Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 May 15

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May 15

ne'er cast a clout 'fore May is out

I'd like to know where this expression came from and have I spelt 'clout' correctly. I think clout means something like a singlet or vest which is not to be taken off the body until the May bush is out in the northern hemisphere> Can anyone give me an explanation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.213.166.163 (talk) 06:29, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

For 'clout' read winter clothing and the argument is always whether the expression means the end of the month of May or the flowering of the Hawthorn (or May) bush, apparently there are similar phrases in both French and Spanish[1]. Mikenorton (talk) 08:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

That's very interesting. Just from the phrase (which I hadn't heard before), I would have assumed the meaning was not to start planting until May. That is, "There's no sense digging out clouts of earth (for a garden) before May is over because late frosts will kill the plants." Matt Deres (talk) 14:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

See also Clootie, for a Scots version. Mikenorton (talk) 14:21, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I always thought a clootie was a kind of dumpling. DuncanHill (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

And so it is, a dumpling cooked wrapped in a cloth (or cloot). Mikenorton (talk) 23:52, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Further to Mikenorton's correct explanation, it's sometimes rendered as ". . . the may . . ." when the flowering tree (named of course for the month in which it flowers) is intended, which I think is more likely the original version. Note however that English May Day celebrations used to be referred to as "bringing in the May", so that "the May is out" could be a reference to those celebrations having been concluded in early May. Depending on how old it is (I suspect very old), the change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar may have either restored or diminished the saw's accuracy, as may future global warming effects (which currently in the UK seem to be extending the duration of cold weather further into the year.) 87.81.230.195 (talk) 15:44, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

For anyone wondering, the may-flowers came out this week in southern England and it's been bloody freezing (frost at night, 12 degrees Celsius daytime max) so the proverb is right. I think the May Day thing with may-flowers must have been before the change in calenders. It warmed up a bit today, so I threw caution to the wind and cast a few clouts. Alansplodge (talk) 23:31, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the first May-blossom I saw this year was last Saturday, 8th May. That was just north of Devil's Dyke in Sussex. DuncanHill (talk) 23:34, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Quoting speech of a book/movie character

When you quote something a character in a movie or a book says, what is the convention and style for the attribution? Do you attribute the quote to the character or the author? Also, in a movies, if one character is speaking, the camera cuts away in the middle of it and another character speaks, and the camera cuts back to the first character, who continues what he/she was saying, do you insert an ellipsis to mark the interruption in the middle of the quoted speech? If a story is released both as a movie and as a published script, and the lines differ in the two version, do people usually quote the movie version or the script version? --173.49.14.197 (talk) 15:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Just my opinion, but here goes. Attribution would depend on the context; if you were describing the plot, I would credit it to the character, but if you were discussing the writing, I'd choose the author. I'd also go with the movie version unless you were specifically talking about the script. Finally, an ellipsis makes sense. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:44, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Your comment about context makes sense. It seems to me that attributing to the author is appropriate only when a quote is treated as a sample of the author's writing. The dialogs in a movie or book are written for the characters involved, and reflect their viewpoints and moralities, which are generally not those of the author; it would seem inappropriate to attribute them to author. --173.49.14.197 (talk) 14:42, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes it's impossible to know where the words originated from - the author, the translator(s) or the screenwriter(s) - without reading the original book, any relevant translations, and the screenplay. For example, one of my favourite quotes is:

• You make me sick with your heroics! There's a stench of death about you. You carry it in your pack like the plague. Explosives and L-pills - they go well together, don't they? And with you it's just one thing or the other: destroy a bridge or destroy yourself. This is just a game, this war! You and Colonel Nicholson, you're two of a kind, crazy with courage. For what? How to die like a gentleman ... how to die by the rules - when the only important thing is how to live like a human being

from The Bridge on the River Kwai, spoken by Commander Shears, the character played by William Holden. I'd love to know whether these words appeared in Pierre Boulle's original book (English title The Bridge over the River Kwai - in which case do we attribute them to Boulle or to whoever the English translator was?), or whether they were created by the screenwriters, Michael Wilson and Carl Foreman, for the movie. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:21, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from Google Books, it's not in the English translation of the book. I searched on "heroics", "stench", "human being", and "L-pills"; none of the hits resembled this passage. --Anonymous, 21:58 UTC, May 15, 2010.

