Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 August 19

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August 19

Free France vs French Republic

When Nazi Germany occupied Poland and the Netherlands, their government escaped overseas and fought on as the Polish government-in-exile and the Dutch government-in-exile. They both claimed to be the sole legitimate successor to their original state. A whole bunch of other Allied countries did the same.

Except for France. De Gaulle chose to name his side "Free France" and even went as far as to pick a new flag for it:

What's the reason for this difference?

Suppose I was a French soldier back then, with sworn allegiance to the French Republic and have the flag of the French Republic stitched on my uniform, and I was considering joining the Allied cause. The decision would be slightly easier if the new side I'm joining is the French Republic (the same legal entity to which I swore allegiance to) and has the same flag as the one on my uniform. Mũeller (talk) 03:13, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

The Netherlands were fully occupied and controlled by a German occupational government (see Netherlands in World War II#German occupation). Poland ceased to exist as far as the Nazis were concerned - half of it was technically annexed to Germany itself (and the other half was occupied by the Soviets - see Occupation of Poland (1939–1945) among other articles). France was a bit different. Some of it was controlled by a German occupational government like in the Netherlands (see German military administration in occupied France during World War II), but some of it was technically independent, unoccupied, and "neutral", the zone libre or Vichy France. Since Vichy claimed to be the uninterrupted legitimate government, there was no government in exile, as was the case with the Netherlands and Poland. (Vichy was also fully occupied by Germany in 1942, but the Vichy government still pretended to be in power.) Adam Bishop (talk) 03:40, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Isn't Vichy France officially called the "French State" in English ("État français" in French) and thus is distinct from the pre-occupation French Republic ("République française" in French)? At least that's the impression I'm getting from comparing the info bar of Vichy France and French Third Republic. They even have different emblems and different mottos.

Seems to me that if Vichy France isn't willing to claim the "French Republic" title then the title is free for De Gaulle for the taking. Yet he didn't take it for some reason. Mũeller (talk) 04:35, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, that's because the Third Republic was dissolved by the National Assembly with the French Constitutional Law of 1940 (10 July 1940), at the instigation of Philippe Pétain. Those deputies that voted against the Constitutional Law were called the The Vichy 80, while 27 others fled the country and were denounced as traitors. Pétain was able to blame the Third Republic for France's failure in the war, claiming that it was corrupt and inherently inefficient. Instead he introduced a Second Constitutional Act (but not a new constitution, which he hoped to introduce once the occupation had ended) which gave him almost absolute power and instituted a far-right political agenda called the Révolution nationale.

De Gaulle couldn't claim the mantle of the Third Republic because nobody had ever voted for him, and his Free French organisation in London was a purely military affair. However, once the French African colonies began to join him, he established the French Committee of National Liberation which acted as a provisional government with the stated aim of restoring the Republic. Alansplodge (talk) 08:14, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

And you're wrong that France was the only country which didn't carry on the fight in exile. See Denmark in World War II, where the king and government remained in place, thereby securing a much less oppressive German occupation, most notably protecting their Jewish minority from any restrictions or deportations. Belgium in World War II was a sort of halfway house, because the king signed an armistice without the consent of his government; the king stayed in Brussels while his cabinet escaped to London to form a government-in-exile. The Germans took the view that the king was the government and therefore, Belgium was governed by a civil administrator who used a lighter touch than the military governor in the Netherlands next door, where there had only been a military surrender, and the queen and government had all decamped to England. The somewhat dubious wartime role of the King of the Belgians led to the Royal Question after the war, resulting in his abdication in 1951. Alansplodge (talk) 10:17, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Free France discuss extensively the matter of military loyalty. Basically, french soldiers usually just stand for the current government, whatever it is, because France experienced a great many deal of political regimes between 1789 and 1940 (Monarchy, Republic, Empire, Monarchy, Empire (100 days), Monarchy, Monarchy (1830), Republic (1848), Empire, de facto Republic, de jure Republic). Soldiers have allegiance to FRANCE itself, not some legal entity. This allegiance do not manifest in some sort of Oath of Allegiance, so France is not listed in the article. The french version of this article states that France : Le 20 septembre 2011, en France, l'UMP a proposé que tout Français fasse « allégeance aux armes de la France » that is: no such oath currently exist. Perjury exists in France, but only in matter of justice; moreover, since a perjury would only be committed in connection with some other crime, a perjury isn't matter of prosecution of its own most of the time.

