Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 October 1

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

October 1

Women on boats

Before modern times, did any society regularly put women in boats or ships? I haven't heard of a single female fisherman, explorer, or crew member from ancient times, but almost every island of any size was populated by prehistoric people, presumably by boat. What were the women doing on boats? --50.46.159.94 (talk) 06:42, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Artemisia I of Caria, queen of Halicarnassus, Caria & Kos led 5 ships at the Battle of Artemisium and the Battle of Salamis.
Sleigh (talk) 09:56, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Cleopatra at the Battle of Actium. And there were plenty of women pirates, blast ye. Noah's womenfolk? But it was just for a three-hour tour, a three-hour tour. But then the weather started getting rough .... Clarityfiend (talk) 14:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Obviously prehistoric women traveled by boat or ship; otherwise human communities would have been confined to the mainland until historic times, and we know that's not true. We can't know what women were doing on board in prehistoric times, but cross-culturally, the gender division of labor tends to assign to women roles such as food preparation and child care. There is no reason why they wouldn't have done those things on board during a migration. In ancient historic times, there are exceptions such as the ones Clarityfiend has noted above, but there are also ancient records of women as passengers on seafaring vessels, and that was probably the most common role of women on ships. Marco polo (talk) 14:55, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Here a few links about the history of maritime women [1] [2] [3], though these are mostly from a Western perspective. Of course e.g the Polynesians must have had many women on board as they sailed around the Pacific, as you suggest. Another thing women would have probably played a large role in was making Fishing_nets. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:58, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Of course, a distinction that the OP is missing is the difference between "having existed" and "having been recorded". Unfortunately, past societies did not grant women roles of power and significance, nor did they necessarily think that the actions of women were as important to record as those of men. It doesn't mean those women didn't exist. In the case of travelling by boat; it must first be noted as an uncontroversial historical fact that women were less likely than men to hold prominent roles in maritime travel (such as as ships captains); it is also an uncontroversial historical fact that women tended to be in other roles that the men who were writing things down tended not to think was worth noting. (the facts themselves are not in dispute, that is. The notion that women should be treated differently than men SHOULD be controversial. Gender equality is a goal any civilized person seeks; noting the existence of past inequality does not deny that goal) It doesn't mean that women never got on boats, however. --Jayron32 15:04, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

(ec) It's not that ancient, but I remember reading that some ships of the Spanish Armada carried a few noblemen who basically just came along for the ride, and that some of them brought their wives and/or mistresses. I've also just found this, which says "A large number of women started following their sailor-husbands to sea, and in the British navy during the eighteenth century, a few women even joined their husbands on battleships." Another point to consider is that in ancient times the women may not have been thought worth mentioning. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:08, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

There are also the various "sea gypsy" peoples of Southeast Asia, all of whom live or lived on boats, including women. In many of these groups, women traditionally took part in fishing. It is likely that this is an ancient tradition. Marco polo (talk) 15:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Not all cultures had taboos or superstitions about having women on boats. Those that did, often made a distinction between crew vs passenger. Having women as a crew member was taboo, but carrying a woman as a passenger (or in the case of slave ships, cargo) was not. Blueboar (talk) 23:28, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Identifying an author

Hi - Found this at IA -https://archive.org/details/fancydressesdesc00holtrich (Fancy dresses described : or, What to wear at fancy balls ([1887])), and wanted to put it on Wikisource.

Small problem , I can't find any details about the author. (At the very least I need a date of death, so I can select the right licensing at Commons).

Anyone on the reference desk able to find the Ardern Holt that wrote this?

It would also be nice to have confirmation that the Percy Anderson on https://archive.org/details/costumefancifulh00aria is the same one that did posters for a certain famous "Opera" company. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 21:29, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

You've linked to a book by Eliza Davis Aria. We have Percy Anderson as well. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the condfirmation on the second work listed :), Still trying to track down the first. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:23, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

To editor ShakespeareFan00: - both the links you gave go to the same work! DuncanHill (talk) 13:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Amended, I must remember to check before posting... 15:11, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Ardern Holt was apparently a pseudonym used by a columnist at The Queen. It is possible (this is just my speculation) that like Cecil Adams she might not have existed as a real person.--Cam (talk) 13:50, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. That complicates matters.. What's the UK term on a 'pseudonymous' work? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 15:10, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Not such a great complication. The UK legislation uses the term "pseudonymous work".[4] Thincat (talk) 20:10, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

[5] confirms that they were columnist active between 1866 and at least 1916. Can't seemingly find anyone by that exact name in the 1911 Census though, which is unusual. Other sources seem to suggest either a male or female columnist which doesn't help. Puzzling. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:12, 2 October 2014 (UTC)