Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 June 16

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June 16

Mandarin in Japanese

For the romanization of Mandarin, we have pinyin, that use diacritics to mark the four tones (ā, á, ǎ, à). Does Japanese have a valid system for the rendering of tones using only its syllabaries (hiragana, katakana)? They don't seem very suitable for such purpose. --151.51.22.137 (talk) 08:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Japanese does not have tones. See also Tone (linguistics). Oda Mari (talk) 09:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

However, many varieties of Japanese have a pitch accent system. AnonMoos (talk) 13:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for not being clear enough. Do japanese people have a native system to mark the 4 tones of Chinese (like we do with pinyin)? English language doesn't have tones, so we managed to find a system to express them. Have japanese people done the same thing? --151.51.22.137 (talk) 09:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for my misunderstanding. They use pinyin when they learn Mandarin. Oda Mari (talk) 09:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

So they first have to learn the Latin alphabet in order to learn a language which uses a lot of the same characters (albeit with different readings and meanings) as their own? How ironic. Rimush (talk) 10:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Not so ironic when you consider the fact that pinyin is the official system of romanisation adopted by the (Mainland) Chinese Government (as opposed to Bopomofo used mainly in Taiwan), and all Chinese learn to use it, and when I say all Chinese, I mean even the ones whose native language is not Mandarin (which is a lot of people!). The OP says, "Do japanese people have a native system to mark the 4 tones of Chinese (like we do with pinyin)? English language doesn't have tones, so we managed to find a system to express them." I think this is the wrong way of thinking. We do not have pinyin, the Chinese do. Pinyin may well be written in roman letters, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with English. It's an alphabetic system of rendering the pronunciation of a given word in Chinese, and it was adopted by the Chinese for that reason. Also, I have seen books teaching (very basic) Chinese in Japan, and some of them have had an approximation of the pronunciation in katakana using the same accents as pinyin to indicate tones, in exactly the same way that Bopomofo does - the OP may want to check that article out. As for Rimush's comment about Japanese first having "to learn the Latin alphabet in order to learn a language which uses a lot of the same characters (albeit with different readings and meanings) as their own" - well, this is not a problem because they start to learn the Latin alphabet in kindergarten these days, before they've even mastered katakana. In any case, it's very much akin to English speakers having to learn IPA in order to learn Irish or French, even though the writing systems of English, Irish and French use the same alphabet. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 13:42, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I never learned IPA and managed to learn foreign languages which use the (more or less) same alphabet as my native tongue, but I see your points. Rimush (talk) 22:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The English article Pinyin corresponds to the Japanese article ja:ピン音, where subsection 2.3 (声調) discusses tones.

—Wavelength (talk) 14:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

As kagetora wrote, a list of simple phrases in guide books for travelers describes Chinese pronunciation only in katakana. But it is not difficult for Japanese people to understand simple written Chinese sentences. I only have fragmentary knowledge of Chinese, but could easily and correctly understand these except B, I have no idea how to read them though. Oda Mari (talk) 15:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I feel obliged to object every time I see the reference: Bopomofo is not the specific name of a spelling system, it is a generic, colloquial and somewhat juvenile way of indicating a spelling system in Chinese. Zhuyin is called "bopomofo" by those first learning it, and so is pinyin, and any other romanisation system that might be used depending on the learner. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:18, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I understand that, but the page for Bopomofo is a redirect from Zhuyin. Also, in my experience, having spent time as a student only in Mainland China and never in Taiwan - and therefore never having had a reason to learn Zhuyin other than out of pure interest - the people I have associated with, including my teachers, have usually referred to it as Bopomofo. I agree it is probably colloquial, but then there was no 'official' reason for us to really be talking about it, as it had nothing to do with our course (it did, however, have relevance to the tiny few of us who were going to Taiwan, but even they came back calling it Bopomofo). By the way, pinyin was never called 'bopomofo' by any of my teachers, nor is it called that by anyone I know. The name 'bopomofo', on the rare occasions that it has come up in conversation, has always been restricted in meaning zhuyin. 'Pinyin', on the other hand, can refer to a number of writing systems, as you know. I'm sure you know a fair bit more than I do on the subject, PalaceGuard, I'm just explaining my own experience with the word. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Pinyin is pinyin, and bopomofo is the system I learned in Taiwan. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:44, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Derivation of the word "Laodicea"