Thank you. So, it's down to the screenwriters, eh. Very good. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Grammar

Is there a flaw in any of the sentences below: 1) I am bad at Math. 2) I am bad in Math. 3) I am yet to receive the card. 4) I have yet to receive the card.

59.182.16.75 (talk) 18:36, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

(1) and (2) are fine, bu there is a subtle distinction. (1) implies that you are bad at math in general, while (2) may imply that you are bad in a math class. (3) is just wrong; you can't form the compound past like that in Modern English. (4) is fine. 76.229.218.70 (talk) 18:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

(3) is fine, indeed "I am yet to receive" is almost a stock phrase. DuncanHill (talk) 20:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

In what language? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 04:05, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

English. It sounds unusual, but take the yet out and it becomes clear. To be to + verb is a sort of future tense formation. -- the Great Gavini 12:56, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

If you're talking about your mathematical ability in general, you wouldn't capitalise "math". But if you were referring to a particular class you're attending (say, Mathematics 202, informally known as "Math"), then you might have "Math". It obviously makes no difference either way in speaking, but in writing you could give the wrong impression by using the capital M where it's not required, or vice-versa. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:39, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! I have some more:

1) I haven't received the card yet. 2) I haven't yet received the card.

Thats all for today :P 59.182.16.75 (talk) 20:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

I think both of them are OK, but the second one maybe is a little more formal (I am not sure though). At least here in Britain I think it is. Chevymontecarlo. 20:15, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, one might say (informally) "I haven't received the card yet", but one might write (or say) (formally) "I have not yet received the card". (3) above would be correct with commas if you meant "I am, nevertheless, to receive the card", but it sounds odd (perhaps stilted, rather than strictly wrong) in the sense you meant. Dbfirs 20:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

No, 'I am yet to receive the card' works just fine, and carries the intended meaning. 'Yet' doesn't mean 'nevertheless' in this context; it's a preposition of time, as in 'not yet'. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Okies! Thank you all! BTW, with regards to the original post viz. (1) and (2), can I conclude that one is usually bad at something than bad in something. Like, "John is bad at writing poems" rather than "John is bad in writing poems".

Yes, similarly, one is good at something (though one exception is ".... in bed") Dbfirs 20:41, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Because "good in bed" is a euphemism for "good at lovemaking", which is usually done "in bed" rather than "at bed", although anything's possible. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:33, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

There's always the spacious back seat

Of our roommate`s beat up Chevrolet. PhGustaf (talk) 23:08, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the time-honored Chevy chase. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

MY CHEVY IS BAD IN ALL WAYS POSSIBLE! Say what? Say what? Hehe 59.182.47.98 (talk) 07:48, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

I needs some words

Wiktionary is not cooperating with my computer for some reason! If you guys don't mind, I would like a list of words/terms related to these words. Im writing a story, you see.

Universe (besides mandala, astral plane, and the cosmos)

The Earth (besides Terra and the ground)

Celestial things in general (besides galaxies)

Macabre things in general (besides doom, dread, nightmares, and death)

Again, I appreciate any help submitted. Thanks 64.75.158.195 (talk) 23:45, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Wikisaurus. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:55, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Since Wiktionary isn't working for the OP, he or she may want to try Roget's Thesaurus. Just enter universe or whatever into the "Search full text" box. (For some reason, macabre doesn't appear in the work, but I got some useful results by entering gruesome, horror, and such.) Deor (talk) 03:19, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the website, but Roget's Thesaurus is a little... disorganized and slow on my system. I usually perfer individual people giving me words for some reason. Also, i need words that are also related to the original by definition, not just synonyms (like how "mandala" is a symbol of the universe)

Oh, and three more words: Insanity (besides psychopathy and dementia), heavenly places (besides paradise and utopia), and dystopia. Thanks! 64.75.158.195 (talk) 04:35, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Universe – heavens, the last frontier, outer space Earth – home world, third planet Celestial things in general – solar system, spiral arm DOR (HK) (talk) 08:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC) Earth - Third rock from the sun —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.212.189.187 (talk) 13:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Some words which refer to the Earth begin with "geo" (geography, geology, ...). -- Irene1949 (talk) 19:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC)