Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 October 28

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October 28

Marnus

There's an ad on at the moment in New Zealand which uses the word "marnus" (munnace? pronounced munn-iss). Urban dictionary says it is what you call someone after they do something foolish, but this seems like it's just been taken from context in the ad. Someone else said it meant anus in Maori. It doesn't sound like a Maori word though. Does anyone have any insight into its origin and/or meaning? Aaadddaaammm 02:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it's from the Maori language - all Maori words end in a vowel. It looks as though people are using the spelling 'manus', try this search: [1]. Natgoo 10:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation of "unwonted"

Is there a difference in pronounciation between "unwonted" and "unwanted"? --HappyCamper 02:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

There can be: unwonted but you may pronounce them the same. Is there a difference in the vowel the way you say won-ton and wanted? Pronounce it the way you would pronounce won-ton. -THB 03:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Not for me: I pronounce the first syllable of 'won-ton' and 'wanted' the same, but '(un)wonted' like 'won't'. (I'm in Britain.) --ColinFine 12:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm from California and I pronounce them differently. In IPA, it's [ʌnˈwɑntɨd] and [ʌnˈwʌntɨd] respectively.

Right Usage

Hi, I am confused about the usage of the words 'speak/spoke'in the context of talking to someone. Kindly let me know what is the right way; 'speak with/spoke with' or 'speak to/spoke to'? Regards....

This should probably be the same as "talk", which Americans apparently use with "with" but the British use "to". See Differences_between_American_and_British_English#Different_prepositions_in_certain_contexts -- the GREAT Gavini 06:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

What? I won't address the accuracy of that page, but what you just said is completely false (at least regarding American usage, which is all I know). The following are all completely natural and commonly heard in American usage: "Talk to me!" "Hey, I wasn't talking to you, buddy." "You talkin' to me?" "I will not be spoken to in that tone!" In fact, I'd say that "talk to" is more common than "talk with" in generic contexts in American English.

To answer the original question, both are correct. The idea given below, that "spoke with" is two-way while "spoke to" is one-way, may be helpful but can also be misleading. For example, a man might say to his wife, "I spoke to my boss today about that raise, and he thinks XXX." Clearly the conversation was not one-way, since an employee cannot dictate to his boss; it is the boss's side of the conversation that is important here. One possible implication of "spoke to", as in this sentence, is raising a topic in conversation. A principal to a parent: "I would appreciate it if you would speak to your son about alcohol abuse [because I think he might have a problem].

If you happen to be learning English, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that this is a very subtle and difficult point (as questions involving phrasal verbs often are); there is no simple rule that tells you which to use, and the only real way to use them naturally is to keep learning the language and listening to as much native speech as you can. The good news, however, is that since both are OK, no matter which one you use, you won't be wrong. At the worst, it may sound a little unnatural, but in any situation either phrase might be said by a native speaker.

One final note: if you are only talking about normal conversation, in general "talking" will be more natural than "speaking"; as a tendency (not a rule), "speaking" is used for things that are a little farther from your typical boring everyday conversation. Hope some of this helps. Tesseran 10:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

"Speaking with" someone implies a two-way conversation, while "speaking to" someone (or even worse, "speaking at" someone) implies one-way communication from you to them only. StuRat 07:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

You can also give someone a 'talking to', meaning you'll 'put them straight', during which they are not supposed to say anything back. There's another term; 'talk back', which can mean something like youthful rebellious behavoour. When a father gives his son a good talking to, the son is not suposed to talk back, but even the reverse can be true. When a father (casually) tells his son to do something and the son talks back, the father might give him a good talking to. DirkvdM 07:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

A nonnative English speaker giving advice on English ? Well, you seem to have gotten it right this time, aside from your rather unconventional spellings of "behavoour" and "suposed". :-) StuRat 14:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I might be biased, but I don't think that that necessarily will lead to incorrect usage. Also, it could possibly be helpful looking at the language with an outsider's eyes. 惑乱 分からん 14:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Whereas in American English "with" and "to" can be used interchangeably, indeed, as surmised above by the GREAT Gavini, "speak/spoke to" has a strong preference in British English, just as for "talk".  --Lambiam^Talk 11:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

You call Joe's number and somebody else picks up the phone. Do you say "May I speak to Joe, please" or "May I speak with Joe, please"? In Australia, it's probably 95% for to, and 5% for with, even though in most cases you would intend to have a dialogue with Joe rather than providing him with a monologue. Funny that. JackofOz 05:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Grammar Determiner

Please explain the complete definition of using determiner: The Philippines. Thank you

Welcome to Wikipedia. You can easily look up this topic yourself. Please see determiner. For future questions, try using the search box at the top left of the screen. It's much quicker, and you will probably find a clearer answer. If you still don't understand, add a further question below by clicking the "edit" button to the right of your question title. .--Shantavira 09:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Mystery insect? Noun?

