Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 June 25

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June 25

European reaction to end of Ming Dynasty

How did Europe and the Western world react to the fall of the Ming Dynasty in 1644? I know exploration hadn't jump started yet by that time but the Russian, Portuguese, Dutch and Spanish had already reached areas around China and some Europeans were directly trading with China in some of their ports, along with the presence of missionaries. Europeans must have found it surprising simply by the change of dress and hairstyle impose by the Manchus in the intervening decades.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 06:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Not too sure what you mean by saying "exploration hadn't jumpstarted yet by that time"; if you look at a ca. 1644 map, most significant land areas are filled in, other than northwestern north America, northeastern Siberia, and Australia (and of course Antarctica)... AnonMoos (talk) 11:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The Jesuits were also well-established in China in 1644 and were affected by the change in dynasty. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:51, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

That was my attempt at keeping the question on topic (I see it hasn't worked). So someone doesn't simply say, they probably didn't know about it. Yeah I know about the explorers, traders, and missionaries; I stated them in my question.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 12:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

One would have thought that it would have affected the manufacture of silk cloth which was an important industry in France and increasingly in London with the arrival of the Huguenot weavers. Nearly all silk must have come overland from China via the Silk Road. But I've failed to find a reference that supports my theory. Alansplodge (talk) 17:23, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Silk production started in the Christian world when some itinerant monks brought some silkworms to the Emperor Justinian (or that's the story). And the whole point of sailing around the bottom of Africa (and later South America) was to cut out the middlemen. See Spitalfield Riots for what Wikipedia seems to have on the silk industry in England. I would tend to doubt whether much silk intended for use in Europe was being carried over central Asian land routes in 1644... AnonMoos (talk) 19:52, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You're quite right - I've just read my own limk; "The Silk Road stopped serving as a shipping route for silk around 1400.[citation needed]". However, silk thread used by European weavers must surely have been imported from China (by whayever means). If not, then where was it being made? Alansplodge (talk) 00:31, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Anywhere where there were mulberry trees, a semi-reasonable climate, and people with the ability to handle silkworms. What Wikipedia has on this is Silk#Medieval_and_modern_Europe. I'm not sure why unprocessed silk would have made up a large percentage of the China trade -- transportation costs would have eaten into the profits for a raw-materials commodity which was also then made in Europe. If silk was still exported from China to Europe, it seems much more likely to me that it would be high-value finished textiles by highly-skilled Chinese craftsmen... AnonMoos (talk) 01:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

See also, the galleon trade. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that if trade was affected, perhaps the good that was most hit was tea, though I don't know how prevalent tea consumption in Europe was when the Ming dynasty fell. Though, in the 19th century, Britain fought two wars with China, the simplified version of history goes, to be able to buy tea (and pay for it, not with silver, but opium, hence the name of the wars - the Opium Wars). V85 (talk) 22:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

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QE2LS -- Probably the answer is that if you were someone whose colonial, mercantile, or missionary interests were directly or indirectly affected by the dynastic change (such as the Dutch who were expelled from Taiwan by Koxinga), then you welcomed or deplored the change accordingly; however, to most people in Europe without such overseas interests, China would have seemed exceedingly remote and irrelevant to their lives and daily concerns. The fad for Chinoiserie and Chinese exotica didn't really catch on in a big way until the 18th century... AnonMoos (talk) 01:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Tobacco auctions

Tobacco auction is unfortunately a redlink, as I recently came across this interesting youtube clip with archive footage from 1953 of an auction in progress and I'd be interested to know more about this phenomenon. Why did the auctioneers use this lightning fast, singsong tone? And when, and why, did the auctions die out? --Viennese Waltz 14:16, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not just that type of auction, that "showboating" was common at other auctions, too. I imagine it's to relieve the incredible boredom of having to sell the same product over and over again. As for why they died out, it's most likely due to large conglomerates owning their own tobacco farms, or having long term contracts with those who do (however, I believe some tobacco auctions do still take place, but online bidding may replace live auctions). StuRat (talk) 14:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The auctioneer's chant is a way to fill time and sustain excitement during the auction. At one time there were schools to teach auctioneering. I assume they've all died out now.

