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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2021 October 21

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October 21

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What gongs is Lloyd George wearing?

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From left - Vera Weizmann, Chaim Weizmann, Herbert Samuel, David Lloyd George, Ethel Snowden, and Philip Snowden

The picture shews David Lloyd George together with the Weizmanns, the Snowdens, and Herbert Samuel, at a Zionist Federation dinner held in his honour at the Savoy in 1931. I would like to know what decorations LlG is wearing. Around his neck is the OM, which I believe to be the only British order or decoration he accepted. Sorry it's not a great picture, but I know some of you are red-hot at this sort of thing, DuncanHill (talk) 00:59, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gongs? <-Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots-> 02:42, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Common British newspaper jargon for awards, medals, honors... AnonMoos (talk) 03:00, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Any idea when or where that term originated? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:36, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
According to Wiktionary from Malay gong.  --Lambiam 07:08, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. But what about the slang usage as an award? When or where did that start? If it's in that link, I'm not seeing it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The OED's first citation for that sense reads "1925   E. Fraser & J. Gibbons Soldier & Sailor Words 106 A gong, a medal. (An old Army term suggested by the shape.)" Note that the explanatory parenthesis is part of the quotation. --ColinFine (talk) 10:49, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the round shape taken by many medals. That makes sense. Thank you! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:57, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English (p. 494) by Eric Partridge says "orig, army, l ater all Services: since late C.19". Alansplodge (talk) 11:08, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not to be confused with gongshow. Or with flying teapots, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's very common slang here, which is probably why Duncan thought it would be easily understood. I'm a little surprised that the similarity between a brass gong and a medal would require explanation. Many English middle-class homes would have a dinner-gong to let everyone know when a meal was ready, so perhaps we're more familiar with them. My grandparents had one.Alansplodge (talk) 11:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Alan, that is so middle class. Alas we used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:44, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Surely even people too common to have had, or aspired to, a dinner gong would have been familiar with the cinematic oeuvre of Bombardier Billy Wells? DuncanHill (talk) 14:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My dad's version of the dinner gong would be to march into the living room and switch off the TV, particularly if we were watching Top of the Pops. Caused a great atmosphere over the ensuing meal (which was called "tea", seeing as we lived "oop north"). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Awww shucks, I always thought it was J. Arthur Rank himself. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure I've ever heard of a dinner gong, but traditionally in the American West there were dinner-summoning triangles (a rod of metal with two bends)... AnonMoos (talk) 15:38, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We had a dinner gong (in our Midwest home) and it never occurred to anyone in the house to compare it to a medal. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:56, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The comparison under discussion is of a medal to a gong, not a gong to a medal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.128.151 (talk) 20:47, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, David Lloyd George#Honours lists Knight of Grace, Order of Saint John as well as a number of foreign medals, including the French Legion of Honour. Alansplodge (talk) 11:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Dods Parliamentary Companion has "Awarded special war medals by the King January 1920"[1] 1914 Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal maybe?[2] fiveby(zero) 12:08, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have posted a note at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Military history#Expert eye required please in the hope that one of their militaria sages can tell us which is what. Alansplodge (talk) 12:35, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
LLoyd George, Caernarvon Castle, 1939 could be Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. fiveby(zero) 13:04, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nice goats. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • forum post quotes from Aitken, William Maxwell (1956). Men and power : 1917 1918. pp. 325–6. OCLC 839402055. concerning the award of the war medals.
  • in 1910 wearing what i assume is the rightmost in the later photos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fiveby (talk • contribs) 15:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And why is that image dated (at source, as well as on Commons) "1939-1930 (no later than 1937..."? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:38, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Pigsonthewing:You would have to ask the good people at the Harvard Library why they didn't do five minute's research, or ask someone who knows a little bit about Lloyd George and Zionism, to check their facts. See User talk:Paulturtle#Lloyd George, Samuel, Weizmanns, and Snowdens. for further information and clarification. DuncanHill (talk) 18:26, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Would one use the dinner gong to call people to a meal of scrambled eggs :-) MarnetteD|Talk 19:05, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, for that one would use the breakfast gong. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.193.128.151 (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Margo: "Did I hear a dinner gong?"
Tom: "Not unless the chicken jumped out of the oven and banged one." Martinevans123 (talk) 22:16, 21 October 2021 (UTC) [reply]

