Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 September 29

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September 29

Women kidnapped to harems in the 1950s

I read a story online in which a Greek woman in the 1950s was almost tricked to being trafficked to a harem in the Arabian Peninsula, after answering an job advertisement in a newspaper. I remember hearding similar stories when I read about white slavery.

Certain athentic cases of European women dissapearing in the Muslim world, such as Gunnel Gummeson, have been speculated to be victims of such kidnappings.

I wonder: are there actual historic cases when European women where known to be kidnapped to harems in that time period? And how probable was it?

Some people have called sutch stories propaganda. But it is factual that Africa women where kidnapped to become slave concubines in harems in the Gulf in that time period (slavery in Saudi Arabia was still legal). So if African women where subjected to this fate, why not European woman? Are there known cases? Thank you --Aciram (talk) 00:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Circassian sex slaves were much in demand in the Ottoman Empire, which until 1916 included the western region of modern-day Saudi Arabia containing Mecca and Medina. There is no reason to think this ended when slavery became illegal. Quoting from Sexual slavery § Present day, Asia:

"The Trafficking in Persons Report of 2007 from the US Department of State says that sexual slavery exists in the Persian Gulf, where women and children may be trafficked from the post-Soviet states, Eastern Europe, Far East, Africa, South Asia or other parts Middle East.^{[203][204][205]}"

 --Lambiam 09:48, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I realise it is logical and reasonable to assume that there where such cases. Chattel slavery was indeed both legal and in full practice in most Gulf states in the 1950s.

But I am interested in the particular time period of the decades around the 1950s: before the fall of the Societ Union, when modern sex trafficking from Eastern Europe became rampant. Where there such cases in the Interwar period, and the 1950s? It is that particular time period I am interested in. --Aciram (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

There is every reason to think that Ottoman Empire slavery ended when the Ottoman Empire ended. And in the cited modern source (it's misleadingly 3 citations to the same state department report), simply listing countries means nothing -- working through them, you'll see most countries are tier 2 and below, and it seems all will be listed as 2 or more of source, transit, and destination for trafficking. I'm not disputing the problem of trafficking -- I'm asserting that your statements are unsupported.

As to the OP's question of whether European sex trafficking still occurs by force/abduction/kidnapping, it's relatively easy to find individual nightmare cases: The Guardian 2011-02-06 (Romania-to-UK), Vice 2013-04-28 (Bulgaria-to-Italy). More broadly, I found an old UNODC report "Trafficking in Persons to Europe for sexual exploitation": on p.3 it summarizes the notion of coercion (with citations to studies), where as you may expect the majority of victims have come willingly under a range of expectations, but "they may nonetheless end up in exploitative situations through deception, coercion or violence." This de facto sex slavery condition may be something like what you've heard reports of happening to West African migrants in the Gulf. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean when you say "There is every reason to think that Ottoman Empire slavery ended when the Ottoman Empire ended", since legal chattel slavery in Saudi Arabia and Yemen ended in 1962, slavery in Kuwait in 1949, slavery in Dubai in 1963, and slavery in Oman in 1970 - and it is well documented that all of these countries certainly still had chattel slaves until the very year of legal emancipation (I have studied that issue).

However, my specific question is: are there known cases when European women where abducted to be used for sexual slavery (slave concubinage being legal) in harems on the Arabian Peninsula in the 1950s? This was a particular time period: prior to the fall of the Soviet East Communist Block, when sex trafficking became rampant. --Aciram (talk) 21:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I assume the point is that slaves in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, Dubai and Oman were not slaves in the Ottoman Empire after it ended since even if they were part of the Ottoman Empire before, they no longer were. Even slaves in Turkey would not be slaves in the Ottoman Empire. More generally, the slave trade would likely have been significantly affected by the fall of the empire. New routes would likely need to have been developed, and sources may not have been so willing to provide slaves to lesser powers. (Remember this was before any of them became rich and powerful via oil money, I mean a number of them weren't even the modern day states that they are now at the time.) Also the end of the Ottoman Empire didn't happen in a vacuum, WW1 and other related events would likely have significantly affected the trade even of the empire had survived. So while clearly slavery didn't end, it's likely it was quite different from what it was before. Nil Einne (talk) 16:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I have studied the issue, and the slave trade and use of slaves where not much affected in the Arabian Peninsula by the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Regardless, that is irrelevant to the question of the post: is it confirmed that European women where trafficked to the harems in the Arabian Peninsula in the 1950s or around that time? --Aciram (talk) 16:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

First theatres in England

Hello. fr.wikipedia says on that "Le 29 juin 1572, une première ordonnance du Parlement, l'Act for the Punishment of Vagabonds, impose que chaque troupe de comédiens soit sous le patronage d'un noble ou de deux édiles" ["On June 29, 1572, a first ordinance of Parliament, the Act for the Punishment of Vagabonds, required that each troupe of actors be under the patronage of a nobleman or two aediles"] but en.wikipedia write on that "the Mayor and Corporation of London first banned plays in 1572 as a measure against the plague". These two statements are said to be the origin of the birth of theatres in London. Can you tell me which one is correct or give me more information? Already thanks, Égoïté (talk) 19:01, 29 September 2024 (UTC) - sorry for my bad english !

Probably both are correct.

The Act of Parliament would have applied throughout England and Wales, and governed existing (and future) acting companies, which might have travelled around the country performing in public, and/or performed at private houses of rich patrons, or had a fixed venue (see for example Red Lion (theatre)).

The ban on performances by the authorities in London (followed by their expulsion of 'players' entirely in 1575 – see also The Theatre#History) applied to the City of London only, which occupied (as it still does) an area of about one square mile or so on the north bank of the Thames. These measures prompted theatre companies to move to, and build theatres in, the district of Southwark on the south bank of the Thames (across London Bridge) where the City of London had no authority. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 19:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

We have an article Vagabonds Act 1572, unfortunately it doesn't mention players. DuncanHill (talk) 20:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

DuncanHill, it does now (using this ref). Alansplodge (talk) 13:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Now you have me curious what an edile/aedile was in London in that era. Our article (and basically everything turned up in a cursory web search) seems to be focused on the Roman office. The only mention relating to late 16thC England is about a mention of the office in a Shakespeare play. -- Avocado (talk) 23:08, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@Avocado: "two justices of the peace at the least, whereof one to be of the Quorum, where and in what shire they shall happen to wander." according to Thorndike, Ashley Horace (1916). Shakespeare's Theater. New York: The Macmillan Company. p. 204., which is the source the French article uses. DuncanHill (talk) 23:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for your answers. Égoïté (talk) 18:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)