I was unaware that tobacco is mostly not auctioned anymore, although there are a few tobacco warehouses, in Kentucky and perhaps elsewhere, that still hold auctions (live auctions, I would assume, since buyers would want to be present anyway to examine the tobacco). According to this article, most farmers now have contracts with tobacco companies, and independent auction houses dwindled since the 2004 federal tobacco buyout and the loss of price supports, but there are still auctions in Danville, Lexington, Mount Sterling, and Maysville. John M Baker (talk) 15:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty much the standard way of auctioning in the US. My wife and I were surprised the first time we saw a British auction and saw how sedate the auctioneer was. It's quite different. Dismas|^(talk) 15:51, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

In the antiques saleroom maybe, but at British agricultural markets, the auctioneers use a similar, (though maybe not as stylised) chant. See Breeding Sheep Sale, Abergavenny, Monmouthshire, South Wales. It seems unlikely to me that this stems from American influence and more likely to be the other way about. We have an article; Auction chant which only describes US usage. Alansplodge (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

And that article links to auction school, so apparently those schools are still around. I gather that there used to be a Lucky Strike commercial, ending with the words "Sold, American," that gave a sample tobacco auction chant to people not involved in the tobacco business. There must be a version of it online somewhere, although I don't know where. However, if you listen to the 1950s song, The Auctioneer, which has an auction chant in a non-tobacco context, you'll notice that they aren't really that different. John M Baker (talk) 20:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

That's the commercial I linked to in the question. --Viennese Waltz 21:23, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm just going to pile on here, but that form of auctioning is very much still alive, and I assume the schools that teach it are too. It's very common in agricultural auctions of any sort but even things like car auctions still do that. The only live auctions I've seen that don't sound like that are things like art auctions. Shadowjams (talk) 21:53, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

There's a current U.S. TV show called Auction Kings. If you go to 4:30 of this excerpt, you can hear how one of today's auctioneers does it. (I think that they have to tone it down a bit at auctions like this, where most of the bidders aren't professional buyers.) Deor (talk) 23:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the OP link is a version of the famous Lucky Strike commercial, although the radio version of the commercial is better-known. My bad, I should have checked. Note that part of the commercial's appeal is that the auction chant even then would not have been familiar to most listeners who did not live in farming areas. The Auctioneer song is available with lyrics on Youtube and seems to be a pretty accurate portrayal of agricultural auctions at the time (and perhaps even today), with the possible exception of the auctioneer becoming so successful that he had to buy his own plane. John M Baker (talk) 23:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Green grocers in agricultural markets in Australia (both commercial and retail) use highly stylised selling cries, and such conduct trickled towards retail fruiterers, while such small retail fruiterers existed as a predominant form of retailing fruit and vegetables (cf: Mark Mitchell (actor)'s character Con the fruiterer, let it sink it, give it a coupla days, bewdiful.). Fifelfoo (talk) 02:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Which European parties call for the (re)introduction of capital punishment?

The only one I've been aware of so far is Germany's NPD, but I wasn't concerned with the topic yet. Are there non-extremist or probably more influential ones as well? My immediate guess would've been that you'd rather find those in the former Eastern Bloc countries, where the abolition doesn't date back that long. --Michael Fleischhacker (talk) 17:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The British National Party favors reintroduction of the death penalty (from their website). There's also some small conservative Christian parties, such as the Scottish Christian Party (source) and the (Dutch) Reformed Political Party. The death penalty is still legal in Belarus, and in 2006, Polish president Lech Kaczynski called on the EU members to bring it back. - Lindert (talk) 17:41, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

The Front National (France) has also campaigned for the reintroduction of capital punishment, but I'm not sure if that's an official platform or just Le Pen's opinion.Although FN isn't exactly non-extremist... eldamorie (talk) 18:19, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I think that there might also be a difference between what parties officially have in their programmes, and what the people who vote for those parties support. I imagine that right-wing 'tough on crime' parties who advocate harsher penalties for crime will be reluctant to call for the introduction of the capital punishment, as it isn't very PC, but that the people who vote for such parties might support the capital punishment to a larger extent than the population at large. So that while the proportion of the general population that supports the death penalty might only be 10%, of those who support such parties, might be significantly higher. However, it's not uttered aloud in polite conversation, and it would take some time for such a view to be taken seriously in public discourse. V85 (talk) 05:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Both the 'mainstream' right-wing Fidesz and the neo-fascist Jobbik favor the reintroduction of the death penalty in Hungary. ([1])Additionally, which countries qualify in this discussion as being 'European'? Are we talking about inside the EU or continental and cultural Europe?

