Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 February 20

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February 20

Vaessen

What does the name Vaessen mean? How did it originate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsjayaschandran (talk • contribs) 03:35, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

There are a plethora of online surname-origin websites that you can consult. See search of such sites here. --Eustress (talk) 04:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

As a Dutchman I immediately associate this name with Limburg, and indeed this text discusses it as a typically Limburgish name.

If Dutch, it could also be an older way of spelling Vaassen, which is a town in the Netherlands (not in Limburg, though). The article says: "The name Vaassen derives from "Fasna", an old word for a specific rough type of grass." 83.81.61.240 (talk) 08:22, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Makes sense - 'vass' (from p.gmc. "*wassa-") is Swedish for reeds. Although it's probably not relevant to the name in question. --Pykk (talk) 12:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I am grateful to you, the Dutch in particular. The Dutch ruled parts of Kerala, where I live, more than two centuries ago. A Dutch officer, Van Dreede, produced a marvellously precise botanial work, the faithfully illustrated Hortus Malabaricus. The Dutch power in India delcined after the Dutch suffered a military defeat at the hands of prince in Kerala. A Dutch captain, De Lannoy, who surrerended became his admiral. De Lannoy built several forts. He lies buried in one of them near Cape Comerin, at the tip of the Indian peninsula.

word for 'pay what you think its worth'

Hello,

Does any one know is there is a word (perhaps in other languages) whereby there is no fixed price and customers only pay what they think its worth ( like how Radiohead sold their last album)?. To clarify, I don't mean bartering or any sense in which the vendor tries to influence the price directly (apart from demonstrating great value of course). Thanks,81.140.37.58 (talk) 11:10, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

No answer, but there's not a word in German, where it's "Zahle-was-Du-willst"[1] or even "Pay what you want"[2]. The French seem to use "pay what you want" too[3]. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 11:41, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Some museums use this type of pricing and I remembered terms like "pay what you want". So I did a Google search on "museum", "admission", and "pay what you". It appears from the first few pages of hits that "pay what you wish" is the most common form of this, but "pay what you can" and "pay what you want" are also used. --Anonymous, 11:44 UTC, February 20/09.

"Pay what you want" seems the most popular (hyphenated or not); I've also seen the term "Radiohead model" used, but not popularly. I've looked at a lot of top-notch financial sites' coverage of such experiments, and none of them use a specific term, to my suprise. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 12:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I've seen theatres use the idea, expressed as the initialism PWYC, e.g. for Tuesday evening performances when otherwise they'd expect an almost empty house. I know someone who mixed up the FLA (and these events) with the other weekday evening revelry of TGIF. BrainyBabe (talk) 13:44, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Honor system? --Sean 19:07, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Many charity events and local functions in Australia run on a "gold coin donation" system. That suggests you might pay $1 or $2 (they're not actually gold, but they're gold-ish in appearance). But it's not mandatory, so you can walk in without paying anything if you want. Or you can hand over a $100 note if you want. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Tipping? —Tamfang (talk) 01:05, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Donation. There was a restaurant here that charged whatever you thought the meal was worth. Though the food was good, the customers exploited the cheap option and it didn't last – "you think" is the loophole, so donation is it for me. Julia Rossi (talk) 05:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

[Koa](sp?) - I've been told they term "Koa" (koh-ah) is used in New Zealand for "Pay What You Can" but haven't been able to locate any references to it, possible because I'm spelling it incorrectly. --J.Rai

Who's down under?

Our article "Down Under" says "...and occasionally New Zealand." How occasional? It seems to me that if I say "Down Under" and mean to include New Zealand, nobody will know I mean that unless it invariably includes New Zealand. How do Australians and New Zealanders hear the term? --Milkbreath (talk) 13:11, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

There are times when it doesn't matter, like "English is spoken as a native language mainly in the UK, US, Canada, and by our friends Down Under". There are even more vague terms, like Yankee:

• To English residents of New York City in colonial times, it meant the Dutch residents.