Desire meaning of the word 'Laodicea'. My guess: LAO=people DICEA=speak 70.100.72.71 (talk) 11:30, 16 June 2010 (UTC)laoq

If you mean this one, it was named for the queen Laodice I, the wife of Antiochus II Theos. I have no source handy for the etymology of her name, but I assume that the first element is as you say but the second element is δίκη, "law" or "justice". Dic(t) meaning "speak" is Latin, not Greek. Deor (talk) 12:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

We also have Laodice of Macedonia, after whom five cities were named - are they the same woman? DuncanHill (talk) 12:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Not the same, but possibly an ancestress, as she was the mother of Seleucus I Nicator, who founded the dynasty to which Antiochus belonged (and the later Laodice was, as our article says, perhaps his cousin as well as his wife). I guessed that the OP was referring to the most famous (because of the New Testament mentions) Laodicea. Deor (talk) 12:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The Seleucid empire had four royal dynastic names for cities founded or re-established by Selucid monarchs -- Seleuceia, Antiokheia (Antioch), Laodicea, and Apameia -- so there were a lot of places named "Laodicea" within the Seleucid realm. (Even Jerusalem was to be renamed into an Antioch under the plans of Antiochus IV Epiphanes/Epimanes.) I don't know the meaning of Laodicea, but the stem deik- in ancient Greek (e.g. deiknumi) means "to point out", not "to speak" (probably the older Indo-European meaning of the root), and I agree that Laodicea is more likely to be derived from ΔΙΚΗ... AnonMoos (talk) 12:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Off-track but Laodicean was last year's winning word in the Scripps National Spelling Bee. Rmhermen (talk) 13:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Maori in letters

Hi. I am applying for a job in the University of Waikato and would like to include a couple of Maori references in it. Firstly, I would like to change the salutation from "Dear Dr X" to "Kia Ora". Is this OK? Secondly, I want to say that I am familiar with Marae protocol, as I worked in Auckland for five years often working closely with Maori. I have indeed been welcomed (at a formal powhiri, as a representative of the university of Auckland) by the Tainui tribe.

The letter currently says "I have experience of working in a New Zealand (at The University of Auckland) and am familiar with Marae protocol. As a NZ citizen, and tangata whenua Tainui, I am keen to return". Is this form of words OK? Anyone got any better wording? Thanks, Robinh (talk) 15:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, the only criticism I can make is that you may want to omit 'a' before New Zealand in 'I have experience of working in a New Zealand'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Somewhat off the main question, and depending on your reader, you might be more direct in your statements. "I worked at the University of Auckland," or, even better, highlight those aspects of your experience that related to the position you seek.

• "While on staff at the Mira Szászy Research Centre, I scheduled speakers for blah blah blah..."
• "Knowing Marae protocol enabled me to blah blah blah..."

Whether in English or in Maori, you want to make it easy for your reader to grasp the value that you bring to the organization, and ideally show some knowledge of the challenges the position is meant to address. That value is always in the reader's terms. --- OtherDave (talk) 20:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

"Kia ora" is an informal greeting (like "hi") and is probably not appropriate for the formality of a job application. http://www.korero.maori.nz/forbusiness/using.html offers advice for business letters. Like all aspects of job applications, don't make any claims in your letter you can't back up in interview...so familiarise yourself with any terms you use (pronunciation, use, reply, meaning etc) so you can respond appropriately in interview. If in doubt, say so: "ignorant but keen to know more" is better than "I think I know everything even when I don't". Also check your spelling: it has become recently become formal practice to use macrons over long vowels, hence "Māori" rather than "Maori", which you might consider more appropriate for your formal letter. Formality would also require you to write "New Zealand" rather than abbreviate with "NZ". One query: Are you of Tainui descent? Your opening paragraph implies you were only a guest on University business, not tāngata whenua; a marae welcome grants only temporary or honorary status. Gwinva (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Word Usage

"I'm not a fan of the green olive."

