Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 May 20

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May 20

"Inconvenient" or "Inconvenience"?

what is the right phrase = sorry for the inconvenient? or sorry for the inconvenience? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zylie Morales (talk • contribs) 05:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

"Sorry for the inconvenience" is correct. Richard Avery (talk) 07:05, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Unless you're talking about the people described here. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:23, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

preventive or preventative?

The term "preventative treatment" is pretty common. When I came across "preventive" in a QA (quality assurance manual I thought it was a typo. But it's not. Webster's has both. Does use differ by country (AE/BE?) or profession or am I just old fashioned? 71.236.24.129 (talk) 08:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Imo, both can be used interchangeably, but preventative can also be used as a noun, whereas preventive is used only as an adjective, e.g. 'Aspirin is an effective preventative against aches', or 'Aspirin is an effective preventative medicine against aches', or 'Aspirin is an effective preventive medicine against aches'. - DSachan (talk) 08:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

"Preventive" can be used as a noun too. Actually the Wiktionary entry for "preventive" says the two words are synonymous in all senses. --96.227.54.150 (talk) 12:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

See Frequentative#Latin. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Willy nilly redirect

Please see the proposal I've placed at Talk:Willy nilly. I'm a pedant with English language usage <ahem> and it seems to me inappropriate that we currently redirect to Arbitrariness.

If the term is notable, it should have its own (correct) article. If not, a (soft?) redirect to wiktionary would be better than an inaccurate/misleading redirect to an article that doesn't mention the term. --Dweller (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

NB If you're interested in this, please post there, rather than here. --Dweller (talk) 11:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of -sts ending in English

How do you pronounce words ending with -sts, such as "lists" and "costs"? None of the references I consulted has a special rule for words whose pronunciations end with /-st/ (before an "s" is appended, that is). Applying the rule for words ending with a /-t/ sound, the final "s" should be pronounced as /s/. However, to my ear, "lists" and "costs" are pronounced as /lɪsz/ and /kɒsz/. Am I mistaken? --96.227.54.150 (talk) 11:57, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I am British and I pronounce the "sts" fully; lɪsts and kɒsts. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:11, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I've heard that words like this are pronounced [lɪsː] and [kɔsː] in AAVE, where the length of the /s/ is the only thing distinguishing them from the corresponding singulars [lɪs] and [kɔs]. I think I (as a speaker of non-AAVE American English) might well say [lɪsː] and [kɔsː] in rapid speech too, but in careful speech the /t/ would reemerge. The singular forms would always have the /t/. +Angr 12:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

According to our AAVE article, words that exhibit final consonant cluster simplification (that is, /-st/ > [-s]) by comparison to Standard English can sometimes take the plural morpheme as if they ended in /s/, so that e.g. tests is pronounced [ˈtɛsəz]. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I am too and I do too, when I'm speaking slowly. When I'm speaking fast, I'm really not sure: I doubt that I say /sts/ but don't know what I do say. (I'm even less sure about the wonderful [potential/alleged?] cluster at the end of "sixths".) -- Hoary (talk) 23:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I pronounce it as /s/ (Canadian English). Just a quick note that the -sts set can be tricky for many non-native English speakers, as many consonant clusters can be, but the speakers often simply omit the final /s/ rather than voicing it. Matt Deres (talk) 12:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

(RP) I'm pretty sure I pronounce the final ts the same way I pronounce final z in German. I think I end 'lists' and 'Herz' the same way. I can't quite decide how that would best be represented though. 80.41.99.250 (talk) 19:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Finger counting

When you count things using your fingers, for your own reference, not for someone else's, how do you do it?

1. Which languages do you speak, and which country are you from?
2. Do you count by folding your fingers, or by spreading them?
3. Do you start with your thumb, index finger, or your little finger?

For me, it's:

1. Korean, South Korea
2. Folding
3. Thumb --Kjoonlee 12:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

And do we have an article about this? --Kjoonlee 12:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Took me a moment or two to understand what you were saying :) For me it's

1. Slovene
2. Spreading (funny word, I'm sure there's a better one, but I can't think of it)
3. Right thumb, starting with left thumb for numbers larger than six.

