Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 April 17

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April 17

Need help in translating this French sentence

Could someone please translate this French sentence to English: Une pierre pour toucher les yeux, enchassié en or? I can only make out two words: stone and gold. Thank you. I need it for an article I am editing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's a sentence, but just a fragment - a museum label, perhaps? "A stone for touching the eyes, encased/mounted in gold". Disclaimer: I am unfamiliar with any verb 'enchassier', but its meaning seems apparent from form and context. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I believe it refers to a stone with alleged magical powers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

If it's actually enchâssé en or it means "set in gold". Angr (talk) 09:00, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

And it should be enchâssée, since une pierre is feminine. --Xuxl (talk) 10:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Lucky Pierre. :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 12:58, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help. The stone in question is a "magical stone" with alleged healing properties which belonged to a French noblewoman in 1470.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:02, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

What is the meaning implied in the name of 2011 British film "Retreat"?

Information about the film can be found in this Wikipedia article.

The official site says the following:

"Taking an isolated break on an uninhabited island, Martin (Cillian Murphy -The Dark Night, 28 Days Later) and Kate (Thandie Newton -2012, RocknRolla) are about to find that their island retreat is about to become a prison of unimaginable terror."

What is the meaning implied in the film's name? Is it something similar to army withdrawal?

I would like to know the opinion of native speakers that have seen the film or read the description. The problem we have is related to difficulties in translating this film's name into other languages, that's why my question was asked here and not in Entertainment. Tnank you Baradyarad (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

A "retreat" is also a place to go on holiday. The idea is to get away from your busy life and have a relaxing vacation. It's related to the other usual meaning, the retreat of an army - in that case the army would be moving away from danger or trouble. I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know if both meanings are intended in the title. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

See Retreat (spiritual) - which is not exactly a "holiday", at least in the usual sense. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 16:39, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, for those that haven't seen the movie and cannot be bothered to read the description, could you please say at least if the following sentence from the film's site: "their island retreat is about to become a prison" can be interpreted as: "their island withdrawal is about to become a prison"? Baradyarad (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

No, in that sentence they are using the "vacation/holiday" meaning. However, I suspect they picked that word because of it's double meaning, as they later need to "retreat", as in withdrawal under fire. StuRat (talk) 17:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

If I were going to translate the title, I would translate the non-military meaning of retreat. Retreat in this sense actually has a slightly different meaning than "vacation" or "holiday". In this sense, retreat means either 1) a time when a person chooses to separate himself or herself from his or her regular routine or the demands of worldly life and to seclude himself or herself (perhaps with other like-minded people) in a peaceful setting, sometimes for a specific purpose, or 2) a peaceful locale where people go to seclude themselves. For example, people speak of spiritual retreats (perhaps focused on meditation) or writing retreats. A vacation or holiday might be described as a retreat, but a vacation gambling and drinking in Las Vegas would not normally be described as a retreat. Many cultures have a concept of spiritual retreat, and you might try a word in your target language with that meaning. While the title might have been chosen, as StuRat suggests, because of the double entendre of the word retreat, I think it was very likely chosen at least in part because of the ironic contrast between the intended peaceful retreat and the hellish nightmare that ensued. Marco polo (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Cillian Murphy was in The Dark Knight, not something called The Dark Night. And if the article is interested in discussing his roles, Batman Begins would be a better choice, as he has a tiny role in The Dark Knight. 69.62.243.48 (talk) 19:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

To "retreat" is to "draw back", i.e. to pull back from someplace.[1] In the noun sense it means a place of seclusion and presumed safety. Marco is onto it: They could have accomplished the same by saying that "their safe haven is about to turn into hell". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

All this reminds me of my puzzlement, once upon a time, that so many entries in a certain biographical index said things like chef de bataillon en retraite (commander of a retreating battalion?!). Eventually it hit me that men in question were retired officers. —Tamfang (talk) 07:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

They seem not to be of precisely the same origin, but the one is a synonym of the other.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:43, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

