Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 November 16

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November 16

Classical Greek Literature in Original

Hello - I am in search of classical greek literature - for starters, Plato and Homer -

whether on wiki or not

Interlinear translation would be great!

Thanks in advance!

-Jermey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.78.202 (talk) 01:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Try Loeb Classical Library off-wiki...Wikisource probably has some too. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Perseus Project has a lot of Greek literature available online, as well as translations, parsers, and lexica. It's quite useful for working through the originals (though don't pay the parser much heed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.99.119 (talk) 04:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

seeking a word by providing a definition

I taught my son a new word that I found while reading Wiki earlier today and now cannot remember the word. One of the definitions was something to the effect of "Pertaining to a larger group" as in Coke can be a generic term meaning "soda" or "pop". The word was very difficult to pronounce and ended in a "so-dew-kay" type sound. Any assistance would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.168.130 (talk) 08:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the word you are thinking of is Synecdoche. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

That's it! Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.168.130 (talk) 09:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity: did your son remember the word? And how old is he, roughly? BrainyBabe (talk) 11:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Generic term for "Weeble"

Please see my query on the Weeble Talk page about the earlier, generic term for these toys, often in human (e.g. clown) form, whose weighted, rounded base allows them to right themselves after being knocked down. I'll need the British English and U.S. English variants (if these differ), with the object of creating a page corresponding to the German Wikipedia's Stehaufmännchen rather than a derivative commercial product. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 11:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Pages such as this and this suggest that roly-poly (or unhyphenated roly poly) is used as a generic name for these. (Google for "roly poly" +toy and "roly poly" +clown for numerous other examples.) Unfortunately, in a cursory search I was unable to find any record of this usage in dictionaries. Deor (talk) 12:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: Here and here are uses in reliable secondary sources, at least. (I have the second book on my shelves but had not recalled this occurring in it.) Others turn up in a Google Books search. Deor (talk) 13:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Note: I've continued this discussion on Deborahjay's user page, at User talk:Deborahjay#Tumbler. Deor (talk) 20:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Obsession with mice

As I'm reading Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck, I've been wondering, what is the appropriate term for Lennie's obsession with mice? Fear of mice would be musophobia... so would its opposite be musophilia? I appreciate the help! Vic93 (t/c) 16:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

That would be a general love of mice. An obsession with them might be musomania. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll give a purist response, a little out of tune with the commonest practice. The best-formed words would be with Greek elements only: myophobia, myomania. If Latin must be grafted onto the Greek -phobia and -mania, the Latin portion should use the stem mur- (as in the English words murine, muric), not the nominative form mus: murophobia, muromania.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't that be mistaken for a fear of/obsession with ants? -- JackofOz (talk) 03:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

No, that would be myrmecophobia/-mania. But it could be mistaken for a fear of/obsession with muscles. —Angr 11:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Not fear of/obsession with walls? 80.123.210.172 (talk) 14:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Only last year - having purchased a pin cushion from my local supplier for Voodoo paraphernalia, and after having diligently inserted numerous pins into said pin cushion - I was diagnosed as suffering from a severe case of musophobia. Mind you, I had called my pin cushion "Cleo"... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Lamina

Hi! I found in some online dictionaries that the translation of the Latin word lamina is, among others, ghost, phantom. However I'm not very confident about it because a lot of other sources (and all the cartaceous books I consulted) don't even refer to it. So, does Lamina mean ghost? What's its origin? Here are some links to sites translating lamina to ghost.

http://ghost.idoneos.com/, http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/rom/lat/erlateng.htm http://www.jgames.co.uk/dictionary/ghost.html http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wakefield/translations/englat.html --151.51.55.225 (talk) 17:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Latin word you (and the Web sites you're consulting) are misspelling is lamia. It is usually translated into English as "witch" rather than "ghost", though. Larva and phasma are better Latin equivalents to the English word ghost. Deor (talk) 17:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to note that lamina means "a thin plate or layer" in Latin, just as it does in English. Deor (talk) 18:01, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Double "L" in Spanish

Can anyone tell me whata double "L" is in Spanish? My younger sister says it's a rolled "L" (WTF?) but I say it's pronounced like a "Y". Who's right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.129.4 (talk) 18:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd go with the Y sound, as in tortilla, but there may be dialects where it's pronounced otherwise. StuRat (talk) 18:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