OM round the neck, St. John on a medal bar (since he was wearing OM?), war medals, and for the last would he wear only one of the coronation or jubilee medals[3]? Last in the 1939 photo looks like a King George V Coronation Medal or King George V Silver Jubilee Medal. fiveby(zero) 13:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: If I relied on "reliable sources" like Harvard I'd think the dinner was at a non-existent hotel (see my link to Paulturtle's talk page above). Anyway, if we can get good candidates for the decorations it narrows down searches for what Wikipedia calls reliable sources. Sometimes you have to do original research in order to know where to look for "reliable sources". Fiveby's suggestions enable us to search for sources which mention those medals in connexion with LlG, and in them we may find something to say what he wore on this occasion. Anyway, the question was asked out of general interest, not a quest for "reliable sources". DuncanHill (talk) 13:14, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are absolutely correct, but DuncanHill has seen enough of my ref desk contributions to know that I'm just flailing around searching, and I've seen enough of his to know he will put the pieces together in the end and has the background to do so much better than I ever could. To be clear, i am convinced of the first four medals. I'm guessing the last is a KGV coronation, but am confused as to what's worn on the PC uniform in 1910 (is the date wrong and the levee was in 1911? is it and Edward VII? something from when he was a Welsh Volunteer?) And in 1939 why wasn't he wearing both a coronation and jubilee? fiveby(zero) 15:43, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why do many communist countries have standing committees instead of permanent parliaments?

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I'm not sure if we have an article about this, but one thing I noticed is that, as far as I'm aware, most communist countries have parliaments which have relatively short sessions, with standing committees serving as legislative bodies when the parliaments are not in session. By contrast, most democratic countries have more permanent legislative bodies and as far as I know generally do not have standing committees but instead meet in regular sessions. Is there a reason in communist or socialist thought that encourages this particular parliamentary structure of legislative bodies with short meetings and the existence of standing committees? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:45, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Strictly speaking, the standing committees are not legislatures, but arms of the executive. They have "regulatory power" (sometimes called secondary legislation which is granted to them by the legislative. Most governments do this. In the U.S. the exactly analogous bodies are called United States federal executive departments, and have been granted power to set regulation by Congress. In the UK, these bodies are the Departments of the Government of the United Kingdom, many of which are called Ministries. The relative power between the legislative and the executive in terms of setting policy varies from state to state, but on paper at least, the various communist committees setting regulation are of a similar framework as other states, from a political theory point of view. --Jayron32 13:09, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) It is likely because they used as a model the Supreme Soviet, which was so large (1,500 members) that it was extremely unwieldy to have it meet for more than ceremonial sessions. Thus, the real legislative work was done by a much smaller committee (the Presidium). The unstated advantage is that it is much easier to control who is a member of a committee than who is part of the larger body, ensuring compliancy. Theoretically, the Supreme Soviet was freely elected, although it quickly became made up only of members in good standing of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, so the chance of dissident voices appearing was pretty small - until the major reforms of the late 1980s. Xuxl (talk) 13:18, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also worth pointing out that in most countries, the legislature is NOT permanent. In most countries, the legislature will take breaks and recesses of various lengths, and is not always meeting. These Legislative sessions can last as long as they need for the business of the legislature. The US Congress pretty much currently meets year round, opening a session in January and adjourning sine die in December each year, though as noted at Procedures of the United States Congress, they used to meet much shorter, with sessions often lasting as short as 4 months (December to March). Both chambers will now hold periodic pro forma sessions (often with as few as 1-2 members) merely to avoid being forced to adjourn (which they must do if they go longer than 3 days without meeting), but this is by practice and not by constitution; Congress could open a session on January 3 and adjourn sine die the same day; it would be within their constitutional remit to do so. In the UK and other Commonwealth realms, Parliament sets their own session lengths, but they also don't meet continuously. --Jayron32 13:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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