Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 26

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

October 26

Umlauts

I have looked at all the pages I could find on umlauts, but I still do not quite understand how to pronounce an umlaut. My question is if anyone has a simpler way that I can understand to explain how umlauts in German are pronounced. Filosojia X Non(Philosophia X Known) 06:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philosophia X Known (talk • contribs)

My German teacher told me it had the effect of squashing the vowel, and you produced that effect by squeezing your lips and tongue so the space in the mouth was narrower. Does that help? --TammyMoet (talk) 09:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)sq

I learned that you should pronounce the vowel as you would normally, but shape your mouth as if you are saying a different vowel. For "ö", you would say "o" as usual, except your mouth (well in this case just your tongue) would be positioned as if you were saying "u". I don't know if that makes any more sense to you; it's not exactly how those letters are pronounced, but it's a good approximation when you're starting out. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I have to disagree somewhat with Adam Bishop on this. If you want to pronounce long "ö", you need to pronounce German "ee" (similar to English "ay" but without the "y" offglide a the end) with your lips rounded. Short "ö" is a slightly different vowel, which you can produce by pronouncing "e" (as in English "red") while rounding your lips. You can produce long "ü" by pronouncing German "ie" (English "ee") with rounded lips. Short "ü" can be produced by pronouncing "i" (as in English "stick") while rounding your lips. As for "ä", it doesn't involve rounding at all. In most dialects of German, "ä" is pronounced just like "e" in the same position (long "ä" like German "ee", short "ä" like short German (or English) "e"). However, in some southern German dialects, this is true only for short "ä" (which still sounds like short "e"). In these southern German dialects, long "ä" has a unique sound that is difficult to describe to an English speaker. It is somewhere between short "e" and "a" as in "apple". Marco polo (talk) 15:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Argh, yes, that's what I meant. Sorry! I think what I described is how to pronounce /y/ (as in French "tu")... Adam Bishop (talk) 18:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

No, Adam, what you described was the pronunciation of English 'u'. 'U' in French is very close to German 'ü'. None of these sounds are anywhere near German 'ö'. But you know this, anyway...:) --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 21:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Ä is just like the German E ([e:] when long, [ɛ] when short). Ö is [ø:] when long and [œ] when short. Ü is [y:] when long and [ʏ] and when short. If you can't pronounce the rounded front vowels, I would go like this:

[e͡ʊ] (first part stressed) for /ø:/ [ɜ] for /œ/ [i͡u] (first part stressed) for /y:/ [ɪ͡ʊ] (first part stressed) for /ʏ/ --88.74.4.198 (talk) 17:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I expect the OP doesn't know IPA. After all, most people don't. --Tango (talk) 18:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Tango is right, I don't know IPA, but I think Marco Polo's was the best, except for the fact that I don't quite understand what you mean by long or short, but it's okay. Filosojia X Non(Philosophia X Known) 03:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Do we have some recordings to which we could refer this person? - Jmabel | Talk 04:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Something here must be useful. What does this sound like? I have no sound card. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

English punctuation here

[...] Our forefathers dedicated an entire amendment to this cause for a reason, to protect the people.

What is the correct punctuation here? Comma, semicolon, or colon? -- penubag  (talk) 09:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Colon. Semi-colon is wrong. Comma is not wrong but doesn't have the same sense of emphasis. A dash would be another option. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

See colon.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

What you want is a colon, and I'm going to disagree with Richardrj and say that a comma would change the meaning of the sentence. With a colon, the meaning of the latter part of the sentence is, "the reason was to protect the people". With a comma, it would be properly read as, "it was dedicated for a reason and it was dedicated to protect the people". Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree - a colon means the reason was to protect the people a comma means that the reason for having a reason was to protect the people. The former is almost certainly what is intended. --Tango (talk) 18:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

@Comet Tuttle: he didn't say the comma would change the meaning, he said it would change the emphasis.

And for what it's worth, even with a comma the sentence can still be read as "the meaning is to protect the people". rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

You're correct on both points; as I wrote, I'm disagreeing with him, because he didn't say it would change the meaning, whereas, when read properly, a comma does change the meaning. It is possible to read the sentence, improperly, in the way you say; but if using ordinary rules of grammar, a comma provides quite a different meaning than a colon, not merely a change of the amount of emphasis. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I thought it as a colon but wasn't 100%. I didn't know about the hyphens though. -- penubag  (talk) 08:25, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Making Little Words From Big Words

Can you please tell me is there a word that describes the process of "making little words from big words". For example the big word is soldier, the little words that you can make are sold, die, old, red, rid etc.

