Language desk
< May 18	<< Apr \| May \| Jun >>	May 20 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 19

fart monkey's were here :-P

what is the origin of the phrase:"easy as tit"? being used in a sentence might sound like this, "i know how to build that, it's easy as tit." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.48.155 (talk) 00:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen that before. I remember the British Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force used to say "press the tit" for 'press the button', and you used to hear it a lot in service families, but it's old-fashioned now. (I seem to remember it's in the Camillagate tapes.) No doubt "easy as tit" could stand for 'easy as pressing the tit', or even 'easy as breast-feeding'? Xn4 19:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The word "professional" as accolade in products

We all have seen it: in many products there is the "home" version and the "professional" version. It still makes some sense in the case of tools or similar objects. However, shortly I found the word in a sunscreen lotion. What the hell does "professional" sunscreen mean? 217.168.4.241 (talk) 01:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It could mean:

(a) it can only be applied by professionals

(b) it can only be applied on professionals

(c) it must only be applied by professionals on professionals

(d) they can charge more Clarityfiend (talk) 03:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(d) is the reason, usually. Neıl 龱 10:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a ref, merely OR observation. The term migrated out of the home improvement market where "contractor grade" indicated a better quality product than their usual DIY fare. The better grade of course meant they'd charge a higher price. The marketers expanded the idea and then ran into products for which "contractor" didn't quite fit. They went to "professional grade". The "grade" fell by the wayside and whether products labeled "professional" these days merit that label under any definition is debatable. It certainly serves to differentiate the product. --Lisa4edit (talk) 22:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And puffery. OR here too, but as differentiation, it's used in hair salons for products only available from them as opposed to supermarkets. The buzz in this case is to imply access to goods endorsed by an inner circle of trained people. No idea if there's a way of checking, though. And yes, they are much more expensive. So maybe an (e) previously only available to professionals (*wink*).Julia Rossi (talk) 23:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But a product for professional suntanning? I've only ever heard of one professional tanner, and that was a cartoon character. — Michael J 11:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Professional suntanning probably goes on in commercial tanning salons, so for professional you could read "commercial", but if they put commercial then it's got dodgy inferences, so professional is the promo tag of choice. Advertising lies, as you know, it's lies all lies, mwahaha.... Julia Rossi (talk) 23:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, you're quite right Michael J, many professionally tanned persons look like Zonker Harris. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Somali lectures

A Somali friend of mine give me a list of Somali topics to watch on youtube.com but the problem is I don't speak Somali nor do I understand Somali. Please, if you are a Somali, tell me what are titles mean in Somali? That way, I can have a little understand what is the speaker talking about.

These are the titles: 1. haweenta Saalixada 2. Awoodaha Ilaah Na Siiyey Ee Aan Dayacney 3. Shirqoolka Gaalada 4. Xiriirka Aduunyada Aakhiro La Leedahay 5. Fahamka Siyaasadda Sharciga 6. Quraanka iyo Seyniska 7. Taarikhdii Andulus 8. Hamiga Qofka Muslimka 9. Awoodaha Aynu Dayacnay 10. Fahamka Nolosha

Please take your time to answer this question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.119.204 (talk) 03:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How do you pronounce this?

I need help with a report I'm giving in a few days and I don't know how to pronounce the word "androstenedione". If anyone could please give me the idiot's version of the pronunciation, I would be deeply grateful. Nolarboot (talk) 13:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sportscasters on TV all seem to pronounce it "an-droh-STEEN-dy-ohn." Deor (talk) 13:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The OED gives /ˌændrɒstiːnˈdaɪəʊn/, which (if I understand your pronunciation-respelling) agrees with you except for stress and the second vowel. Mirriam-Webster gives \ˌan-drə-ˌstēn-ˈdī-ōn\ or \ˌan-drə-ˈstēn-dē-ˌōn\, which has the same stress as yours, but different second and fourth vowels. Algebraist 14:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If Nolarboot is in the United States, going with the first Merriam-Webster pronunciation seems the best bet ("idiot's version": AN-druh-STEEN-DY-ohn). I'm pretty sure that sportscasters say it the way I specified, though. As a Cardinals fan, I rather closely followed the Mark McGwire business a few years ago. Deor (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the form in which I gave the pronunciation follows the system used in The World Book Encyclopedia—not intended for idiots, perhaps, but for youngsters and other folk who are not familiar with IPA or with the various diacritics used in other systems of representing pronunciations. The guy who came up with what appears below, however … well, I don't know what to say. Deor (talk) 03:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

it's and-drunk // stem-enter // dean-lawn.70.7.54.99 (talk) 01:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Using an apostrophe to indicate possesion