I did notice Asian cultures fold the fingers whereas European ones spread them. Not sure there's enough material in that for an entire article, though... TomorrowTime (talk) 13:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

1. English; U.S.
2. Spreading
3. Right or left index finger (the thumb comes last).

And I've heard that Europeans usually start with the thumb (as TomorrowTime does) while Americans usually start with the index finger (as I do). +Angr 13:37, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

1. English; Canada
2. Spreading (opening)
3. left thumb, right pinkie is "ten", I am right-handed. Matt Deres (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. I'm

1. English (Uk)
2. 'Twiddling' (I have my palm facing me and hand open, I flick my finger forward (then back) and move onto the next for each digit - lets me get past 5!)
3. Left index-finger normally (thumb last)

Not really an answer of sorts but I do wonder if it's just a learned behaviour from your parents/class-mates/teacher. Certainly I don't often count with my fingers but i'm confident that's how I normally do it. ny156uk (talk) 16:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...

1. English, UK
2. Spreading
3. Index first.

Many people around me count thumb-first, which always seems counterintuitive to me - you can't open your fourth finger properly without opening your fifth, making an uncomfortable stretching feeling within the hand. No such problem with using the thumb last - you can use the thumb to hold the other fingers down.

Sometimes, for a laugh, I count up to 1023 with my fingers. 90.193.232.41 (talk) 18:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

'Fifth finger'? Do your friends live near a nuclear power station or something? You should only have four fingers on each hand, plus thumbs. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 04:03, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

1. UK
2. Spreading
3. Thumb first (right)

If I'm demonstrating a number to someone else, I'd start with the index finger for the reason given by 90.193 above. When counting by myself, I start with the thumb, using the opposable base thing of my thumb to hold my little finger down until needed. This is less of a problem because the ring finger doesn't need to be straight up when I'm just keeping a tally for myself, and the position rarely needs to be sustained. 80.41.99.250 (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

In Italy:

1. Italian, ITA
2. Spreading,
3. Right thumb

As to the problem of "4", personally I do not open my hand completely indeed, and fingers make increasing angles with the palm (0 for the index-finger, 90° for the fourth finger). This way making a "4" is as confortable as other people's "-4" ;-) -84.221.208.46 (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

1. German
2. Spreading, if pressed to decide between the two options. Otherwise, I touch my fingertips with the index of the other hand.
3. Thumb, with spreading; with touching: 1st hand thumb, 2nd hand pinkie. 85.180.203.40 (talk) 20:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

1. English (could get by in Russia and France); Australia
2. Spreading
3. I start with the little finger of my right hand, working my way towards the thumb, using the index finger of my left hand as the "pointer". Which is odd because I'm right handed. I never noticed that before. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

1. Australian (English speaking)
2. Spreading
3. Thumb, then index, across to the pinky, although sometimes the pinky will come before the ring finger. Each count is accompanied by a slight downward thrust of the hand, rather than pointing. Steewi (talk) 00:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

1. Chinese, Australia
2. Folding
3. Thumb. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:42, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

• I'm Anglo-American, but spent some time in Europe in my youth. I count by opening from the pinkie. But to specify a fixed number, I raise index then middle then thumb; for four I raise all but the thumb. —Tamfang (talk) 02:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

1. English, U.S.A.
2. Spreading
3. Thumb (right hand, then left hand), both when I'm counting to myself and when I'm illustrating for others. Deor (talk) 03:09, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

1. British
2. Spreading
3. Thumb, right hand.

• Also, when I show 'two', I turn my palm to face the person I am speaking to, as in the 'peace sign'. Otherwise it looks like the V-sign, which is insulting in the UK. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:06, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

1. British
2. Spreading
3. Little finger right hand.

(or showing off I use binary, counting to 31 on one hand. I cannot fully fold the necessary fingers for some combinations but instead fold at the joint.) -- Q Chris (talk) 12:33, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, privately, I use my thumb on the 'segments' of my four fingers on the right hand to get numbers up to 12, then close the corresponding finger on my other hand to count multiples of 12. This works perfectly for me (upto 48, then the thumb on the left hand will act as the last two to make it 50). Beat that! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:58, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

1. English; Northeast U.S.
2. Spreading
3. Index (continuing towards pinky, then thumb last)

(This is a really interesting survey) 71.174.22.234 (talk) 17:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)Lys

1. English - US - California.
2. I start by folding my hand into a fist, then open it up with each individual finger.
3. Start with the thumb.

Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:44, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

First, I don't understand what you mean by folding and spreading...

1. English, German. New Zealand.
2. I start with a fist and flip fingers out as I count, like the gentleman above.
3. I start with my right index, then finish my right hand with my thumb, but then start on my left thumb for six...

Is there an article? Do you even have to ask on WP? Of course there's an article: Finger counting! Also, I find Chinese number gestures fascinating. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 19:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Also check out the links under Category:Finger counting. And KageTora, does 1023 beat your measly 50? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 19:25, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I have added a colon before the category so that it appears in the comment and not at the bottom of the page, and so that this page does not appear in the category. Here is the original edit. See Help:Category#Putting pages in categories.

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow! Well, that sends a resounding '128' to MY system, then! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 22:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Scroll up. 90.192 mentioned this already...Vimescarrot (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

1. English, German. British nationality.
2. Spreading (as in, start with balled fists).
3. Start with thumb of left hand, when I get to six I go on to the thumb of my right hand.

--Joe^Talk_Work 20:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

There's a literature on this. (I dont know where to look really.) Not all cultures use both hands to count past five. Some count 5 five fingers and then proceed up the arm of the same hand. There are different arm counting patterns in different cultures. Also, some languages with non-decimal counting systems dont use fingers at all, but rather count the spaces between the fingers (these would obviously be either base-4 or base-8 systems). Some anthropologist has probably written a book that summarizes this information. – ishwar  (speak) 20:27, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

1. Finnish, Finland
2. Spreading
3. From left thumb and fingers to right thumb and fingers. Sometimes I touch the middle part of my fingers while counting. --ざくら木 14:52, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

1. Indian. Malayalam & English 2. Folding 3. Right pinkie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.4.198 (talk) 17:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Learning German and French

Hello, at the moment I am learning German. Though I am still not able to speak it, I can read it pretty well and have a good grasp of its grammar. My next goal would be to learn French. I want to reach good speaking proficiency level for both the languages. Will it be a bad idea to start French in conjunction with German? I know nothing about french right now. So should I wait for french until my german becomes good enough or should I start poking my nose into it right away. Has anyone of you been learning two languages at a time? My roommate is french and has been learning german as well. but she says she has nightmares learning german and it is not a good idea for me to pick up french in tandem with german because I will end up getting confused and at the end will learn none of those two languages.. - DSachan (talk) 18:17, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not think there is a danger of mixing up the two. Given that you have the opportunity to speak French with your rommate, I would try!! Then, if it turns out to be a too heavy task, you can freeze one language and concentrate on the other. Good luck! --84.221.208.46 (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Given the time and the inclination, there is no problem with learning two (or more) languages at the same time. At a typical German "Gymnasium", you would start with English in 5th grade and with French (or Latin) in 6th grade, plus, possibly, a third foreign language in 8th grade. And German students (I speak from experience) are definitely no smarter than the rest of the world. There may be the occasional mix-up, but on the plus side, there will be some synergy as well: Once you have grabbed the concept of, e.g. case and gender, you can apply your knowledge to both French and German. T.a.k. (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

You're in a slightly different position from your roommate (assuming your native language is English). German is a germanic language, while French is a romance language, so there is quite a bit of difference between the two. (But not as much as between, say, German and Chinese, or French and Arabic.) English is a little bit of an odd duck. While technically a Germanic language, it's viciously robbed French and Latin for words, phrases, and grammar over the years, so it has a definite "romance language" coloring to it. Your roommate is probably having difficulties with German due to the whole Germanic/Romance divide, while you'll be comfortable straddling it. Due to the differences between German and French, I highly doubt you'll confuse the two - at least not to the same extent someone learning two romance languages (like French and Italian, or Spanish and Portuguese) would. -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Her English is even better than mine. So perhaps we are at the same level. But I understand the situation and now hold the opinion that it is indeed worth giving it a go to simultaneously learn both the languages. I give it a try. Thanks - DSachan (talk) 22:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

My experience was similar to what 128 above is implying, where learning two Romance languages simultaneously led to confusing lots of nouns. Tempshill (talk) 05:08, 21 May 2009 (UTC)