Thank you for your help

DiscoverIT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.215.202 (talk) 12:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The big word would be called a "portmanteau word". --TammyMoet (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

We have an article on portmanteaus, of course, at Portmanteau; but I thought a portmanteau had an element of intentionality to it, whereas I doubt that "soldier" is a word that was created thousands of years ago by combining those short words because they had something to do with the concept of a soldier. I think the OP is looking for a term for a word puzzle of some kind? Whether that's true or not, maybe Compound (linguistics) is closer? Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think this is what OP means. Soldier is not a portmanteau word for sold, die, old, red, and rid. What OP is talking about is called a variation without repetition (ordered subset of a given set) in mathematics. I don't know if there's a specific word for variations of letters of a given word that are words themselves in a natural language. A permutation of letters of a given word that is a word itself in a natural language is called an anagram. — Kpalion^(talk) 16:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Yep, portmanteau is not it. When you make up a related word by stripping false suffixes/prefixes off an existing word, that's called backformation (for example, archer --> "I'm gonna arch that"; unkempt --> "his hair is so kempt"). But that's not quite the same as what you've described, DiscoverIT, where it's based just on spelling rather than on morphology. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

• "Partial anagrams"? - Jmabel | Talk 05:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

My intention is "Making Little Words From Big Words" is being used in a word puzzle context / competition, what little words can you make from a big word. A big word for example is Christmas, little words (subset) that can be created (permutations) include mass, mast, am, rim, miss, Christ etc. etc. Basically you are creating numerous "partial anagrams" and that is the word I am looking for? DiscoverIT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.215.202 (talk) 14:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

How about calling them "hypograms"? —Tamfang (talk) 19:44, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

How many Czars?

Another user on another page said that she thought that "Czar" has the most spelling variations of any four character word using the Latin alphabet where all spellings mean the same thing. True or false? apologies to User:Deliriousandlost for stealing her question without permission. SpinningSpark 19:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

To give a completely uninformed opinion, it would largely depend on when you draw the line regarding entry requirements (and dialects?). Most words have a variety of historic spellings, though, if these are discounted as too obscure, some sort of transliteration is likely to give you quite a few, and Czar could be up there with the best, I don't really know. - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 20:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

And what do you mean by "the same thing"? There is the czar of Russia, and a drug czar, and they aren't really the same... Adam Bishop (talk) 21:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

OP means Tsar, Tzar, Csar and Czar all mean the same thing. Vimescarrot (talk) 22:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Tsar, Tzar, Csar, and Czar are all in current modern use (as much as in referring to to the past rulers), are all four characters, all have the same meaning, none are slang, all make use of the Latin alphabet (the Russian Царь is also 4 characters in the Cyrillic alphabet), and all are interchangeably used in other languages that use the Latin aphabet though different languages have their own preferred spellings. The preferred spelling in Spanish and Italian is Zar, Tsaar in Nederlands (though if part of a proper name is not changed from Tzar), and Tsaari in Finnish. King is a similar title and was used in Russia for a time but has word has comperable words in other languages of the Latin alphabet, most notably Rex in Latin and Roi in French. The Tsar of Russia and a drug czar are both rulers of their respective worlds. Words such as "read", "hear", and "tear" have alternate spellings with the same pronunciation, but have different meanings, and do not transcend English useage of the Latin alphabet. This came from the signature "Lord Spongefrog (I am the Czar of all Russias!)" that is used by User:Spongefrog. I mentioned this to Lord Spongefrog as something quirky to ponder as a distraction to a somewhat trying RfA, asking why if he is the ruler of Russia he is using the spelling most commonly used in American English. I never thought it would end up here. delirious & lost ☯ ^TALK 05:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I can't find any reference that csar is a valid spelling. The OED, Merriam-Webster online, and reference.com give czar, tsar, and tzar, and the OED also gives zarr, czaar, czarr, and ksar, which still gives 7 possibilities. For yogurt the OED gives yoghurd, yogourt, yahourt, yaghourt, yogurd, yoghourt, yooghort, yughard, yughurt, yohourth, yogurt, and yoghurt (12 spellings); however some of these spellings are rare or obsolete. The greatest variation seems to be with middle eastern and south Asian languages; the OED also has 9 spellings for purdah, 6 for jinn, and 5 for niqab.--Lesleyhood (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

See transliteration. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

'Honeypot' in German?

Hello. Is there an equivalent term in German for the term 'honeypot'? The use in this context is a tourist area that has become crowded. Are any of the terms "ein Honigbecher" or "ein Honigglas" used? Thanks in advance. --138.251.224.160 (talk) 20:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

None of the "honey" compounds work in German. There is the expression Massentourismus, but this is a generic term referring to the "tourism of the masses" and not the specific honeypots where they congregate. I am not aware of any proper term for such a magnet. Ooops, actually, Tourismus Magnet gets 60k hits, so it seems to be an option. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot :-) --138.251.224.160 (talk) 22:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Given the "underground" definition,[1] "a tourist area that has become crowded" sounds pretty funny. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I was only familiar with the "underground" definition until this thread. And last night I saw an episode of Drawn Together dubbed into German where the "underground" meaning of "honeypot" was translated with Honigdöschen. But that's not an established slang word of German, just a nonce word (which actually makes it funnier in German than in English). +Angr 16:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The only definition of "honeypot" I was aware of until recently was one not on that list. My former partner is from the North, and up there in the tundra you have to collect your urine and feces for pickup every day since there are no sewers or septic tanks. The pail you collect it in is the honeypot, and the truck that picks them up each day is the honey wagon. --NellieBly (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The one related to honeywagons and honeydippers was the one I thought of at first as well. It was mentioned in the Wiktionary entry but has been removed to the talk page as unverified. Rmhermen (talk) 21:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Given that ironic definition, if a spouse calls their mate "Honey", it might not be a compliment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)