Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 October 25

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October 25

Mbida-Mbane / Syllables

Do the Ms count as individual syllables? (I've always assumed that the number of syllables is proportionate to the number of vowel sounds.) Also, how exactly are these words pronounced? I've been going "mm-bihd-ah mm-bah-nay".

While we're at it, is the "kyo" in Kyoto and Tokyo one syllable (I'm thinking it is since they're both one syllable given the kanji, but that could just be because the Japanese think it's once syllable ;) - just making sure), and if so, would the "yo" be classified as a diphthong? Edit: Under Italian I found "/jo/ as in fiore", so I guess that's the same thing, eh? Corporal 00:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the M is part of a consonant cluster. The K used to be pronounced in the words for knight and knave; you just pronounce the M the same way you pronounce the S in street.

See prenasalized consonant. 惑乱 分からん 11:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The kyo in Kyoto is a long syllable. No diphthongs in Standard Modern Japanese, AFAIK. --Kjoonlee 03:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Phonetically, kyo is long. I'm a bit confused about Japanese syllables myself, but if you pronounce "kyo" twice as long as "to" when speaking to Japanese people, I think you'll be safe. --Kjoonlee 05:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The "to" in Tokyo should be twice as long as the "to" in Kyoto. --Kjoonlee 09:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Approximately. Pronouncing long constructions (I don't want to say "syllables") exactly twice as long as short ones will make you sound overly technical or as if you were intentionally speaking clearer, though there's nothing wrong with that. I don't want to be too specific but lately I'm starting to think it's better to describe long vowels in common speech as being "more than 1.5 times as long and often quite heavy".  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  13:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Secret Code

my friend sent me a code by email that she said you needed to use the keyboard to solve.I'm don't have a clue what it says or how to solve it.Here is the phrase she sent me: tiy pew p fewpr deuwbs I realise that this isn't an important question,but it's driving me crazy!Any ideas?124.187.148.227 03:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a simple code - just replace each letter in the code with the letter to the right of it on your keyboard. For the letter P, you'll need to go on to the next row. I won't tell you what it says because it might be more fun to figure it out yourself, but it's a nice message. (To make your own message in the same code, replace each letter in your message with the one to the left of it on the keyboard.) --Grace 04:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Pronouncing other languages

Do you know of a website that has a basic fake-your-way-through-it pronounciation guide for a few different foreign languages, especially French? I'm a radio DJ and I'd like to be able to take a stab at pronouncing the names of some of these foreign songs so I don't sound like a fool on air. (When I have no clue, I usually treat it like Spanish, the one foreign language I can pronounce...which is probably dumb.) Oh and while I'm here, I want to know how to say Lempicka, as in Tamara de Lempicka or the perfume Lolita Lempicka. --Grace 04:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

People in English-speaking countries probably say "Lem-picka", but in Poland it would have been closer to "Wem-pits-ka". JackofOz 05:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

So now at least I know I'm pronouncing it incorrectly. :) --Grace 00:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

If they're songs, isn't the title sung in them? Or is that not a good indication for how to pronounce it in normal speech? DirkvdM 06:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes that helps, but sometimes they don't sing the title or I have to introduce the song before I've heard it. (At 4ZZZ, announcers determine their own playlists and often I'm experimenting with stuff I've never heard before.) --Grace 00:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that you use the following system: acapela. It is reliable enough for your purposes, I tested it in a number of languages. --Lgriot 09:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I ran across this website before, seems fairly decent. It's actually geared towards radio announcers, although in classical music. But since classical musicians don't prounounce their names differently than other ones, it should still be of some use :) --BluePlatypus 10:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Lgriot and BluePlatypus! Those sites look really helpful and fun! --Grace 00:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

differance between hai & hello

Hellow guys my friend told me hellow is more respectfull word than hai.that is why we are using the word hellow in phones while starting as a formality.Is it correct or not? please explain correctly if it's true. advance thanks for your reply.

