Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 July 31

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July 31

Book publication dates

For a project I'm working on, I need to check the exact publication dates for a bunch of novels etc. Google is my friend, yet often it gives me wildly varying dates for the same book. A case in point: the publication date for Steve Toltz's A Fraction of the Whole is either:

• 12 Feb 2008, 11 Apr 2008, 1 May 2008, before Jun 2008, 23 Sep 2008, 1 Oct 2008, 6 Oct 2008, 14 May 2009, or possibly others, depending on which hit one chooses to believe. [1]

I understand that editions in different languages, and hardbacks vs. paperbacks can come out at different times. Also, books will be released in foreign countries at varying times, because different publishers will be involved. But in general, these do not seem to explain the variations in publication dates that I'm seeing. What would explain them? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

A Google search for "A Fraction of the Whole" "first published" gives a large number of mentions of specifically February 12, 2008, apparently by Spiegel & Grau. Amazon states explicitly that this is the first edition.  --Lambiam 23:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

As a book collector and researcher, I would not place much reliance on dates given on Amazon; they often refer to a 'first edition' in a particular country, and are often entered well before publication, which may then be delayed or advanced.

I note that Spiegel & Grau were/are a New York publisher, whereas the book's article gives its (presumably first edition) publisher as Hamish Hamilton, Australia, as one might expect for an Australian author's first novel. The online Science Fiction Encyclopedia (Toltz's work verges on the fantastic/near future) also gives the Australian edition as the first, though (as always) it records only the year, and by policy favours the author's 'home nation' when editions have appeared simultaneously or nearly so in more than one country. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 01:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Hamish Hamilton was a British publisher; the imprint is since 1986 part of Penguin,^[2] now owned by Penguin Random House. Here on AbeBooks a hardcover edition is listed as "Published by Hamish Hamilton, London, 2008".  --Lambiam 09:25, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, all true, but:

(a) Publishing house and imprint ownership often has several tiers, complexly related, but the 'lowest tier' involved (whose name/colophon will definitively be on the Title Page) is conventionally recognised as 'the publisher' of a work, and;

(b) many large London-based publishers have 'local branches' in other Commonwealth countries; these often publish works by that country's authors which the London 'parent' publishes later, or not at all, or for someone with international appeal simultaneously, and they are recognised as 'publishers' in their own right.

As a book collector (and former editor at a London publisher which was then independent but is now a 'mere' imprint) I often wish these matters were more straightforward, but they're not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.169.77 (talk) 01:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Enough said. Thank you, all. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Lafcadio Hearn story - One man in a boat

The Algernon Blackwood short story 'The Man who was Milligan' refers to a Lafcadio Hearn story "about a picture of a man in a boat. An observer, watching the picture, had seen the man move. The man actually began to row. Finally, the man rowed right out of the picture and into the place - a temple - where the observer stood." What is the Lafcadio Hearn story? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 01:37, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't match the "temple" part, but maybe "The Story of Kwashin Koji"—see the last paragraph of the story here. Deor (talk) 14:41, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh that must be it, especially with the disappearing never to be seen again. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Trouble finding reliable sources

I'm trying to add information to Beethoven's legacy section, however I'm having trouble finding reliable sources which give good information. When I use google I run into articles which aren't reliable and when I use google scholar all of the sources are locked behind a paywall. And, yes, I tried looking into the sources section of the wikipedia guides. What can I do? Wikieditor662 (talk) 08:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)Wikieditor662 (talk) 08:51, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@Wikieditor662 If you cannot find reliable sources, there is nothing to do, because Wikipedia articles should be solely based on reliable sources. You might have better luck if you mention this issue on the article talk page, which will be watched by editors more familiar with the subject. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:10, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sure there are reliable sources on the influence of beethoven, I just don't know how to find them. But, sure, I'll ask on the article page... Wikieditor662 (talk) 09:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Sources don't have to be online (links are nice to have, but not essential). A Public Library of any size (if you can get to one) should have (or could obtain for you via Interlibrary loan) biographies of Beethoven which will likely discuss this topic at length. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.67.235 (talk) 12:27, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll see if I can do that. Also, are there any other ways to get online sources, as they're much easier to use? Wikieditor662 (talk) 12:34, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Have a look at WP:RX. ColinFine (talk) 18:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

A Google Books search often affords no preview or one that is too limited, but you will not run into a paywall. Another searchable repository of books is eBooks and Texts at the Internet Archive. Just searching for Beethoven+legacy turns up possibly useful sources. A source that offers information of interest but is by itself not reliable can serve as a source of inspiration for keywords for a more precisely targeted search. See also Help:Find sources and WP:Advanced source searching.  --Lambiam 21:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikieditor662, I agree that archive.org (linked above) is an excellent resource and beats even the best reference library hands down. Opening a free account gives you access to copyright works.

Additionally the Wikipedia Library gives you access to a world of academic articles and books such as JSTOR, Oxford, Brill, Taylor & Francis, etc. etc. Alansplodge (talk) 10:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

To get you started, I found The Value of Beethoven which you can access through the Wikipedia Library or you can open a free JSTOR account (click on "Alternate access options" on the right of the page). Alansplodge (talk) 10:50, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you guys so much for this. Unfortunately I cannot access the wikipedia as it requires 500+ edits and 6 months+ of editing. I will look into the JSTOR thing, although I haven't found anything useful from "The value of Beethoven" (except for one thing which I already have from somewhere else), and I do find some of the information on there to be questionable, especially when they said that Gluck and Haydn are part of the 6 greatest composers by far (or something like that). Wikieditor662 (talk) 12:09, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wikieditor662: Until you qualify for the Wikipedia Library, and for things it does not cover, you can ask at WP:RX. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, but what I wrote has been rejected so there's no point in me continuing. Wikieditor662 (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2024 (UTC)