• To current residents of New York State it means anyone from New York City.

• To residents of surrounding states it means residents of New York State.

• To people in the Northern US outside of New England it refers to New Englanders.

• To people in the Southern US it means Northern USers.

• To people outside the US it means USers and possibly even Canadians. StuRat (talk) 14:23, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Residents of New England states that border New York are unlikely to think that a Yankee is a New Yorker--rather, the term is encountered principally to denote a player for the New York Yankees, and secondarily as what people from elsewhere might call New Englanders, or Northerners generally. I've lived in Massachusetts for most of my adult life, and have never heard a Massachusan refer to New Englanders or anyone else as a Yankee, except in jocular use. --Atemperman (talk) 15:34, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Tierra del Fuego is down under. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:35, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't speak for NZers (Gwinva & Co will probably help out here), but when Aussies use it, it depends a little on the context. It could just refer to Australia, or it could include New Zealand. To Australians, it almost never means just New Zealand, but I imagine Kiwis sometimes use it that way. When we hear outsiders say they're planning a visit Down Under, without any further information that would generally be taken to mean they're visiting both countries, because most people who come all this way, primarily to see one of the countries, usually take the opportunity to visit the other while they're down here. But it could just mean one or the other. Tierra del Fuego? Hmm ... -- JackofOz (talk) 22:06, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I've heard people say 'Down Under and Across the Ditch' as a way of specifying the inclusion of NZ without breaking the jocularity (or whatever it is that makes people use these expressions instead of the real names for things) /Coffeeshivers (talk) 22:54, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

But do Kiwis say it: dan ahndah? Julia Rossi (talk) 11:15, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is wrong. (Gasp! Shocked silence.) New Zealanders use it to refer to NZ. Other people use it to refer to NZ. The Great Authority (OED) claims it means "Australia and New Zealand". The Heinemann Dictionary of NZ English claims it means "Australia and New Zealand". I would suggest that reason it sometimes doesn't include NZ is that the speaker has forgotten NZ exists. Which might explain the "occasional" comment. People only occasionally refer to NZ anyway (!!??) (To Julia: we say it correctly.) Gwinva (talk) 00:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

No, it's more than that, Gwinva. When Men at Work sang "I come from a land down under" in Down Under (song), they were specifically referring to Australia only, because they are Australian singers and the song was solely about Australia. It wasn't that they'd forgotten that NZ exists. As I say, it depends on the context. The dictionaries are correct in that it can, generally speaking, refer to both countries. But within a particular context, it can be applied in a more limited way. Just as "America" can refer to North and South America combined, but it more often refers to the single country of the USA. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I was only partly serious, Jack. (But on the subject of the song, I believe the significant word is "a land down under".) Anyway, to Milkbreath, as everyone has noted, it depends on context. For what it's worth, the big OED has "At the antipodes; in Australia, New Zealand, etc." The first use was Froude in 1886 [4], referring to arrival in Australia. Later entries have an NZ context. Gwinva (talk) 03:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, all. I'm afraid that everyday American English has "Down Under" and "to/in Australia" synonymous, partly thanks to Men at Work, with New Zealand left out. The "a" in the song does suggest that Australia is only one such land, but I think that many took it to be like the "a" in "a land of forests and mountains". I'm sure, though I have no evidence, that bungee-jumpers and white-water kayakers include NZ in the term. though, as will I from now on. The antipodes it is. --Milkbreath (talk) 19:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Not from where you are, though, Milkbreath, unless you want us to regard you henceforth as Britocentric.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Assimilation of Japanese syllable coda /n/ before /w/?