• "Hello" is more formal and therefore more polite."Hi" would be what you said to a friend.I've put the correct spelling to help you if you want to look it up somewhere.(hotclaws**== 11:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC))

• I use them alternately when greeting people, to avoid sounding repetitive. StuRat 18:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• And just to make things more confusing (for our second-language learner), in North America, "hey" is often used in the same way as "hi"; maybe a bit folksier, maybe a bit more assertive, maybe more casual. Probably adapted into North American English from Scandinavian hei, which is used in the same way as "hello".Skookum1 18:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In North America, I think "hey" is less formal than "hi". I might say "hi" to my boss's boss's boss, but probably only if he said "hi" to me first. I would be more likely to say "hello" if I had to initiate a greeting. I would never say "hey". It would be insulting, as if I were putting him on my level. Unless you know who is calling, it is better to answer the phone "hello". Marco polo 21:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Formality (High to low):

1. (Good) Morning/Afternoon/Evening
2. Hello
3. Hi
4. Hey
5. What(s)up
6. Yo
7. *grunt*

If I missed anything feel free to add it in. --AstoVidatu 22:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe there was also "hallo", a now obsolete version of "hello". StuRat 00:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

And of course, ahoy-hoy, if you happen to be Alexander Graham Bell. Or Mr Burns. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 09:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

"Howdy" is another one. Laurən^whisper 16:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

...not to mention "how do you do" missing from the very top of the list...—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I would also include 'Greetings' somewhere on that list.

Blair's accent

Is it my imagination, or is Tony Blair developing an American English accent? DirkvdM 11:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well a lot of people think that he is spending far too much time with Bush, so maybe :-). More seriously, I have been in the UK for 6.5 years, and I have not noticed any difference over the years, but I am not a native speaker of English, so don't rely only on my opinion. --Lgriot 12:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

To me (from the West Midlands) Blair sounds as though he's speaking Estuary English, but not doing so naturally; in other words, he's deliberately using glottal stops and the like. I find it extremely irritating precisely because of that sense that it's not his true accent but one he's adopted for "effect". I don't think it's particularly American in sound, though. Loganberry (Talk) 16:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

To an American, this is fascinating. If his Estuary accent is faked, I'm guessing that his native accent is the standard upper-middle class accent, something like "received pronunciation." It is fascinating to me as an American, because some of our own politicians, notably GW Bush, have fake accents. If you listen to GW Bush and his brother, Jeb Bush, who is governor of Florida, their accents are completely different, even though they are close in age. Even though GW has wealthy Northeastern parents and spent many of his formative years at private schools in the Northeast, he has adopted an exaggerated Texas accent so as to sound more folksy. Apparently, just like Tony's affectedly common Estuary accent. Marco polo 16:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think GWB is smart enough to be able to fake an accent. He can't even learn to speak properly in one accent, much less two. StuRat 18:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

From my own anecdotal experience, this is a known phenomena. I knew a some brothers from Danville, Virginia who were roughly the same age and grew up together. By college age, one brother had a typical generic American accent that would fit in with white middle class people from say DC. The other brother had a very strong southern accent, typical of the white working class of Danville. I'm not sure what their accents were like growing up, but its clear that they grew apart (so maybe this happened with the Bush brothers).--Andrew c 02:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Blair's background is a bit mixed, but his natural accent should be a mix of Jock and Geordie; not the "standard upper-middle class accent". It rarely emerges; I think his pronunciation of some words, such as "services" is revealing. I agree he's gone a bit Estuary in recent years, possibly to enhance a "my mate Tony" effect. Then again, accents can be affected by those around you and have you ever heard Alastair Campbell speak? --Dweller 17:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd assume Jock refers to some Scottish-like accent? I had only heard about the word as a pejorative form for "athlete" (from Hollywood movies) before... 惑乱 分からん 17:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sorry for ambiguity. "Jocks and Geordies" is often used as a pair of terms; there used to be a cartoon strip (in The Dandy?) with that name... if I remember right, it was usually about a punch-up! --Dweller 18:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is amazing. We have an article The Jocks and the Geordies. --Dweller 18:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

On a trivial note, I have always loved hearing Blair warn the nation of the threat of "chemicaw an' biologicaw weapons". If I didn't hate the man, I'd say it was quite cute...=) doktorb _words^deeds 18:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