When I refer to green olives, as I did above, with the word "the," what is it called, why would it be done? I'm just looking for a general description of whatever is going on in that sentence. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 16:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

The definite article acting as a determiner? Pallida  Mors 17:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

the word 'the' (called an article in English) is generally used to specify unique objects. e.g. "The president" specifies a singular individual whereas "A president" can refer to any of a number of people who've held the post. When it's applied to objects that are not normally considered in unique individual terms, however, it becomes a kind of universalizer/emphatic. e.g.:

• "I'm not a fan of that green olive" - a particular green olive displeases you for some reason (oddly shaped, maybe?)
• "I'm not a fan of green olives" - I don't like green olives as a rule
• "I'm not a fan of the green olive" - I don't even like the idea of green olives.

It's a bit pretentious sounding, so it's not a common usage.

This assumes, of course, that you're not talking about a store (or maybe a superhero) called "the Green Olive". --Ludwigs2 17:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Contrast with "I'm not a fan of the green olives." (plural), which generally interpreted to mean "I'm not a fan of those green olives that are being served currently, although I'm not making any claims about other green olives which may be served in the future." -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 17:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I should also note that the interpretation is simplified with mass nouns (or words used as such), where "I'm not a fan of the taramosalata" refers to a particular taramosalata (e.g. the one currently served), whereas "I'm not a fan of taramosalata." (no article) means that you don't like taramosalata in general. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 17:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, that's true. I hadn't considered that interpretation. --Ludwigs2 18:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

You'll see "the" with a singular noun used in reference to a group of people in cases like the title of this article. It tends to be used of minority groups, and, as often as not, disparagingly. It reminds me of descriptions of non-human animates - "The double-breasted warbler makes its home in tall trees ...". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It also occurs in the name of the website The Wikipedian.—Wavelength (talk) 19:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

As mentioned by Jack of Oz, it is perfectly usual to use "the" before the name of a species (common not Latin name, and singular not plural). "The kakapo parrot is an endangered species", "the polar bear is not found in Antarctica", "the Bramley apple is best known as a cooking apple". Here we are not speaking of an individual of the species, but the species. So even if a "green olive" is not the name of a species, it is being treated as such. Sussexonian (talk) 20:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A category of women is discussed by http://www.multilingualbible.com/1_corinthians/7-34.htm. —Wavelength (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

A person who says "The customer is always right" is probably referring to customers in general.—Wavelength (talk) 23:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Generic usage. As a first approximation, singular with a(n), singular with the and bare plural are all OK: The Englishman's home is his castle / An Englishman's home is his castle / Englishmen's homes are their castles. Yes, The customer is always right is generic (unless an unusual context specifies otherwise); we prefer "the" because this is an ossified catchphrase, but A customer is always right and Customers are always right would be OK too. ¶ Heesowever, this approximation isn't quite adequate, because (to me at least) I'm a fan of a green olive would beg the question "Oh really? Which one?" (Cf the odd I'm a fan of a novel, which -- at least to me -- could never mean a liking for all novels.) And I'm a fan of green olives seems to me to have a very slightly different nuance. So perhaps the only reliable form for generic is definite singular, which can be supplemented by indefinite plural and indefinite singular when conditions are right; however, I haven't thought this through. ¶ Here's more on generics and definiteness and articles in English. -- Hoary (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that Otto Jespersen's classic multi-volume English grammar has an extended discussion of generics, where he establishes that all four combinations of indefinite vs. definite and singular vs. plural can serve to signal generic meaning in English (though some are more common than others, of course). AnonMoos (talk) 03:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