There is wide dialectal variation in the pronunciation of ll in Spanish. In some places, it's pronounced like the English y in "yellow", in some places it's pronounced more like "ly" in "million", in some places it's pronounced more like "zh" in "measure", in some places it's more like "j" in "joy", and so forth. —Angr 20:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

There are special words in Spanish for the different pronunciations. "Lleísmo" is when you pronounce it like 'ly', and "yeísmo" is when you pronounce it like 'y', 'zh' or 'dj'. In Buenos Aires, some people pronounce it like a 'sh', so llamar is pronounced like shamar. Steewi (talk) 23:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

To be explicit, there is no Spanish dialect where double l a "rolled" l (I'm not really sure if a trilled lateral is even humanly possible). I think your younger sister assumed that since a double r is rolled that doubling a letter in Spanish means it's rolled. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

It is possible, but only as an ingressive phone, and I doubt any language uses it as a speech sound. Steewi (talk) 23:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't put it past some conlangers to use it for that reason. —Tamfang (talk) 04:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Japanese dictionary online

Is there any Japanese dictionary online with the pronunciation? (Like dictionary.com) Mr.K. (talk) 18:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The only one I know is here. --ChokinBako (talk) 21:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

How about these? [1] and [2]. Oda Mari (talk) 14:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Avoiding questions without saying 'mind your own business'

What is the best way of avoiding improper questions? The problem is mainly that some indiscreet people don't want to be impolite, so I don't want to be impolite to them, but I don't want to answer some specific questions either.--Mr.K. (talk) 18:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Depending on the Q, there are various ways to deflect it. Some examples:

Q: "How old are you ?"

A: "Old enough to know better than to answer a question like that."

Q: "What is your relationship with him/her ?"

A: "They are my 'person to contact in an emergency'." StuRat (talk) 18:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

See Matthew 21 International Standard Version.

(23) Then Jesus went into the temple. While he was teaching, the high priests and the elders of the people came to him and asked, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?”

(24) Jesus answered them, “I, too, will ask you one question. If you answer it for me, I will also tell you by what authority I am doing these things. (25) Where did John's authority to baptize come from? From heaven or from humans?”

They began discussing this among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Then why didn't you believe him?’ (26) But if we say, ‘From humans,’ we are afraid of the crowd, because everyone regards John as a prophet.” (27) So they said to Jesus, “We don't know.”

He in turn told them, “Then I won't tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:02, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

As well as answering a question with a question, there's "That's a bit personal..." and the antique cliche, "We're just friends." My fave is "Why do you want to know?" or "That's not a good question. Got a better one?" In a couple of documentaries about celebrities, when they decided not to answer, they just smiled and smiled, and looked around as if they didn't hear it; they persevered while reporters got cross or gave up, or they hopped into their limos. Just because a question arises, doesn't mean you have to answer it. Julia Rossi (talk) 21:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

"I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me." —Angr 21:47, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Mix and match something like the following: "I'm certain you didn't mean to offend me. / I'm sure you didn't intend to be tactless ... but I'd rather not answer that one./ but we'd both end up happier if we change the subject now." or "I have come to know (and value) you as a very considerate person. So I don't believe you really wanted to ask that." or laugh and say "That's for me to know and for you to not ask about." or "Do we really want to spoil it for the gossip mill?" As Stu said there are better ones depending on the Q and who is asking. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 00:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

How about, "Isn't it amazing how very different certain cultures can be? Where I grew up, we would never think of asking such a quesiton, but here . . . " DOR (HK) (talk) 03:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel the need to respond to people just because they're expecting an answer. If it's an invasive or impertinent question from an adult, I just act as if I didn't hear it, and they soon get the message. With a child, I explain that "around here we don't ask those sorts of questions". -- JackofOz (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

If the questions are on surveys or questionnaires (oral or written), or on application forms (for employment or licences), then there is a special scenario.

-- Wavelength (talk) 04:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

This story is probably apocryphal, but I like it. A nosy entertainment reporter is supposed to have sent a telegram to Cary Grant with the message:

• HOW OLD CARY GRANT

and received the reply

• OLD CARY GRANT FINE STOP HOW YOU

--Anonymous, 05:00 UTC, November 17, 2008.

See Anecdote#Examples and Cary Grant - Biography (section "Personal Quotes").