That's possibly because he spent some years in Australia, specifically South Australia. The "crow eaters" are renowned for swallowing their els. JackofOz 21:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that's why. Not only are there English dialects that undergo /l/ → [w] across the world, but it's a common speech impediment. I had an astronomy professor do it inconsistantly. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I ask this based on hearing him talk in parliament yesterday. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, apart from pronouncing a 't' like a 'd'. DirkvdM 09:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, flapping isn't strictly confined to North American English. It's also found in Australian English. But I didn't think it was present in any UK variant. Maybe it's just part of Blair's idiolect. Bhumiya (said/done) 15:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

This tap or flap R is a major element in accents of Northern Ireland and Wales. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Accentjim (talk • contribs) 22:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Hanja (Unihan Z-variant)

If U+76E7 is a Z-variant of U+F933 (as says the latter), why isn't U+F933 also marked as a Z-variant of U+76E7? Aren't they variants of each other? The abundance of data given for U+76E7 seems to suggest that it is the more widespread or somehow standard form of the two.

I fail to discern any difference between the two concerning appearance; see pictures U+F933, U+76E7. Are they distinct glyphs? If not, why have they been made two distinct characters? Has U+F933 been added later to fix some mistake? The Chinese, Japanese and Korean WP articles on the president all seem to use the same character.

U+76E7 has the value “LO” in the Phonetic Data / Sino-Korean field and “노 로” in the Other Data / kHangul field, whereas U+F933 has “NO” in the Phonetic Data / Sino-Korean field, and “노” in Other Data / kHangul. I assume the differences are a mistake.

With Microsoft's Korean IME, you can compose 로 and convert it to hanja, and then 노 and convert it to what appears to be the same hanja, but end up with two different characters. I cannot reproduce it since I use Ubuntu. Might that IME quirk be related to Unicode's confusion about the hanja's phonetic value?

Is there any place to look up what justified the decision to grant a particular shape its identity as a distinct character variant? Thanks in advance. Wikipeditor 16:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I should ask over at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Computing, although I guess this is a better place to find people who can answer CJK-related questions. Wikipeditor 18:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I think there was some related discussions at http://kldp.org/node/74311 recently; You might want to ask at the libhangul project's mailing lists. --Kjoonlee 02:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Ro and No are South Korean variants due to what's called the 두음법칙 (law of initials) in traditional Korean phonotactics; you can't have a /l/ sound at the start of a word. --Kjoonlee 03:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Word-initial /l/ is usually deleted or pronounced as [n]. In loanwords, or in some family names, it is pronounced as [ɾ]. --Kjoonlee 03:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I knew about that law, but the Unicode data sheet suggests that the two varieties differ in pronunciation. Perhaps there are rare cases where the hanja does not start a word, yet is still pronounced as 노? And to account for that irregularity, Unicode invented U+F933 which looks the same but does never change to 로? That still wouldn't explain the IME quirk. Wikipeditor 00:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

For original documents about Unihan decisionmaking, try the site of the Ideographic Rapporteur Group, which manages the Unihan process. --Cam 03:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, it's normal to have lookalikes with different Korean pronunciations. A slightly different example: 부정(不定) and 불능(不能) both start with "the same Hanja" but have different pronunciations. --Kjoonlee 03:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

MediaWiki doesn't seem to like the Hanja I used for 부정. In numerical references: 不定 --Kjoonlee 07:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I knew about hanja with more than one hangul value, but is the hanja in question really a case like 不, that is, a morphophonologically different beast rather than your usual 두음법칙? If U+F933's phonological behaviour is indeed different from U+F933's (the latter always pronounced 노), then that might have been the reason for making it a distinct character. Wikipeditor 00:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the links. Wikipeditor 00:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Alphabetical order

Several questions:

• When was the A-Z alphabetical order (for sorting, etc.) first established ?

• How did we end up with one universally accepted order, versus many competing systems ?

• Do other alphabets (Greek, Latin, Cyrillic, etc.) also have a universally accepted order ?

• How about systems which use a different symbol for each word, do they have any universally accepted sorting order ?

