Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 September 15
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < September 14 | << Aug | September | Oct >> | September 16 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
September 15
editHow do you say "weeeeeee" in Latin?
editHow do you say "weeeeeee" (as an exclamation of thrill or enjoyment) in Latin? ----Seans Potato Business 00:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe "euoe" or "euhoe" is about as close as you're going to get with available data....
AnonMoos (talk) 01:21, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Drat, before I saw the OP's parenthesis, I was going to say "nooooooos." Deor (talk) 01:25, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is also "eu" or "hem". It seems the Romans weren't a very excitable bunch, and left record of a lot more words for lamentation than for enjoyment... Adam Bishop (talk) 01:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk)
- I'll bet Julius Caesar was excited when he said, "Weni, widi, weeeeeeeeeci." Clarityfiend (talk) 02:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, wery good. --Dweller (talk) 06:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'll bet Julius Caesar was excited when he said, "Weni, widi, weeeeeeeeeci." Clarityfiend (talk) 02:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is also "eu" or "hem". It seems the Romans weren't a very excitable bunch, and left record of a lot more words for lamentation than for enjoyment... Adam Bishop (talk) 01:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk)
The surname Wałęsa without diacritics
editHow to represent the surname Wałęsa when typography (in an archive's electronic database program) does not allow the Polish diacritics?
- Walesa
- Walensa
- other?
In seeking authoritative instances for English language usage, would a leading U.S. or U.K. newspaper (Washington Post, New York Times/International Herald-Tribune, Times of London, etc.) be the arbiter? The U.S. Library of Congress uses the Polish complete with diacritics. Please note that this query does not challenge the name of the Lech Wałęsa page, and I wholly support retaining the Polish spelling in the English Wikipedia. I will post the results of this discussion to the talk page where a suggested Page Move (Rename) was inconclusively discussed in the past. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- The BBC [1] and The Guardian [2] use "Walesa", and to my knowledge that's the only way I've seen it written. Fribbler (talk) 11:28, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I would concur with Fribbler's response (and also point out that British TV and radio pretty well always (IIRC) pronounce it "Valensa"). Though this doesn't really answer your question about which spelling can be taken as the official non-diacritic representation. I suppose it's a question of whose house style you feel more comfortable with. (The Guardian's manual of style says, IIRC, that French German and Spanish should have diacritics, but other languages shouldn't. I suspect that just came about to make typesetters' jobs easier.)--82.148.54.195 (talk) 11:58, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- The Guardian, magnificent organ though it is, is not to be regarded as in any way reliable when it comes to questions of typesetting. DuncanHill (talk) 16:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I would concur with Fribbler's response (and also point out that British TV and radio pretty well always (IIRC) pronounce it "Valensa"). Though this doesn't really answer your question about which spelling can be taken as the official non-diacritic representation. I suppose it's a question of whose house style you feel more comfortable with. (The Guardian's manual of style says, IIRC, that French German and Spanish should have diacritics, but other languages shouldn't. I suspect that just came about to make typesetters' jobs easier.)--82.148.54.195 (talk) 11:58, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I've subscribed to The Washington Post for years (decades, even). Even when the former head of Solidarity spoke to a joint session of Congress, the paper printed his name as "Walesa." I don't know that that makes the Post an arbiter, but it's an example. --- OtherDave (talk) 13:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC) (Edited to add: on-air news uses the "va-wen-sa" pronunciation, though local newspeople can easily stumble with that.)
- Yes, you're right, I've remembered now that news organisations here in the UK would pronounce it "va-wen-sa".--85.158.139.99 (talk) 07:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC) (formerly 82.148.54.195)
The Longman Dictionary of English Language and Culture (1992) says: "Walesa /və'wensə||və'lensə, wə-/, Lech /lek, lex/". — Kpalion(talk) 20:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Latin
edithello, I was just inquiring about the language tree in yr site you forgot to put latin in the subdivision list of indo-european languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages
Greek is there and all the bunch but not latin.
Also could u try to include Armenian in the left list of languages when we want to translate an article and read in that language. There's 6 million around the world who can benefit from yr site. Thanks. Nathalie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.173.50.223 (talk) 14:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Latin is an Italic language; its group is included in the list. Whether an article has a link to an Armenian version on the left-hand side depends on the editors of the Armenian Wikipedia. If they write an article in Armenian that corresponds to the English article, the link will be added. If you are a native or fluent speaker of Armenian, you might like to sign up for an account there and help expand the Armenian-language Wikipedia yourself! —Angr 14:28, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Bridges
editDo bridges take the definite article before them? Is there any rule based on the bridge's name or the variant of English used/location of the bridge itself? Thanks, --Dami (talk) 18:25, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I'd always say "the Golden Gate Bridge", "the Brooklyn Bridge", and "the George Washington Bridge". On the other hand, I'd say "London Bridge" and "Tower Bridge". Maybe it depends what country the bridge is in? —Angr 19:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- We're a bit ambivalent about the Sydney Harbour Bridge. In other words, we're a bit ambivalent about Sydney Harbour Bridge. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Interestingly, Menai Bridge seems to refer to the name of the town exclusively, whereas the Menai Suspension Bridge alludes to the structure. If this conclusion is not completely erroneous, the use of the article does not quite depend on the country. However, this might be a one-off (to avoid confusion? because of attributive Suspension?), I don't know. Bessel Dekker (talk) 00:16, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Lots of British bridges are "The.... Bridge", e.g. The Tyne Bridge, The High Level Bridge, The Royal Albert Bridge, The Millennium Bridge, The Clifton Suspension Bridge, The Bridge on the River Kwai. DuncanHill (talk) 00:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Here is a category link for reference: Category:Bridges. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, most of the articles on British bridges are mis-named on Wikipedia, omitting the "The". DuncanHill (talk) 01:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a misnaming. Just because it's convenentional to use "the" in a sentence before certain names, that doesn't mean that the "the" is part of the name. I can't think of a rule for whether "the" is used or not, but it does seem to me that every specific bridge I can think of -- and I can think of a lot of bridges -- takes a "the" except for the ones in London, England, which don't. Weird. --Anonymous, 04:00 UTC, September 16, 2008.