How does the place of articulation of the Japanese nasal consonant assimilate before /w/? Does it become bilabial or velar or something else?--206.248.186.119 (talk) 20:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Or even other languages that assimilate a generic nasal consonant to an easier-to-pronounce place of articulation else before [w]...--206.248.186.119 (talk) 21:08, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

See Japanese phonology#Moraic nasal, point 5. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

There are a lot of mistakes in that article, so take it with a pinch of salt. --92.41.211.134 (talk) 12:18, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

My, my

I've just noticed I inadvertently repeated a word in a sentence I wrote, so I went in and removed the 2nd one. In my edit summary, I used a little self-referential light humour, as you can see here. Then I got to wondering about "My, my". I've looked in all the places I can think of to find its origin and a description of how and where it's used, but no luck. Googling "my, my" and "my, my!" got me nowhere, as I suspected it would. I've tried "ironic expressions", looked under reduplication, but nothing. There are similar examples of doubled words – "Dear, dear" (sometimes "Dear, oh dear"), "Dearie, dearie me", and "There, there" spring to mind. They usually introduce some commentary on some issue or event. Can anyone come to my my [sic] rescue? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:52, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Diacope ? Otherwise it might be hidden somewhere here Figure of speech. (IMHO Someone should go though our rhetoric pages and make them usable for ordinary non-expert readers.) 76.97.245.5 (talk) 22:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I would say it represents a stutter. Someone says something surprising and the response is to stumble over the first words in trying to think of a reply, perhaps often in an effort to check oneself and not say "My God!" or "Dear Lord!". Of course something more coarse might spring to someone's lips when something shocking is said so and expression like "My, my" is now more deliberately humorous. meltBanana 17:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's often used humorously, but perhaps more often sarcastically. Parents use it when speaking to their recalcitrant or upset children, and often (as I did in my edit summary) as if they were including themselves in it, by the use of "we" - "My, my, we are a happy little Vegemite today, aren't we", that sort of thing. That expression could also be used where the kid actually is happy; but more often where they're far from happy.

For those who don't get the Vegemite reference, "we're happy little Vegemites" was part of the ad campaign for said product back in the 50s or thereabouts, maybe earlier, and it quickly entered the Australian lexicon, just as the Yellow Pages' latter-day "Not happy, Jan" has. -- JackofOz (talk) 18:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I recently mused this myself, with a satisfying, but incomplete result --Dweller (talk) 12:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Lovely. As far as it goes. (I'm tempted to say "My, my, how synchronous!"). I put a comma between the 2 words, but I'm sure that's not mandatory. Thanks, Dweller. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:05, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Ajar words

Is there a special term for adjectives which are used exclusively (or almost exclusively) as predicates? A lot of them begin with the letter A, for example ajar, afraid, alive. You never hear *afraid man or *ajar door. As for ajar, I know that it was originally an adverb (the door stands ajar), though it has since become an adjective (the door is ajar). Is it because of its adverbial origin that it isn't used before a noun? What about alive, afraid, asea, aloft, etc? Are they all adverbs? 'Kaput' is certainly an adjective, but it seems to behave in a similar way, since you speak of a car being kaput, but never of a kaput car. And what about Amok Time? LANTZY^TALK 23:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

The people surrendered, guns aloft (adjective, predicate); the people held their guns aloft in surrender (adverb)? Didn't turn up a special term, Julia Rossi (talk) 05:05, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Btw, here's more: you might find "a-" in a dictionary interesting as a prefix that means "on" or "towards" (aside, asleep, afoot, aloft) as well as "not" or "without" (from the Greek, eg.: atheist). Julia Rossi (talk) 11:13, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

My OALD labels them 'adjetives with [only] predicative use'. As for an example without "a-", I found can also mention tantamount. Pallida  Mors 14:36, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Term for a figure of speech

I am trying to remember the Greek term for ascribing an emotional quality to a part of the whole, for example "she batted her coquettish eyelashes" or "he raised a defiant fist". I am not looking for the word metonymy, but for a more specific term. Thanks. LANTZY^TALK 23:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Never mind. It was hypallage. LANTZY^TALK 00:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I hate you—I actually knew that one. --Milkbreath (talk) 00:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)