-- Wavelength (talk) 17:23, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

When dealing with a business, politeness isn't always the best choice, as they can use that against you to take advantage. Always remember that you are in charge. Here's an actual interaction of mine, when I called a business to get their hours:

THEM: "Welcome to... What is your name and phone number ?"

ME: "My name and phone number are absolutely none of your business. Now, how late are you open today ?"

Here's another at a fast food restaurant:

THEM: "Welcome to... Would you like our (overpriced) special ?"

ME: "If I wanted that, I would have asked for it, wouldn't I ? Now, I'll have..."

Telemarketers also are trained to use politeness against you, by not giving you "permission" to hang up:

THEM: "Is now a good time for us to talk or would you like me to call back later ?"

ME: "It will never be a good time for me to talk with a telemarketer. Don't ever call this number again. CLICK !"

In short, if a business asks me anything other than "How may I help you ?", I am as rude as possible toward them. I realize that management may have forced them to ask such stupid questions, but if enough people refuse to play along, then management will eventually stop that practice. StuRat (talk) 17:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

See also Assertiveness and Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with you people, all of you are giving EXTREMELY rude and hurtful answers! Original poster: Don't follow any of the advice given so far. Here are polite alternatives:

Q: "How old are you?"

A: "I don't really talk about that, sorry. It's nothing personal."

normal person's reaction:

Q: "that's okay...(puzzled, but moves on to [new topic])

(annoying people's answer might escalate)

Q: "Come on"

A: "No really I don't, sorry. Are you going to go to the event on Friday?" (or any other new subject)

(normal person answers your new subject)

Further levels of annoying person's escalation could be:

Q: "(ignoring your new subject) It's a straight forward question"

A: "Okay, but I don't talk about it." (clams up = only short answers from now on)

Q: "I'm just curious"

A: "It's okay. But I don't talk about it."

A normal person "gets the hint". If they don't they're not your friend, and you can start stonewalling.

Q: Come on! How old are you?

A: I don't talk about it.

Q: I'll find out sooner or later.

A: ok.

Q: so tell me.

A: sorry.

Q: (angry) Listen you stupid bitch if you don't answer this straightforward question I'm going to rip your purse off and check your ID. You can't do this!!!

A: 35. (never talks to this person again).

If it really got to this, it means the A of the situation made a mistake by being in the same room with this person. If you're ever in this situation with someone, it's your fault for doing socialization WRONG. You should be doing it differently. You need to learn how to make friends through friends, to network, not just start talking to any trash off the street.

Q: "What is your relationship with him/her?"

A: "it's not the best subject"

Q: "I have to write something on this form"

A: "You can write friend/relative".

Q: "That will work (smile)".

A: (smile)

the suggestions

"Why do you want to know?",

"That's not a good question. Got a better one?"

Are terrible. These are off-putting and conversational killers.

In a professional context you could use the suggestion

instead of "That's a bit personal..." you could use

"I think that's too personal" (for the business relationship you have, meaning you want to maintain it as a business relationship)

or

"It's not really appropriate for me to talk about that" (ie because of impropriety)

and the extreme of this is

"Can't talk about it"

"Can't get into it"

"Don't have time to get into it"

This is very effective and doesn't end the conversation, just directs it elsewhere.

"I'm certain you didn't mean to offend me. / I'm sure you didn't intend to be tactless ... but I'd rather not answer that one./ but we'd both end up happier if we change the subject now."

These are all bad, the last one sounds like a threat!

"I have come to know (and value) you as a very considerate person. So I don't believe you really wanted to ask that."

Jeezus. What a conversational killer.

"That's for me to know and for you to not ask about."

"Do we really want to spoil it for the gossip mill?"

terrible, terrible.

"Isn't it amazing how very different certain cultures can be? Where I grew up, we would never think of asking such a quesiton, but here . . . "

What a backhanded insult! Jeez. It would be appropriate (without the "but here...") if a coworker you have no personal relationship with asks you out of the blue "Do you and Mike have anal sex?" It is NOT an appropriate way of not answering a question!

"If it's an invasive or impertinent question from an adult, I just act as if I didn't hear it, and they soon get the message."

Again, totally relationship killers. You might as well say "fuck off". "How old are you?" "Fuck off". (note: this is just to highlight how terrible the advice is).

With a child, I explain that "around here we don't ask those sorts of questions".