Sex Offender Laws

Within the United States, what states require a sex offender to have his status listed on his/her identification card/driver's license? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whodat6209 (talk • contribs) 17:26, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

To be frank, just about all of them. 72.235.221.120 (talk) 01:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

To be earnest, Sex offender registration doesn't have a list, it only has discussion about court cases and such, but it might be a good starting point for the OP's research. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Is it true lawyers can fish for defamation in the UK like ambulance-chasers in the US?

I'm not in the UK and this is purely a philosophical question (doesn't affect me in the slightest). But is true that in the UK lawyers (or barristers sorry I don't know the distinction) can try to personally sue someone for defamation over comments on e.g. a small site, much the way in the US a lawyer can be said to be an "ambulance-chaser" and try to work on contingency in wrongful-accident cases?

Thanks if anyone knows anything about this! --80.99.254.208 (talk) 19:03, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You might want to review libel tourism.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Neither libel lawyers in the UK, or medical malpractice lawyers in the US, can personally sue someone. The party that has been harmed by it has to sue them, with the lawyer representing them. You have to have legal standing in order to sue, which means you have to actually be connected to the case. The most common "no win, no fee" lawsuits in the UK are personal accident claims (it sometimes feels like every third advert on TV is asking you if you've had an accident at work in the last five years). --Tango (talk) 19:16, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

When discussing law in the UK, I think it's important to remember that the UK has three separate legal systems: English law (which applies in England and Wales), Scots law, and Northern Ireland law. It is English law that is notorious for its defamation laws. As lawyer explains, in England and Wales, "lawyer" is a broad term that covers barristers, solicitors, and others. There is a blog post here that talks about how difficult it is to estimate the number of defamation cases, but I wouldn't have guessed that they are anywhere near as common as injury claims. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 21:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

In England, just like in the USA, if someone defames you on a small website, you can sue them. English law allows such suits to be taken on by lawyers on a conditional fee basis. --Colapeninsula (talk) 16:36, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Synopses of pre-20th century fiction

I often download old novels (usually from Project Gutenberg) and save them in a database (Calibre) along with their book cover images and a synopsis. Finding a synopsis is frequently a major problem. I usually need to do extensive web searches. I've found only one site with a good collection of synopeses (www.fantasticfiction.co.uk) but that one is far from complete. If you know of any similar sites, I'd be most grateful for any leads. Likewise, I'd like to find some sites with extensive collections of cover images for old novels. 66.91.48.101 (talk) 23:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

What are we? Chopped liver? Clarityfiend (talk) 00:36, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia has plenty of articles on novels which describe some main characteristics of the book without giving much plot synopsis as such (I've written several such articles). AnonMoos (talk) 01:43, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

It's sad that any serious user should have to contend with responses like that of Clarityfiend: uninformative and discourteous. AnonMoos, on the other hand, was helpful. Although I have long used Wikipedia and have found many useful synopses, I've still failed to find many I needed. I'm looking to add to my collection of sites to search. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.48.101 (talk) 02:21, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Ironically, both comments are really the same answer and the same level of usefulness - just stated differently. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you just browsing for synopses, or are you looking for synopses on specific titles? abebooks.com might help you, and perhaps even amazon, if you're particularly looking for the synopses of specific titles. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 03:54, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

69.62.243.48: My database Calibre is set to automatically search Amazon, Fantastic Fiction, and Google, and can be set for 5 others. This is done when I add new ebooks. I find that Amazon is generally more helpful than Abebooks. Thanks for your ideas. 66.91.48.101 (talk) 04:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

If you can read French, Bibliopoche [2] is worth checking out. --Xuxl (talk) 09:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)