To make the story short: French do not take oath, except in courts.

Note that Petain demanded an oath to himself, nobody really cared about as is was not in french habits. Neither soldiers not civil servants (other than Justice, who do: look french version of Oath of office; this is an oath to truth, NOT some sort of allegiance oath to justice department) currently take no oath. And since this would remind of Petain, you can safely bet it won't happen any time soon.

So, WWII French did not cared about 3rd Republic, obviously dead and a failure. Those who joined De Gaulle cared about France, and knew very well a new Republic would have to be created after war. Those who stand for Petain were in the very same mood! Many (most?) french even stand both for Petain AND De gaulle, wanting to believe they worked in tacit agreement ( https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A8se_du_bouclier_et_de_l%27%C3%A9p%C3%A9e )

Gem fr (talk) 14:56, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, you've hit upon the central problem with many of these arguments, which is "what is France?" (or substitute another country if you please). Is France a plot of land which can be outlined on a map? Is France a group of people? Is France a language and a culture? Is France a set of laws? Is France a collection of political offices? Is France a set of people who occupy those political offices? When a person shows allegiance to France, to which of these concepts are they showing allegiance? What happens when one of those (say the people) is at cross purposes with another (say the office holders)? Who is more the patriot and who is more the rebel: those who show allegiance to an ideal, a population, a set of laws, or a set of office holders? --Jayron32 15:32, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Obviously, 1940 French didn't all agree about this, and this indeed had the consequences that they each other name-called rebels, traitors and the like. Pierre Dac broadcast http://judaisme.sdv.fr/perso/dac/henriot.htm (i leave it to you to translate) is all about France and what it means. It is quite famous, and my guess is it is famous precisely because many French find it draw a fine picture of France and french people. Gem fr (talk) 09:18, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Iconic symbols of the South (unrelated to the Confederacy)

What iconic symbol might be used outside the USA to represent the culture of the U.S. South, e.g. Southern cooking (on a menu)? Must be unrelated to the Confederate flag or other Civil War imagery (Johnny Reb, the Blue and the Gray, etc.). -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Soul food? Bluegrass music? Mint julep? See also: Culture of the Southern United States. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8D4B:299D:315C:7A9A (talk) 07:46, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

OP clarifies: We need a visual symbol, without text. Also no obvious racial stereotypes (Aunt Jemima, Uncle Tom, et al.). -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Live oak, Mississippi River, New Orleans architecture, Georgia peaches, Churchill Downs (or Kentucky Bluegrass)...--216.15.48.37 (talk) 08:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

The Southern live oak (Quercus virginiana) must include Spanish moss. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:8D4B:299D:315C:7A9A (talk) 08:16, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, really "the South" as an entity really is inextricably intertwined with slavery. I suppose magnolias and cotton blossoms might be tangential enough and still recognized. Or a Southern belle all dolled up in her farthingale and finery. - Nunh-huh 08:25, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Brunswick stew. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:36, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I think it'd be difficult to find an illustration that's recognizably Brunswick stew. All stews pretty much look alike,,,, - Nunh-huh 08:42, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