Again terrible, because for the child it's not clear enough: you should say : "You shouldn't ask that, since ___ might ___" if it might be too personal, or, if it definitely is too personal, you should command them with the stronger word don't: "Don't ask people that, because it's not polite."

If the questions are on surveys or questionnaires (oral or written), or on application forms (for employment or licences), then there is a special scenario.

The answer here is that you leave those areas blank, or write "(no answer)" or "(prefer not to answer)" or "N/A" if it's a field that could be N/A. For example, I would be confident writing "N/A" to a local bar's typerwitten "work application" if they have a field "Marital status" which is an illegal question in that state. I would feel confident writing N/A whether I'm married or single, and the reason it's not applicable is because it's an illegal question.

A nosy entertainment reporter is supposed to have sent a telegram to Cary Grant with the message:

HOW OLD CARY GRANT

and received the reply

OLD CARY GRANT FINE STOP HOW YOU

Obviously you don't have to answer telegrams or any other unsolicited correspondence! If you DID solicit it, just don't answer one of the questions in the e-mail, but if only a single question is asked you have to refuse to answer it as below.

When dealing with a business, politeness isn't always the best choice, as they can use that against you to take advantage."

Just wrong.

THEM: "Welcome to... What is your name and phone number ?"

ME: "My name and phone number are absolutely none of your business. Now, how late are you open today ?"

very rude. I'd hate to have customers like that -- I'd regret whatever ad campaign brought me into contact with this terrible "customer" who says their very name is none of my business. Especially since the customer is the ONE calling. What a psycho!

Correct possibility:

"Sorry, I'm in a hurry. Could you just tell me how late you're open?".

Obviously the person asking your name and number is not doing it as a conversation piece, but as part of the protocol they were trained in...don't be an asshat to them.

THEM: "Welcome to... Would you like our (overpriced) special ?"

ME: "If I wanted that, I would have asked for it, wouldn't I ? Now, I'll have..."

Jerk. What a terrible customer. If I could, I would never be in contact with another one like that again.

Correct alternative:

"No thank you, I'd just like...".

"Telemarketers also are trained to use politeness against you, by not giving you "permission" to hang up". Just wrong. If you're only pretending to not be interested, by saying "well, I'm not really in the market for a new phone plan..." then of course you are telling them you are interested. The rest of that sentence is : "I'm not really in the market for a new phone plan, so could you tell me what advantages it would have over my current one..." When no means no, a normal customer would just say:

"not interested, sorry."

"yes but--"

"not interested."

"ok, thank you. goodbye"

"goodbye."

THEM: "Is now a good time for us to talk or would you like me to call back later?"

"It will never be a good time for me to talk with a telemarketer. Don't ever call this number again. CLICK!"

terrible.

correct:

"Sorry, I'm definitely not interested. Please take me off your list, thank you"

"ok, thank you"

"bye"

"bye".

In short, if a business asks me anything other than "How may I help you ?", I am as rude as possible toward them.

Gee. As rude as possible. What a terrible person, seriously.

I realize that management may have forced them to ask such stupid questions, but if enough people refuse to play along, then management will eventually stop that practice.

Just awful. There is a real human being at the other end of the line, and they have the shittiest job in town. When you hurt them by being inordinately rude, you're being a bad person. it's that simple.

In a couple of documentaries about celebrities, when they decided not to answer, they just smiled and smiled, and looked around as if they didn't hear it; they persevered while reporters got cross or gave up, or they hopped into their limos. Just because a question arises, doesn't mean you have to answer it.

This is also terrible advice. You can't pretend to be hard-of-hearing when a single person you're in the middle of a conversation with is curious about something. Jesus. So far all the enemies make is sound like they spend most of their conversational time talking with their enemies, and not their friends.

By the way, if you're not answering a question from a reporter, in a direct dialogue, we have a formule: "no comment (smile)".

Other formulas are (for this situation):

We're not here to talk about that now.

Sorry, we don't talk about our personal life.

I can't really talk about it. (or more formal: I'm not at liberty to talk about it)

As you know, we never talk about ____. But when we make an announcement, I will be very happy to discuss it with you.

These are all formulas to use with reporters.

about telemarketers: you can hang up on them after saying "not interested", and if you're not a jerk you'll give them 1 second to say, "ok, bye".