There is a nuance between "I'm not a fan of cheesy chips" and "I'm not a fan of the cheesy chip". I only know this as a native speaker, would be very interested to read the result of a systematic investigation into this question. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

BTW "Not a fan of the cheesy chip" sounds like a recent formulation, 1960s onwards, post Jespersen anyway. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:48, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Archaic Dutch declension

Dear friend on the English Wikipedia,

With apologies for my lack of knowlege about English language, I want to write you the following:

Your article Archaic Dutch declension is realy concerning me. Indead, Dutch knew a long time ago declension because of having cases. The article says right: this declension wasn't used in dayly talking, but just a formality in written language.

But then... I cannot find any literature that tells about a vocative and a locative in (writen and archaic) Dutch at all. There are certainly ways, gramaticle constructions, that take over the function of these cases in Dutch comparing with Latin, but this seems to be really nonsens. Also does declension of all pronouns. It looks like some one translated the German grammar with Ducht examples.

The indefinite article has no plural as such, but "vele" (many) may be taken as its plural? May taken as a indefinit article? Vele is a collective numeral, also specified in Dutch grammar as a so called indefinite numeral (e.g. much, manny, lots, few).

The chapter Diminutives is not about archaic Dutch! Is about modern Dutch since the last two times we officially changes our spelling in 1995 and 2005.

I hope some one with more knowlege of English and Dutch both can review and overwrite this article. It's worth explaning about languages on this Wiki, but this article is not telling the truth.

Last thing: furthermore your English Wikipedia is a succes full project and I like the most of your articles. Please go on succeeding!

Mark Coenraats (talk) 21:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for contributing. If you don't feel able to make changes yourself, the place to discuss the problems in the article is in its talk page. --ColinFine (talk)

I copied the discussion to Talk:Archaic Dutch declension. Please contribute there, at one place, and not (also) here. Greetings, Mark Coenraats (talk) 13:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

English for Swedish "Idrott"

What would be a reasonable English translation for the Swedish term idrott? The handy venn diagram on the Swedish page for that would suggest it is "physical sports and physically active pastimes" (for which I can't think of an English word or handy term). SV->EN dictionaries just say "sport", making names like IF Boltic just translate "sports club Boltic". Is there an obvious English cognate that I'm missing, or some other suitable term? -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 21:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

It's probably akin to German Leibesübungen, as in the name of VfL Wolfsburg - don't know about an English translation, though. Rimush (talk) 21:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

"Sports" or "games" would be fine - for a sports club (such as IF Boltic), then sports club would appear to be an excellent translation. DuncanHill (talk) 21:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

After looking at the Venn diagram in the Swedish article, "physical activities" is the best I can come up with. "Sports" and "games" both convey an element of competition that is not necessarily present in idrott, and the latter includes many non-physical pastimes. Deor (talk) 22:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Recreation Club? Bielle (talk) 22:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

To me, a "recreation club" suggests snooker, darts, beer consumption, etc more than it does physical sports and physically active pastimes, although it can indeed encompass these. -- Hoary (talk) 03:27, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

How about "athletic" or "athletics"? In English, this term encompasses both formal sports and noncompetitive forms of vigorous exercise, such as mountaineering or swimming for exercise. Marco polo (talk) 13:02, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that is a good translation, at least in the AmE sense of the word "athletics". It is worth noting, though, there are a number of Swedish organisations called <SomeTown> Atletklubb, and they all seem to focus on weight lifting, body building and possibly wrestling. I.e., the scope of the word used in the names of Swedish clubs is a bit narrower. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 18:09, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but that is the Swedish words atlet and atletisk, which do have a more narrow meaning than the ethymologically corresponding words in English. A Swedish atlet would in English not be any "athlete" but rather a "hunk" or "strongman". I think "athletics" would be a good translation for idrott even if "sport" would be a sufficient translation in many cases too. The Great Cucumber (talk) 08:07, 21 June 2010 (UTC)