What if the person's name ends in "S"? For example, is it User:Strawless' information or User:Strawless's information? I remember learning that it's the former but is this correct? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 15:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Either one is acceptable - just pick one and stick to it. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 15:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Different answer, equally valid: If you would pronounce the extra "s" in speech, use it, otherwise no. So, Mr. Hollis's car ran over Moses' cat. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Chicago Manual of Style and all of the publishers for which I have worked (all in the United States) call for an apostrophe and an s for the possessive of nouns (including proper nouns) ending in s, except for classical and biblical names. So Mr. Hollis's, but Moses'. Marco polo (talk) 20:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For goodness's sake, Marco, it's not that simple. What about Descartes' politics and the Ganges' aroma? We're trying to give a pat answer to a complicated question. Zain, buy a stylebook and cleave to it. --Milkbreath (talk) 21:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, guys - quite interesting. What's a classical name and why would biblical and classical names be treated differently? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes, if you don't sound another s: for instance, we say "Jesus' name". By the way, I also noticed that Zain Ebrahim wrote "Strawless' information" and like Milkbreath and Marco polo I prefer Strawless's, but Zain was on my side and I bit my tongue. Strawless (talk) 21:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry - it's corrected. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's complicated, but Marco polo's rule of thumb is good. The default option is to add the 's, such as Dickens's, James's. Classical names (and Latinate) (such as Caesar Augustus') often do not take the apostrophe, although in some cases it is appropriate, because that it how it is said (such as Zeus's, although Zeus' is also accepted). And when talking about the planets (ie classical names in a non-classical context), then Mars's atmosphere is preferred. Biblical names are less standard, you will see both Jesus' and Jesus's, and St. James's is standard. The Oxford guide recommends apostrophe-s after silent s and z, eg Descartes's. Since there is no easy answer, Milkbreath's advice to get a style guide is good, but if you haven't got one to hand, then think about how you say it. Also read Apostrophe#Singular nouns ending with an "s" or "z" sound and the following section on Nouns ending with silent "s", "x", or "z". (As to why Classical and Biblical being exceptions? Tradition, and because they follow classical formats. It'll probably change, in time, much as the standard forms have. I was taught at school that James' was correct, and that's not all that long ago.) Gwinva (talk) 22:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In truth, there is no single "right" answer to this. To make it worse, the usual fallback of ~~pluralising~~ apostrophising consistently in the same text doesn't always apply, because I'd write "King James' attitude to the Court of St James's was <whatever>". -- JackofOz (talk) 23:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'Pluralising'? I thought we were talking about genitive here? Or was that a reference to a court specifically for a number of people all called St.James, like the John Smith Society?ChokinBako (talk) 04:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. My brain went to sleep. Fixed. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does that reflect how you say it? i.e. "King James attitude to the Court of Saint Jameses"? Gwinva (talk) 01:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think in this case, it is the addition of the 'of' that makes us add the extra 's', in the same way that we say 'a friend of mine' and not 'a friend of my'. However, I have seen place names like St. James's Square and so on. I'd stick with the no 's' thing when final 's' is pronounced, as that is what I was taught in school.ChokinBako (talk) 04:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

red fruits

Several times in the book describing wines I met the term "red fruits" flavor. In Wikipedia there is description of some exotic tropical "red fruit" that, I presume,is consumed very rarely in the Old and New Worlds. Hardly the author used such term to describe the wine to the readers, who never ate such fruit. Then what is considered to be "red fruits"? We never use such term in Russia. Thank you.--88.84.200.1 (talk) 15:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Finewine's glossary defines red fruit as a "Broad catchall term for red wines with mixed flavors of apples, raspberries, strawberries, etc., and quite typical of Languedoc reds, among others" and black fruit as "A catchall term for mixed black-cherry, blackberry, plum and similar fruit aromas, commonplace in many good red wines." ---Sluzzelin talk 16:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

