Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 October 26

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October 26

The Scythians

I'm looking for a historian or writer, surname Rutherford who wrote a book or an article about the ancient people called the Scythians. A 1951 movie with Jimmy Stewart, called "No Highway in the Sky" mentions the surname, in regards to the subject. His character makes a statement about the "ten lost tribes of the Scythians." Thank you for your help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:344:C080:DE50:E1C3:3872:9FD2:84C7 (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

This may refer to the Ten Lost Tribes and British Israelism. Actually, Nordic Israelism mentions an Adam Rutherford, although in connection with Iceland, not the Scythians. --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:34, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

We have No Highway in the Sky and Scythians. No reason to believe the "Rutherford" mentioned in a fiction work is real, Rutherford (surname) doesn't mention any historian. Gem fr (talk) 18:40, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

It's a fiction device often used in cinema, roughly, anterior to 2001 A Space Odissey: the "indirect or tacit reference", or allusion. The movie alludes to metal fatigue in aircrafts. There is no Rutherford in real life as an historian but everyone or at least any history buff in 1951 ( year of the movie ) knew the name of the other Rutherford and pieces of the following:

"We must remember that Rutherford could not directly observe the structure of the nucleus, so his conclusions were tentative. Nevertheless, he was openly considering the possibilities of a complex nucleus, capable of deformation and even of possible disintegration. These thoughts shaped this intense period of experimental researches."
( https://history.aip.org/exhibits/rutherford/sections/alpha-particles-atom.html ) Chances are that "the lost tribes" was intended as a prediction of losses that would be encounterred in air travel then ( see No Highway, by Nevil Shute ). As Shute had left his own position at De Havilland and become a writer the allusion was well balanced. It could allude to him meanwhile. The Rutherford stuff would be mainly describing his obsessions. --Askedonty (talk) 22:15, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Here's the passage in No Highway[1]. and Sharon Turner.—eric

How about an "Adam Rutherford"[2], but I can't find The Aryan Flow yet.—eric 00:08, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Oops, User:Wrongfilter already mentioned Adam Rutherford, but he must not have seen Israel-Britain, for which i can't find any ebook versions.—eric 00:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Neither the Library of Congress nor the British Library nor Worldcat has an entry for any book with Aryan Flow in its title. Conclusion: this book is indeed fictional, invented by Shute to give the characters something to talk about. And I think it's plausible that the name "Rutherford" was chosen, just as might be done with the characters appearing in the novel, simply because it is a reasonably common name and there did not suggest any real person. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 05:23, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Here's a hint that Rutherford and Aryan Flow may not be entirely fictional (it may be a self-published pamphlet or something else that hasn't made into library catalogues). The passage linked to by User:EricR certainly reads as if it alludes to a real (if rather murky) subject. We also know that Adam Rutherford existed and dealed in such matters. Hence, this shouldn't be dismissed as purely fictional. --Wrongfilter (talk) 07:16, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Interesting find, thanks. I wish more than a snippet was visible so we could have a clearer idea of what it says. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 04:26, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Just to clear up one confusion. The link posted by EricR makes it clear that the theory that's being discussed is that the Scythians were the ten lost tribes of Israel. Not that there were ten lost tribes of Scythians. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

An other remark related to the possible patterns followed by the writer: as noted by 76.69.116.4 "Rutherford" is a reasonably common name. The tale's narrator obsession is an airplane's tail disintegrating and both book and movie are dated early after the conclusion of WWII, I made a search for tailgunners by that name. For reward, a relatively huge number of WWII bombers tales, compared with usual search accuracy ( above 10% of the "Rutherford"s mentioned gunners and tail gunners). [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] The earliest occurence found concerns a Wellington bomber, seen crashed on a beach in the Netherlands I think, 20 January 1942 [19]. --Askedonty (talk) 10:06, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

And Rutherford B. Hayes would have made a great Santa Claus, who also piloted of reindeer.—eric 18:12, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

By that you mean he believed in meritocratic government. But I think, quite correct, yes. No idea how far that lead could have been taken to in the story. --Askedonty (talk) 18:20, 28 October 2019 (UTC)