Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 October 8

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October 8

Double -er in fruiterer

OK, here's my question of the day. A fruiterer is one who sells fruit. Where did the double -er come from? Is there any other English word that ends in -erer? The closest I can think of is emperor (but that's not one who sells emps). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:34, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, there are some others: litterer, flatterer, ditherer, maybe fritterer - but the root of all these words is the part without the final -er, not the part without the -erer. Fruiterer seems to be an exception, unless it's possible to "fruiter" something (cf. litter, flatter, dither, fritter). There's also bitterer, but that's a comparative adjective and not in the same class as the words I'm talking about. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The OED says (in -er¹ 3), "In several instances -er has the appearance of being an unmeaning extension of earlier words ending in -er denoting trades or offices. Most of these words are of Fr. origin, as caterer, †cytolerer (= CITOLER), †fermerer, †feuterer, fruiterer, poulterer; an analogous case in a native word is upholsterer. The real formation of these words is obscure: some are prob. from vbs., while in other cases formation on words in -ery may be conjectured." —Bkell (talk) 04:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

That mention of -ery is the explanation in this case, I think. Apparently fruitery (or fruitage) is kept in a fruitery by a fruiterer. 81.131.21.131 (talk) 18:10, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The /usr/share/dict/words file on the system where I'm typing this, which is based on the "Webster's 2nd" online word list, has exactly 300 words ending in -erer. However, on a quick look through them, all the ones where I can tell what they mean are based on adding -er (either the agent suffix or the comparative suffix) to a root that already ends in -er (or -ere). I didn't notice any that are like "fruiterer", although I could easily have missed some, either through carelessness or because they are foreign dialect usages like "fruiterer". --Anonymous, 04:41 UTC, October 8, 2010.

OED has:

• fruiter: †a. One who deals in, or has the care of fruit. b. A vessel engaged in the fruit-trade. c. A tree that produces fruit. d. A fruit-grower.
• fruiterer: 1. A dealer in fruit; a fruit-seller. †2. A fruit-grower. Obs.

and my personal favorite:

• fruiteress: A female seller of fruit.

if that helps any. :) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 04:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

How very interesting. I wonder which came first, 'fruiter' or 'fruiterer'; and why the latter one got created when the first one was already in use; and why we only use the non-standard 'fruiterer' these days, spurning the standard 'fruiter'. Lots of food for thought there. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:00, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Good question! :) "Fruiterer? But I just met her!" WikiDao ☯ (talk) 20:48, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

The OED's first illustration of fruiter in the "fruit-seller" sense is from 1483, and its first illustration of fruiterer is from 1408, so it doesn't seem to be a case of "the latter one got created when the first one was already in use". Fruiterer seems to have always been the principal word for a fruit-seller; fruiter has been more often used to refer to a ship used to transport fruit, a tree that bears fruit, or a fruit-grower. Deor (talk) 09:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

It's an entirely different class of ending, but "children" has an unexplained double suffix ('-n' on the already plural 'childer'). So for that matter has 'kine' ('-n' on 'ky', cf. 'mice', 'lice'). --ColinFine (talk) 09:38, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, all. I am happy to have added a new word to my lexicon, fruitery. Very nice. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Mario Vargas Llosa

How is his last name pronounced. I saw the spanish IPA given in our article, but somewhere else in the internet, i saw it being pronounced as "Yosha". which one is correct?--Sodabottle (talk) 03:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I corrected the spelling of the middle name (Vargas, not Bargas). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I can't think where the "sh" sound would come from. "Yo-sa" is an approximate rendering in an ad hoc phonetic transcription, of the name in English and Spanish (if yeísmo is to be taken for granted). Note that, if "last name" is to be taken as a surname, family name, etc., then technically Vargas Llosa is his "last name". -- the Great Gavini 04:48, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. changed to yo-sa (this was for Tamil wikipedia)--Sodabottle (talk) 05:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

So, to sum up (and answer GreatGavini's doubt), his (literally) last name, Llosa, can be rendered as [ˈʎosaˈ] (llo-sa) if yeísmo is not assumed, or much in the way of (yo-sa) or (sho-sa) if yeísmo is considered. The last form is basically only used in the Rioplatense variety of Spanish (i.e Argentina, Uruguay...). By the way, Peruvians apparently distinguish between [y] and [ll] sounds. I should add that I'm almost completely ignorant of IPA stuff (sniff). Pallida  Mors 09:46, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

On the "sh" sound, isn't it the case that in many varieties of Spanish "s" is rendered not exactly as in English but a bit closer to what we think of as "sh"? I remember having a lot of historical stuff drummed into me about that, but have forgotten it now. Some connection with how "finissez" in French ends up as English "finish". Itsmejudith (talk) 10:20, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

There is some info under "Variants of /s/ and coda /s/ debuccalization". ---Sluzzelin talk 10:30, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the basic s sound in Castilian Spanish sounds to my Latin American ears more like /sh/ than /s/, though I have learnt it is indeed an apico-alveolar sound. On the other hand, Latin American Spanish, prone to seseo, has a very "s" sounding /s/ :p. Pallida  Mors 10:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I've learned Spanish the Latin American way, but I had a teacher who has from Santiago de Compostela, and his s sounded like an English sh. Latin American Spanish indeed pronounces s as s, but coda debuccalization is prominent in Caribbean Spanish which I was heavily influenced by. Rimush (talk) 10:59, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

E-mail reply etiquette

I've just receieved a reply to my original e-mail, and I would like to respond to the reply. In a business setting, should I address the recipient with another salutation (e.g. Dear Mr.X, a second time)? --The Dark Side (talk) 14:49, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I consulted Top 26 Most Important Rules of Email Etiquette - About Email, and I did not find an answer to your question. When I respond to replies which I have received to my original messages, I use a salutation again. (The external link is to a website which also advertises weight loss, which I do not remember seeing there before. Economic pressure seems to be forcing more websites to advertise.)

—Wavelength (talk) 15:22, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

When in doubt, err on the side of caution. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not clear cut. As Rjanag said, you should err on the side of caution, but you should be aware that people may interpret it differently than what you intend. For example, if there is a group of people on the email, your inclusion of a specific name may make the individual feel singled out. If you open your letter with a "Dear Ms. X" or "Dear Mr. Y", the person on the other side may feel somewhat put off because they thought they had started building a personal rapport with you and your use of that salutation will be read as being overly formal and stiff. My basic rule of thumb is to only use Mr. X if I'd use it in oral conversation with them (versus using their first name) and to follow their lead; if their reply to you started with "Mr. The Dark Side", I'd recommend doing likewise. Matt Deres (talk) 17:08, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Matching their tone is key. You start out formal, and if they start signing in a more casual way, you should do the same. Likewise for language; if they use words that aren't in the normal dialect of your region or your social group, try to copy their word usage. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 04:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Distinguish spoken Wallon from French

How can I distinguish spoken Wallon from French? I can distinguish written Wallon from French and I have studied a little French, but not enough to tell them apart. Thanks. 24.92.78.167 (talk) 17:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Have you read Walloon language? It would seem that there are several distinct differences, such as the lack of gender difference in definite articles and possessives, and the adjective preceding rather than following the noun. However, the article also states that hardly anyone speaks Walloon these days. Did you mean Belgian French instead? That's less distinct, but a few differences are mentioned. Rojomoke (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Here's a clip showing Faux Contact's Commandant changing a tyre in Walloon (with French subtitles). ---Sluzzelin talk 11:57, 9 October 2010 (UTC)