags before handling non halal products. Of course out of courtesy many will just scan/handle the item themselves if the operator looks Malay Nil Einne (talk) 00:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Pork is "obviously out" if you're a law abiding meat importer, but I think our friend Lantzy here is looking to smuggle some swine, and is wondering what the practical, actual situation is in Saudi Arabia. I'd advise against, this, by the way. Tempshill (talk) 00:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Lantzy said anything about actually wanting to do this... Sometimes people can be intellectually curious without wanting to engage in any criminal activities... --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Tempshill, I'm a far less interesting person than you give me credit for. I don't propose to wrap the Kaaba in hickory bacon. I wouldn't even smuggle pork into Germany. My curiosity is idle. LANTZY^TALK 02:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

You can't fool us, Swine Smuggler! APL (talk) 13:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

You swine smuggling swine! --Tango (talk) 06:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Egypt, which sort of has Sharia law but sort of doesn't, has plenty of pigs, or at least it did until today...but of course it also has lots of Christians too. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Sarah Onyango Obama

What is Obama's black g-ma's birthdate/year. Is it 1921 or 1922. [3] From this site was update at December 2008, and Sarah H. Onyango was 87. Is her b-day winter 1921 or january 1922? Another site update in January 2008 and Sarah H. O. was 86.--69.229.38.152 (talk) 23:40, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Without answering the question, are you sure they had proper birth records at the time and place (some village in Kenya I'm guessing) she was born? If not, it's easily possible no one now really knows precisely when she was born, this isn't uncommon and if it was near the end of the year/begining of the next, not knowing the year isn't that surprising. Of course Kenya straddles the equator and doesn't really have a winter and what they do sometimes call winter is more or less during the Southern Hemisphere winter [4] but I'm guessing the source was thinking of the Northern hemisphere winter season Nil Einne (talk) 00:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

• [5] This site was post on January 10, 2008. At this time she was 86. When I say "winter" or "winter fall" I should've said I meant if it is that Sarah H. Onyango was born in 1921 then it's between October and December. Oops, I forgot about hemisphere switch I know Kenya was south of equator. Our article said 1922 without any citations.--69.229.38.152 (talk) 02:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
• I suppose her birthdate is 9 January 1922 [6]. At 10 jaunary 2009, she turn 87, unless if Kenya have their own calendar, like Chinese New Year.--69.229.172.22 (talk) 22:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)