StuRat 17:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, but there is a similar question here.--Shantavira 18:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Greek and Cyrillic do have fixed orders, similar origin so it's related to the Latin order (Well, the Greek was first, actually). For the other question, see Collation#Radical-and-stroke_sorting. (Chinese is probably the only remaining language today with a fully working non-alphabetical system.) 惑乱 分からん 19:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps our current redirect from alphabetical order to collation should be made into a full article, to incorporate much of the history of the use of alphabetical order. StuRat 19:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• See History of the alphabet. Basically, the alphabets have probably had an order from the start. The actual A-Z type of order goes back to the Phoenician alphabet, and is roughly the same in all its decendants including Greek, Latin, Cyrillic, Arabic and Hebrew. --BluePlatypus 19:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

"Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?" --LarryMac 20:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Is that a serious question? Because the alphabet obviously came before the song for it. ;) --AstoVidatu 21:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Unlike for ut–re–mi–fa–sol.  --Lambiam^Talk 22:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Some other examples:

• Kana (for Japanese writing) used to be ordered according to the iroha poem, but nowadays the gojūon order is used instead
• Hangul (for Korean writing) is ordered differently in North and South Korea
• Runic alphabets sometimes use slightly different ordering

--Kjoonlee 06:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

When I was learning Russian in the late 70s and early 80s, I was told (a) the order of the Cyrillic alphabet has become more or less settled only relatively recently, and (b) Russian children typically do not know the order off by heart, apparently because the Russian educational system places less emphasis on knowing alphabetical order than is the case in anglophone countries. I know (a) is right because there was quite a bit of alphabet reform around the first couple of decades of the 20th century. But is (b) true? There are some Cyrillic letters that never start a word; however, knowing alphabetical order, at least for the remaining letters, would seem essential for everyday things like looking up names in a phone book. JackofOz 10:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

My first thought is that it shouldn't be impossible to learn alphabetical order, once you grow a little older... 惑乱 分からん 11:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The alphabet song, silly as it may seem, has no doubt led to almost universal knowledge of the A-Z alphabetical order in English. I still find myself singing it in my head whenever sorting things alphabetically (like a bullet list in Wikipedia). StuRat 16:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think (a) is correct. Here's a 1707 Russian alphabet - there are a few small changes, but it's still the same general order. I don't know if it's the first, but even if it was, it wouldn't differ from most European languages, where the first "ABC" books were usually printed in the 17th-18th centuries. --BluePlatypus 13:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, BP. That is what I was talking about. Even a very slight change to an alphabetical order is significant. The "theta" at the end was not just replaced with ф, but moved to after the у. The weird b with a stroke through its stem, near the end, was replaced with e, near the front. And a pile of other letters have been removed entirely since Lomonosov's time. JackofOz 01:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Significant how? I don't quite follow what the context is? I don't think the changes to the order of Russian cyrillic are significant within the broader context of comparing the order of different alphabets. The phoenician-derived alphabets are still more alike with regards to order than they are dislike. I'd indeed say they're almost as alike as they can be, given the necessary constraint that they don't represent the exact same sounds. OTOH if your point was that the exact present-day order of Russian was standardized later than the current-day order of English, then I've no disagreement. (Other than that I think you need to acknowledge the bigger similarities before focusing on the smaller differences) --BluePlatypus 19:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hangul seems to follow the same "basical" order in North and South, but "variant" forms are sorted at the end in north and directly following the "basic" form in South. See Hangul consonant and vowel tables, it's similar to the difference between German and Swedish, German is A,Ä,B-O,Ö,P-U,Ü,V-Z Swedish is A-Z,Å,Ä,Ö. 惑乱 分からん 11:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Movie Title namesake

I believe there is a word used to describe the moment in a movie (or play, or novel) when the title of the work is used, whether in conversation or otherwise. Does such a word exist? Thank you very much for your help.138.202.120.54 19:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)msm

Other than the generic self-reference, I do not believe there is one. This is a term only used in a cinematic or literary work? -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 23:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This sounds rather unlikely, considering that (a) a play or movie usually gets its final title some time after it is written and (b) the title might be used many times (e.g. if it's a character's name) or (as seems to be the norm) not at all.--Shantavira 09:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)