The live oak is indeed used as an emblem by a number of organisations, [1] [2] [3] but I'm not sure that non-Americans would be able to identify it as any particular tree. How about a Gone with the Wind style house with a portico like this? Alansplodge (talk) 10:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• Part of the problem here is defining which "The South" we are talking about. Are we talking about the "Ante Bellum South" (roughly 1800 to 1860)... in which case the iconic images all involve slavery (the cotton plantation being the most iconic). Are we talking the "South" of the Confederacy (1860 to 1865) ... in which case the iconic images all involve that war (the Battle flag, Johnny Reb in his tattered grey uniform, Robert E. Lee, etc). Are we talking about the Post Bellum South (roughly 1870s to 1960s) ... in which case the iconic images all involve segregation ("white only" water fountains, Klansmen in hoods, etc.)... or are we talking about the "New South" (1960s to present)... in which case, I don't think there is (yet) an iconic image. Blueboar (talk) 11:35, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Before anyone complains about my suggestions, I was born and raised in Columbia, South Carolina and one of my ancestors is the only person buried on the State House grounds. A bucket of fried chicken (there is a reason my family currently has chicken from three different restaurants in our fridge right now). Smoked, chopped or pulled pork barbeque (BBQ ain't just grillin' or broilin' hot dogs and burgers!). An RC Cola with a Moon Pie. Peanuts in Coca-Cola. Waffle House. The Andy Griffith Show. Though this all largely ignores that the cancer of slavery was both an element and influence on the South for centuries (and that the infected excision wounds took over a century to begin clearing up). This is perhaps unavoidable with the requirement that Confederate symbols be avoided, as the Civil War was absolutely about slavery and anyone who says otherwise is (hopefully naively and unconsciously) just excusing a narrative developed by and for white supremacists in latter days. Given the role that cotton played in that vile economy, the Deep South is sometimes called the Cotton States, cotton would seem an appropriate symbol. I recall having seen cotton used as decorative motifs in some Southern restaurants, as well. Ian.thomson (talk) 12:31, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Cotton, perhaps with a few sprinkles of blood. Ian.thomson (talk) 12:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

A partial map of the US, i.e. the (deep) South / Black Belt, may be a recognisable image which carries no racist / historical semantics at a first glance. Of course, it is impossible to separate the economy of this area from slavery and consequences.

It is bit like advertising pork schnitzel with Richard-Wagner-Salad in a kosher restaurant 🤢--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 12:55, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

The catfish could be an appropriately neutral symbol. Or the 'possum. Xuxl (talk) 13:32, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the possum was always the first critter I talked about when describing the fauna of my homeland to my students in China. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:50, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

And Kudzu when describing flora. Like, if there's a WikiProject on the South, I would not consider it vandalism but authentic decoration if someone covered the entire page with File:Kudzu.jpg. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:53, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

...which brings to mind WP:KUDZU. Bus stop (talk) 14:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Of all the above suggestions, I think the Southern belle is most recognizable. That is, a woman dressed up in that style, carrying a parasol: [4]. Of course, they don't wear those type of outfits these days, except for reenactments, etc.

Note, however, that any iconic representation of a place is bound to bring charges of promoting stereotypes. I am from Detroit, and the positive associations here (cars and Motown) would bring similar charges. The best you can probably do is to pick a stereotype that isn't insulting. So, for the South you would avoid a barefoot redneck and in Detroit you would avoid images of urban decay. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Maybe you've heard this oldie about a vacation contest. First prize is a week in Detroit. Second prize is two weeks in Detroit. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

What ever happened with the statue of RoboCop? Ian.thomson (talk) 15:07, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Detroit has a statue that's even worse: The Fist. StuRat (talk) 22:19, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

RoboCop statue would've been great. I wish the South had a figure to represent the region like that. Closest we've got is an idiot savant mechanic who can't properly identify gardening equipment. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:54, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Tim Allen grew up in Detroit, and his first sitcom, Home Improvement, was set there. So, maybe a statue of Wilson peering over the fence would work. StuRat (talk) 19:48, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

A picture of Scarlett O'Hara would do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:38, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Yikes! Edit conflict. Perhaps a specific Southern belle such as Scarlett O'Hara. Bus stop (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Or you could go with Carol Burnett's version of her, where the dress made from the curtain in the movie still contained the curtain rod: [5], and went with the line "I saw it in the window and I just had to have it !". StuRat (talk) 14:47, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Jazz - one of the greats, or one of the poster images from the thirties. Wymspen (talk) 14:51, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Jazz isn't exclusively southern. Many jazz artists, like Miles Davis, were not from the south, and others, like Charlie Parker were born there, but spent most of their career in the north. StuRat (talk) 21:34, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Returning to to OP's query regarding a visual symbol: how about a classic paddle wheeler showboat? Non-controversial, and evokes a happy mood, etc.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:a000:4c0c:e200:a90e:d475:2878:2440 (talk • contribs)

Steamboats remind me, Mark Twain should be the South's mascot. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:37, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

But then you have A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. StuRat (talk) 22:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