I'm trying to find out what a certain word means that was scribbled inside a toilet I saw today. It was written in Japanese (赤ジルマ), but I'm quite sure it's not a Japanese word, and from the context I can gather that it is likely a type of insect. Due to the way transliteration works in Japanese, I can only reduce it to the following possible names:

red jilma, red gilma, red geelma, red jeelma, red girma, red jirma, red geerma, red jeerma

None of those appear to be anything real... does this ring a bell for anyone? IYRWTK, the full inscription translates something like "All the aka-jiruma of the world, begone! Filthy parasites!"  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  09:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently there was an 8 year-old in Texas in 1910 named "Red Gilma", but there's no connection : P.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  09:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Are we sure it couldn't just be germ? (I know next to nothing about Japanese.) Tesseran 10:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The "germ theory" has some merits. How else would you transliterate "germ" in kana? The ジ could be also the transliteration of "zi". Not that that seems to help to make sense of the message.  --Lambiam^Talk 12:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Searching for ジルマ on the web gave me info on Mahou Sentai Magiranger. --Kjoonlee 13:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of the hits have some connection with magic. On this webpage of a sushi place blog I find for last Sunday a posting with heading ジルマで塩辛 and text 焼津の定置網のジルマ〔するめイカ〕で、今日は塩辛つくろかな！ Perhaps this gives you a clue. I'm copying it over because I don't know how long it will stay. There is also a company named La Jiruma.  --Lambiam^Talk 14:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese Wikipedia also gives Mahou Sentai Magiranger, note that everything written in Katakana isn't a loanword from English, though, and I guess Japanese toilet slang could come from just about anywhere... Could be some schizophrene/psychotic hobo scribblings, for what I know... 惑乱 分からん 14:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Could it be an anti-communist message, since they are often called "reds". The phrase would become "All the red germs of the world, begone! Filthy parasites !". StuRat 14:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we can be sure it's related to germs. Japanese has 菌 (fungi/bacteria), 細菌 (bacteria), and 微生物 (microbe) but none of them are pronounced like [dʒəm] or [dʒam]. --Kjoonlee 18:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought about "germ" for a minute, but the trailing -ma implies it may be the word "germ" in a language other than English such as German (not a pun, but suprisingly punnish!) or Portugese, though I don't think "germa" is a real word in either. "Red germ" doesn't really make sense anyways. I don't think it has anything to do with Mahou Sentai Magiranger either, or at least I can't seem to make sense with it in such a context. Google searches give up random links to a lot of different things, but nothing to "aka-jiruma", so I'm totally at a loss.

One of my roomates thinks it could be a nickname for someone, but he admits that's only because he usually assumes strange words like that are usually nicknames when he can't understand them; a reasonable strategy I guess.

"Red Zelma" seems to be the name of a racing horse in 1999, and Tokyoites are definitely into horse racing... so I guess this could be a possiblity. It's very unlikely that the graffiti was left over from 1999 though, as it was a very new washroom, and "Zelma" wouldn't even be spelled properly. Ah, this may be too thick of a nut to crack.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  09:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Is the cuttlefish shiokara connection a dead end? I think the sushi blog text means something like: "Shiokara from jiruma / Jiruma (cuttlefish squid) from the fixed shore nets of Yaizu". Not that I could venture a guess why the poor red[2] cuttlefish should be lambasted for being filthy parasites.  --Lambiam^Talk 20:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

They look somewhat phallic... =S 惑乱 分からん 01:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

nickname pompey

why is pompey the nickname for portsmouth?

You could start with http://www.pompeyweb.co.uk/misc.htm. Google is your friend. --ColinFine 12:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, it's the anclicized version of Pompeius, a popular name among Roman generals and Charles XII's dogs. --BluePlatypus 18:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)