Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2013 August 29

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August 29

Masoud Barzani in the 1990s

Was Masoud Barzani travelling internationally in 1993? I have a picture of a Kurdish delegation (including Jalal Talabani) meeting with senior US congressmen in May 1993; one of them looks like Barzani, but he has considerably more forehead-covering hair than in this photo. Has his hairline receded since then? I can't find any online pictures of him from that era. 2001:18E8:2:1020:81D0:BA98:6347:210A (talk) 15:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

And while you're at it, can you find a picture of Ahmed Chalabi from the same time? The image's handwritten caption mentions a "Chalabi Kurdish Leader", but there's nobody that looks like File:Chalabi.jpg. 2001:18E8:2:1020:81D0:BA98:6347:210A (talk) 15:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Re: Chalabi: Are you willing to consider offline sources? The Los Angeles Times ran a feature on Chalabi on July 19, 1994 [1] which undoubtably has a pic if you can locate a microfilm etc version. Many online archives are text-only for that far back. 184.147.119.141 (talk) 21:04, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Who decided he/she owned all the swans?

In the article Keeper of the Queen's Swans it says that the Keeper position was instituted in the 13th century. In the article Swan Upping is says that "Traditionally, the Monarch of the United Kingdom retains the right to ownership of all unmarked mute swans in open water, but only exercises ownership on certain stretches of the River Thames and its surrounding tributaries. This dates from the 12th century, during which time swans were a common food source for royalty."

Who was this monarch that decided that all unmarked mute swans in open water belonged to the crown? There were a number of monarchs across the 12th and 13th centuries. And who was it that first created the office of Keeper of the Swans? Clearly these were two different monarchs. Fieari (talk) 19:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is a history of Swan Upping, which doesn't say which monarchs, but it does give a date for the Keeper of the Swans - 1378, which puts it in the reign of Richard II. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:24, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Fantastic! That tells me who created the office of Keeper. Now, again according to the Swan Upping article, the tradition of owning all the swans was going on for at least a century or two before the office was created. So who started that tradition? Fieari (talk) 20:59, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I keep seeing the date 1186, based on this research which would make Henry II or an earlier king your culprit. 184.147.119.141 (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

It may just mean "since time immemorial" which according to our article, started on 6 July 1189. Alansplodge (talk) 21:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

This accounts for that scene in "The Tudors" in which Henry VIII sees a couple of swans swimming around and the next thing you know it's being served to him on a platter. Yuch. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:27, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Why yuch? How is that different from eating lambs or pigs or chickens or cows or turkeys or fish or crabs or oysters? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not used to eating animals that still have heads and feathers attached. Though now that I think of it, maybe it was that he was eating the gooey cooked part with his bare hands, and sloppily, like an infant would. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:27, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Bugs, you will no doubt be pleased to know that the birds were skinned, then cooked, then dressed in their skins before serving: this is a traditional way of serving game fowl in England. (They must have been really resistant to disease back then!) Of course we don't do it now, Elf and Safety and all that. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:46, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

"Elf"? --Trovatore (talk) 19:37, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Phonological history of English fricatives and affricates#H-dropping & Th-fronting, approved by the elf and safety themselves innit? [2] Nil Einne (talk) 04:14, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I eventually figured out she meant "health", but initially I just didn't know what she was talking about. Thought it might be an acronym, --Trovatore (talk) 19:52, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

People who drop their aitches and labialize their interdentals also labialize their laterals, giving "Ewf", not "Elf". μηδείς (talk) 01:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes but we Britons don't spell "elf" as "ewf". It was originally a pun on elf and has stuck, meaning an over vigorous or erroneous use of safety rules. Even the Health and Safety Executive, a branch of Her Majesty's Government, uses the "elf" spelling - and they should know. Alansplodge (talk) 13:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Labialisation of laterals does not automatically follow from labialisation of interdentals, though the "ell" does often tend to be slightly deformed. In the UK, the "elf" in "Elf & Pastry" is pronounced just like the mythological being. Dbfirs 06:56, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

More like lobsters in a tank. Yumm. Maybe Bugs is objecting to the fowl taste. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:50, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

We eat Bugs down here. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:22, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Swans are and have been sacred for long before even the PIE people. Consider Leda and the swan. Consider the Greek cygnus, the Turkic kök ("sky blue/heaven") and Eskimo quγ- are cognates all meaning swan or brightly colored like a swan. μηδείς (talk) 02:10, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The Latin cygnus. And "cognates". --ColinFine (talk) 16:19, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

They've been eating swans for a long time, too. The aria "Olim lacus colueram" from Carl Orff's Carmina Burana (of "O Fortuna" fame) is about the roasting of a swan, and is sung by a tenor, but in falsetto to imitate the suffering of the bird. The words are of medieval provenance. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:21, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that musical work where they get tired of birds and cry out for some Albacore. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Can you explain that? I have listened to the work a few dozen times, and cannot for the life of me figure out what you are alluding to. μηδείς (talk) 01:47, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

"Oh, for Tuna!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:05, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, not lol, but I did smile. Admit I am surprised this has not been used in a Starkist commercial. μηδείς (talk) 03:14, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

See also St John's College, Cambridge#Eating swan.

The Queen also has a monopoly on sturgeon: "A fisherman in Swansea is celebrating after landing a valuable fish which could earn him more than £8,000. The sturgeon is rarely seen in UK waters and is classified as a royal fish, meaning the Queen had to be consulted before it was sold on. Buckingham Palace has said that Mr Davies can keep the fish and it is due to be sold on Thursday."[3]

Also beached whales: "A very ancient statute gave the head of the Crown the right to all the cetaceans stranded around the UK. 'The king had the right to the head and the queen had the right to the tail.' But Mr Deaville is not aware of a monarch ever asking for part of a whale. 'The royal prerogative has transferred to the Receiver of Wreck, within the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, but in practice our project gets first dibs,' he said."[4] Alansplodge (talk) 13:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Date of Kurdistan presidential election (for an RM)

Bit of an unorthodox request here. A user requested renaming Iraqi Kurdistan presidential election, 2015 to reflect a 2013 date. No one has voiced support or objection, but from the source the editor presented, I'm not entirely sure there isn't confusion with the Iraqi Kurdistan legislative election, 2013. Could a diligent searcher, especially one with relevant language skills, look into this? Your reply at the RM would be appreciated. --BDD (talk) 23:53, 29 August 2013 (UTC)