How about a map of the continental United States differentiating between You Guys and Y'All such as this. Bus stop (talk) 00:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Cuisine of the Southern United States describes a number of regional variations, and I'm skeptical that a restaurant outside the U.S. would specialize in all of them but no others unless it were specifically trying for a defined regional motif, in which case one of the map ideas might actually work. Otherwise, they could pick some subset like Creole or Lowcountry to tie together their offerings and make them more distinctive, which would allow more specific and relevant symbology. Wnt (talk) 12:11, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

OP clarifies: Select items of American cuisine are menu features at pubs, cafes and similar casual eateries throughout Israel, serving a usually young clientele and including foreign visitors, American or otherwise. Am looking for an icon to replace, guess what, the Confederate flag. I'm partial to the cotton boll being fairly recognizable thanks to the garment industry. The paddle wheel steamer has potential but may conjure up images of the Disneyland ride (possibly not a bad thing). -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:03, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

The paddle wheel steamer would do well for one part of "The South" ... the Mississippi region. However, it would not work well for other parts of "The South" (for example: Virginia or Georgia). I'm not sure there is a non-confederate symbol that would be iconic for all the regions that make up the entire "South". Blueboar (talk) 13:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

A cotton bud in front of a steamer would cover pretty much everywhere and really get the point across. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:53, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Throw in a tobacco leaf. There's still nothing representing the Appalachian portions, but they're used to getting short shrift... --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 14:38, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

A jug of moonshine whiskey? Blueboar (talk) 14:41, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Or a banjo. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:46, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

[don't know where to indent] –If you're looking for a logo, that could be difficult, but if you're just looking for some "Southern charm" ambiance, you can't go wrong with Southern live oaks w/Spanish moss. Azaleas also recur in Southern charm imagery. I don't want to spam a commercial site, but... here's an example. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:EC30:98E9:F083:2A5E (talk) 19:50, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Magnolia grandiflora. shoy (reactions) 17:58, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

This video evokes a version of the South of bygone years. Bus stop (talk) 16:11, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

John Wadham (died 1412)

Hello, I have submitted a completed draft for John Wadham (died 1412) who was a Justice of the Common Pleas in the reign of Richard II, but I don't know how to take the process any further .... Might you check the draft for me and add it to Wikipedia ? Best wishes, Julian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.81.199 (talk) 16:37, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

The draft can be seen at Draft:John Wadham (died 1412). May I suggest that a better place to ask for help might be the Wikipedia:Teahouse. Also, it might be a really good idea to create a Wikipedia account which makes it easier to talk to other editors and conceals your IP address. Alansplodge (talk) 17:51, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Did you know that we have a page especially to help people in your situation? It's Wikipedia:Articles for creation. It will help you register for an account, show you how to get someone to look at your page, and warn you about a scam that you may be exposed to. Matt's talk 00:21, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

But having read that, if you want a real person to help you out, the Teahouse is the place to go. Alansplodge (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Would they have turned the key?

I've just seen this BBC story from August last year about the Titan Missile Museum which quotes the museum director, a former Titan missile silo crew director, talking about whether she would have triggered Armageddon: “I’m 99.999% sure I would have done it,” she says. “My entire family lives in the foothills of Virginia, about 100 miles south of Washington DC, so by the time I get the launch order if they’re not already dead, they’re going to be dead soon."

Was this ever really tested, in blind conditions? Hayttom (talk) 19:31, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

@Hayttom: Not an answer, but quite interesting, Harold Hering. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 20:35, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Not quite appropriate, but check The Long Watch. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:39, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, not an exact answer to your question, but the 1983 Soviet nuclear false alarm incident suggests that the servicepeople do think carefully before launching things in real conditions. Matt's talk 00:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 July 21#Can a US President set off the nukes anytime he wants, even for no reason? for another example on the Soviet side. On the American side, a radar image of the rays of the rising sun was interpreted as incoming missiles but no action was taken. 92.8.219.206 (talk) 16:37, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

So, nobody found a direct answer to my question, which would have been worrying during the cold war but not quite as big a concern now. Thanks to all the responders. Hayttom (talk) 18:10, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Resolved

We learn something every day. I had no idea that rays of the rising sun could reflect radar. —Tamfang (talk) 08:12, 24 August 2017 (UTC)