Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 March 9

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March 9

Modern numeral systems

The western Arabic numerals, 0123456789, are obviously widely used. In Iran, the national standard is the eastern Arabic numerals, ٠١٢٣٤٥٦٧٨٩, which are also in wide use in a few other countries. Other than these two numeral systems are there any others that still enjoy widespread use as the primary numeral system within some population? I don't mean cases like Roman numerals or Chinese numerals, which are still familiar and understood but rarely used in day-to-day affairs. Rather, I am interested if there are countries or populations where the predominant writing standard for numbers is still something other than Arabic numerals. I think the Burmese numerals or the Indian numerals might qualify, but I'm not really sure how widely used these are today. Dragons flight (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

When I was in China, the predominant way to represent numbers was with Chinese characters with the exception of 0, which used the Arabic/Latin 0. It wasn't just "familiar". It was the norm. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 15:50, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

There are many systems. See Template:Numeral systems for a comprehensive overview. 86.155.145.152 (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

But the question asked about systems "that still enjoy widespread use as the primary numeral system within some population", not for just a list of systems. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 17:38, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

I suppose you could be right about China. I've never been there myself, so I don't have any local knowledge. However, from the internet I am familiar with many documents like this [1] and portals like this [2] (both from the Ministry of the Environment) or news releases like [3] that consistently mix Chinese text with Arabic numerals. That's where my impression has come from that Arabic numerals have become the dominant numeral system in China. Dragons flight (talk) 18:09, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

I have two leaves from a calendar, for respectively Monday 19 February and Tuesday 20 February. It is Gujarati on the left and English on the right. The English side uses western numerals and the Gujarati side uses Gujarati numerals. On the left the dates are the 4th and 5th of the month in either the lunar or the sidereal calendar (I don't know enough to distinguish) and the year is Vikrama Samvat 2074. So in that part of the world Hindi numerals seem to be well established. 86.155.145.163 (talk) 15:31, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

I also have a book printed entirely in Gujarati (including the numerals), except for the word INDIA on the title page and some Arabic accompanying the picture of a mosque at the beginning of the first chapter. From my new-found knowledge of this language (which I didn't know existed till yesterday) I can see three dates on the title page - 2001, 1393 and 1973. 1393 is the Islamic year which began in 1973. The book is evidently recently printed, and demonstrates that the Gujarati numerals are embedded in the culture. 86.155.146.232 (talk) 12:52, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Syria's conflict

I just checked this website [4]. I am not sure if it will work for everyone so the essence there is that a fighting goes on in residential areas, some paramilitaries run around loading shells in mobile assault cannons, women actually, everyone is excited. My question is: what do they eat? I mean, who supplies them bare necessities? Who finances this war? Where do they get all those shells? There should be trucks full of food and ammunition running there constantly to supply them. It is not a video game by any means. What is the logistics of all this? AboutFace 22 (talk) 14:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

There's several sources here, of varying relyability, that go into the topic. --Jayron32 14:55, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

In city areas there are often extended existing tunnel systems. Additionally such tunnels have been part of the history of Trench warfare. The Tunnel systems in the Vietnam War for example in cases like the Củ Chi tunnels extended to a 75-mile (121 km)-long complex. Besides their strategic use in warfare such tunnels are of course also used as shelter and to establish supply lines (read our article Gaza Strip smuggling tunnels) but they also have to be kept secret for obvious reasons and thus can not be used by aid convoys. --Kharon (talk) 16:55, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Which is regarded as a prestige language in Hong Kong - Standard Mandarin, Standard Cantonese, or English?

I just read this source (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/opinion/23iht-edyu.html), and it seems that “Cantonese” is lowest rung. English is the language of prestige, so the little kid learns English from non-native English speakers so that he can enroll in the prestigious international school. Meanwhile, I’ve read elsewhere that Standard Cantonese is the prestige dialect of the Guangdong area. But as PRC China is rising, wouldn’t Hong Kong people value Mandarin more and more? Okay, which language is actually prestigious in Hong Kong? Or do the parents just want to send the boy to a prestigious international school and satisfy the English requirement? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 17:17, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

It may depend on who you're talking with and the context of the conversation. Trying to deal with a gov't bureaucrat from Beijing? Mandarin. Talking to a member of the upper-middle class, to see who can brag about their kid more? English, depending on their context. Talking with someone who moved from Guangdong to Hong Kong a long time ago to reduce the PRC's presence in their life, about said move? Cantonese. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

See also Cantonese v Mandarin: When Hong Kong languages get political from the BBC. "The social rejection of Putonghua (i.e. Mandarin) has come as people question their Chinese identity, which has alarmed both the Hong Kong and mainland Chinese governments". Alansplodge (talk) 13:53, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

That article answered my question. In summary, both Mandarin and English are prestigious languages, while Cantonese (even the Standard variety) is less prestigious. I personally know young people who speak 武汉话 (Wuhan topolect), 武汉普通话 (Wuhan-accented Standard Mandarin or Wuhan topolect with Standard Mandarin tones) and 普通话 (Standard Mandarin, lingua franca). Maybe this loss of topolects is regional or something, or maybe only some kids are losing the ability because their parents are afraid the use the topolects will confuse them in school and school is highly competitive. There doesn’t seem anything wrong with learning the national language of China, putonghua, in school, and using the regional language in everyday life. People already do this in other parts of China, anyway. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 15:45, 12 March 2018 (UTC)