Please sign to avoid confusion, 94.27.195.51. Julia Rossi (talk) 03:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The one thing I like about your answers was the suggestion to answer any unwanted question with "Fuck off !", I'll be sure to try that. It would be a lie to say I don't have time to give them my name and phone number. I don't want to give them that info because then I will be on their call list and they will start calling me during dinner to sell me crap. Furthermore, there is no possible justification for them to require that info to tell me how late they are open. You may say "but they don't know that's what you want". This is why they should ALWAYS ask "How may I help you ?". As for telemarketers, they have decided it's acceptable to make a living by placing unwanted cold calls to people's homes. This should be illegal, but it being legal doesn't mean I have to treat them with any more respect than someone who assaults me in any other way. Finally, realize that politeness is often at odds with honesty, and many people (especially New Yorkers) value honesty more. You may call us terrible people, but we consider people who lie to disguise their true feelings to be terrible people. StuRat (talk) 03:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I realize my format was hard to read, but I tried to indicate that "fuck off" is just an example of a terrible alternative. This is what I said: "Again, totally relationship killers. You might as well say "fuck off". "How old are you?" "Fuck off". (note: this is just to highlight how terrible the advice is).". When I said "(note: this is just to highlight how terrible the advice is)" I meant : (to be explicit: 'fuck off' is NOT my advice, it is just an example of something JUST AS BAD as ignoring someone in the middle of the conversation).

As good as your previous advice was (to just tell them to "Fuck off !"), your new advice to ignore unwanted questions is even better. Let's see it in action:

THEM: "Welcome to... What is your name and phone number ?"

ME: "How late are you open today ?"

THEM: "Welcome to... Would you like our (overpriced) special ?"

ME: "I'll have..."

THEM: "Is now a good time for us to talk or would you like me to call back later ?"

ME: "CLICK !"

It's still rude and yet requires less time and effort on my part, allowing me to be rude to more people in a given day. I'm always an advocate of efficiency, and this is positively brilliant ! StuRat (talk) 18:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

They were interesting in a scroll-hogging ranting way, and you went to heaps of trouble, but in my experience, the answers I suggested depend a lot on delivery, tone of voice and expression for how they come across. Maybe your answers do too? A rebuff isn't usually the end of the world since most normal people can handle one. What I'd like to know is, if a person asks a rude question, making their hearer uncomfortable, how can they expect a polite answer? Julia Rossi (talk) 04:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The idea of false politeness reminds me of this skit on the British Parliament:

"I would like to propose that the honorable gentleman from Cornwall take a longish walk on a shortish pier."

"I thank the Madam Chariwoman for her suggestion, although I must decline her kind offer at this time. And, in return, I would like to suggest that the Madam Chairwoman sit upon a long, pointed stick." StuRat (talk) 04:51, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Guys, I think the reason we're in such disagreement is because the original poster said "What is the best way of avoiding improper questions" but some of your answers are as though they had said "What is the best way of responding to an incredibly personal question that is none of their business".

The latter would be questions like (totally improper):

- Have you slept together yet?

- Do you have any diseases?

- Are you on your period right now?

- Did you ever have an abortion?

etc

The former would be questions like (just normal questions you want to continue the conversation without answering):

- Are you seeing anybody?

- What do your parents do?

- Who do you live with?

- Where did you go to school?

79.122.75.250 (talk) 15:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

"How old are you?" "Older than I was." —Tamfang (talk) 04:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Extras in name company

If you want to create a company name that contains a usual company name (like "Adonis" or "Pegasus") what kind of neutral extras (like "ventures", "partners", ...) could you add to make it more unusual?--Mr.K. (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Some of it depends on the nature of the company. If you are talking of a manufacturing company, or a design company, for example, you could use productions, but other ones might be & co. (short for and company), industries, specialties, the name of a city, region, state or province, or even a country name. You may wish to consult a trademark lawyer to determine how different the name has to be to avoid conflicts with pre-existing companies. Steewi (talk) 23:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

But please don't use "solutions". There's already a huge glut of companies offering "solutions" for every conceivable problem and every conceivable non-problem. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Enterprises? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Syndicate? Collective? Project? Those are meaningless enough to be interchangable with "corporation" or "company" and are more unusual... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

And Private Eye dedicates a little section to ridiculous company names containing solutions. Many of which are very funny. Get the thesauraus (spelling) out and think of the 'basic' word for the operation your company does, and use a less-used version - though to be honest that will no doubt result in some potentially awful company names. For me 1-word company names or initialisms/acronyms are most distinctive. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)