English spelling of "Masters thesis"

I'd like to know to spell the word "Masters" in "Masters degree", "Masters thesis", or "Master of Sciences" in English. Do you always need to capitalize it like wikt:Masters, wikt:masters, Master's degree in Europe seems to imply, or can it be lower case like masters degree uses it? (wikt:master's degree was created recently, but it used to have two redlinks from translations.) Does it need an apostrophe before or after the s? If it depends on the phrase or context it's used in, how? Thanks in advance for any help. – b_jonas 15:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The apostrophe before the "s" is required: master's degree. Both words will almost always be lowercase. It is possible but odd to write "John Jones, Master of Arts" where it would be usual to write "John Jones, MA", in which case both words would be capitalized, but I can't think of any other case where they would be. Note that the Wikipedia software automatically capitalizes the first word in a search string, so that when you type "masters" it turns that into "Masters" before it looks for it; you can tell that that happened by looking at the redirect. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your answer. I know about the software capitalizing the titles, but I've looked at how these words are spelled inside the article, and also in en.wiktionary there's a separate article for Masters and masters. – b_jonas 20:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Use is a bit inconsistent e.g. [1] and [2], or [3] and [4] vs. [5].71.236.23.111 (talk) 05:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Say this!", or "Say that!"

What's the difference between "please say this!" and "please say that!" ? HOOTmag (talk) 20:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Easy, one points to this and the other to that. Strawless (talk) 21:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let me explain:

How should I say: "Good evening! Now, after I said that to you, it's your turn to say that to me", or: "Good evening! Now, after I said this to you, it's your turn to say this to me".

Is there any difference bewteen the meanings of both sentences?

HOOTmag (talk) 21:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When words are not used in their literal meaning things can get confusing. We used to chuckle as kids about where "up the road" and "down the road" lead depending on who was giving directions. As a demonstrative pronoun the rule of thumb is that "this" is close to the speaker and "that" is remote from the speaker. If you'd apply that to your phrase you might say: "Good evening! Now, after I said this to you, it's your turn to say that to me". The reason would be that what I say is "closer to me" than what you say. Our linguists might come up with a perfectly logical reason for any of the 3 options. In everyday use I don't think it matters that much. To avoid any awkwardness you could use "Good evening! Now, after I said this to you, it's your turn to respond with ... (this may get you into a vocab level that's above your students' head, though.) --Lisa4edit (talk) 22:26, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your rule works very well with: I, you, and we. However, I suspect it can't be applied with he/she: According to Google, "He said this, but..." (22,200 times) is much more frequent than "He said that, but..." (9,860 times only). "She said this, but..." (5,110 times) is much more frequent than "She said that, but..." (935 times only). By the way, I searched it with "but" coming after the "this/that" - in order to avoid the ambiguity of "that" (e.g. in "He said that he was happy"). HOOTmag (talk) 08:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is whether the phrase is hanging in the air, so to speak, and still current ("this"), or said and done away with ("that"). Also, the second demonstrative would be replaced with "it". kwami (talk) 03:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Look at the following sentences: "We're in a hurry, and you should understand that", versus: "We're in a hurry, and you should understand this"; What's better? Should our hurriness be considered as a declaration "still current and hanging in the air"? Would you like to give an example for a phrase which is "still current and hanging in the air", and an opposite example?

2. why just the second demonstrative should be replaced by "it" and not the first one? Is there any rule here? and how about "we're in a hurry, and you should understand it" ?

HOOTmag (talk) 08:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't look at the example closely enough. In the case of a response with the same phrase, what kwami said would apply. However, watch out if your example is something like "Thank you" and "You're welcome." Then "it" wouldn't work. --71.236.23.111 (talk) 05:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kwami referred to the case of a response with the same phrase. HOOTmag (talk) 08:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 19

Contents