- Exceptions to your exceptions: I think most people say the Hungerford Bridge and the Millennium Bridge.;)--92.40.98.33 (talk) 06:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Mathematical Bridge is so called (though I suppose someone must put a 'the' in there, since our article does). Algebraist 11:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- It's not a misnaming to omit "The" from the title of the article about the Humber Bridge, for example, any more than it's wrong to do so in the articles about the M62 motorway or the British Museum. The best test is whether or not the article (definite or indefinite) would take a capital where it appeared in the middle of the sentence. Thus: "I crossed the Tyne Bridge then went to the MetroCentre to buy The Times and watch A Knight's Tale". Karenjc 16:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- One would (I hope) never say "I crossed the London Bridge". DuncanHill (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Also, consider these possibilities:
- "We were supposed to meet on London Bridge, but he thought I meant a different London bridge, so we were miles apart"; and
- "We were supposed to meet on London Bridge, but he thought I meant a different London Bridge, so we weren't even in the same country". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Also, consider these possibilities:
- One would (I hope) never say "I crossed the London Bridge". DuncanHill (talk) 21:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- It's not a misnaming to omit "The" from the title of the article about the Humber Bridge, for example, any more than it's wrong to do so in the articles about the M62 motorway or the British Museum. The best test is whether or not the article (definite or indefinite) would take a capital where it appeared in the middle of the sentence. Thus: "I crossed the Tyne Bridge then went to the MetroCentre to buy The Times and watch A Knight's Tale". Karenjc 16:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Mathematical Bridge is so called (though I suppose someone must put a 'the' in there, since our article does). Algebraist 11:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Exceptions to your exceptions: I think most people say the Hungerford Bridge and the Millennium Bridge.;)--92.40.98.33 (talk) 06:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a misnaming. Just because it's convenentional to use "the" in a sentence before certain names, that doesn't mean that the "the" is part of the name. I can't think of a rule for whether "the" is used or not, but it does seem to me that every specific bridge I can think of -- and I can think of a lot of bridges -- takes a "the" except for the ones in London, England, which don't. Weird. --Anonymous, 04:00 UTC, September 16, 2008.
- Unfortunately, most of the articles on British bridges are mis-named on Wikipedia, omitting the "The". DuncanHill (talk) 01:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't think there is one single rule to determine which bridges take the definite article: I think it's just a case of learning each convention. As pure speculation, perhaps some are treated as proper proper nouns (if there is such a thing?) and thus don't need the definite article, like Tower Bridge (just as you wouldn't say the Buckingham Palace or the Oxford Street). Others are more descriptive, like the Forth Road Bridge (similar to the North Island, the West Coast). Anyway, you will find those without: London Bridge, Westminster Bridge, Mangere Bridge, Grafton Bridge, Framwellgate Bridge; those with: the Humber Bridge, the Silver Jubilee Bridge, the Bridge over the Atlantic, the Bridge to Nowhere; and those where useage differs depending on person and context: Sydney Harbour Bridge, Auckland Harbour Bridge, Skye Bridge. Gwinva (talk) 08:20, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
British football (i.e. soccer) players with names that sound rude in foreign languages?
editWhilst it's quite a common pastime for British football fans to make fun of foreign players whose names sound rude when written down/(mis)pronounced in English (e.g. Stefan Kuntz, Danny Shittu, Johan de Kock, Rafael Scheidt, Brian Pinas, Uwe Fuchs, Youri Djorkaeff, etc.), I find myself wondering if there are any British players with names that, when mentioned on the TV or radio would cause football fans in a foreign country to snigger like schoolboys in the same manner. Any ideas?
I apologise if this comes across in any way racist. That is not my intent here at all. There have been quite a few British footballers with names that are/were regularly mocked by opposing fans because they sounded 'a bit rude' too (e.g. David Seaman, David Batty, Marcus Bent). --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:54, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- In general terms, the answer is almost certainly affirmative. There seem to exist about 6000 languages, and the odds are tnat any English word (including names) might have a false friend in some language, and that these false friends might have an obscene denotation or connotation in a few of those. Examples for a cognate language such as Dutch are not hard to find.
- In more specific terms, could we think of examples? It would be an interesting exercise, but hesitantly I would prefer not to. For one thing, it might offend certain persons, notably the incumbents; for another, I myself seem not to know any football players at all. Wasted life, true. Bessel Dekker (talk) 00:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Heck, there are examples of this thing going back to 1599 or so. --- OtherDave (talk) 11:22, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- In Greek there are many names that literally mean worm and small worm or orangefruit in Greek itself. They are names, nobody gives any attention. NerdyNSK (talk) 16:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)