The search phrase "island retreat" gets 1,130,000 Google results. Alansplodge (talk) 15:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Greek etymology entanglements: poppies and death

So these are the facts as i understand it:

• Poppies being symbolic of death comes from greek/roman mythology, where poppies were offered to the dead. poppy

• κήδεια is the modern greek word for funeral

• κώδεια is the ancient greek for a poppy head (i.e. codeine)

• my greek friend insists the root is different Surely this can't be coincidence? Any thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.108.145.39 (talk) 18:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I heard the association with death was because poppies tend to grow in recently disturbed dirt, as in a grave. Can anyone confirm or debunk this ? StuRat (talk) 19:30, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Modern Greek κηδεία descends from ancient Greek κῆδος, which meant "care", especially care for the dead. Ancient κώδεια meant "head" and frequently was used of the seed heads of plants, such as the poppy. The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots says that the latter comes from the IE root keuə-, meaning "vault" or "hole" and is related to ancient Greek κῶος, "hollow place", "cave". It seems that your friend is correct; the words are unrelated. Deor (talk) 22:23, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

(ec) According to this etymological dictionary, there is no relation between the two words, though the origin of each is uncertain. Lesgles (talk) 22:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

If we're not certain of their origins, how do know they have no relation? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 01:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I should say that the dictionary I found also linked κηδεία to κῆδος, but none of the hypotheses for the ultimate etymology listed under either entry linked the two words. Anything's possible, but etymologists have their reasons; it may be that the ώ / ή sound change is not found in other instances and is therefore not plausible. Also, as Deor found, the words also have other meanings which would need to be explained. Lesgles (talk) 04:38, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, ω and η may reflect Proto-Indo-European /ō/ and /ē/ respectively, which can occur in different forms of the same root. But I'd think it more likely that the association of poppies with death comes from the (chance) resemblance of the words, rather than the other way around. —Tamfang (talk) 07:25, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd say it's more likely that the association of poppies with death comes from the narcotic effect of poppies, and the chance resemblance of the words is nothing more than a happy coincidence. Angr (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Grrr coincidence, Oh well, atleast i have a nice mental cue if i'm ever trying to remember the word for funeral! ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.108.145.39 (talk) 14:25, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Article

I know we use "an" before the words start with a vowel but what happened if there is an adj. Let say: a big apple or an big apple?65.128.159.201 (talk) 21:40, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

If there are adjectives, use 'an' when the adjective directly after the article begins with a vowel sound ('easy', 'honourable', 'outstanding'), but not when it doesn't ('big', 'small'). It doesn't matter what the noun, or any other adjectives begin with. So in your example, it would be 'a big apple'. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

You had it right in your question: we use "an" before the words [that] start with a vowel. An adjective is a word, like any other; if it starts with a vowel, use "an" before it and not "a".

It's all about euphony and has nothing to do with anything more complex than that.

But remember, it's about vowel sounds and not necessarily about vowel letters. For example, the word "euphonious" starts with a vowel letter (e) but the opening syllable is "yoo", which would start with a consonant (y) if we wrote it "yoophonious". Therefore, we say "a euphonious sound", not "an euphonious sound". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:20, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

For the reverse exception, how about an X-ray ? StuRat (talk) 23:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Right, an ex-ray. As opposed to a zylophone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

So the correct rule is to write "an" before any word that is pronounced as if it begins with a vowel. (e.g. "an herb" in American English, but "a herb" in British English). ... but then there are a few people who say (and write) "an hotel", even when they pronounce the "h", because they were taught that "hotel" takes "an" by someone who didn't pronounce the "h" (or by someone whose teacher didn't), and the logic got lost in the chain. </rant> Dbfirs 07:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

The A/An situation in English is roughly equivalent to the concept of liaison in the French language. The reasoning is to avoid diaeresis, that is to avoid pronouncing two vowel sounds side-by-side. In some non-standard English dialects, this is also accomplished via the intrusive R, but in most standard forms of English the A/An situation is the only example of liaison I can think of. --Jayron32 19:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice try, but historically indefensible. The "n" is in no way intrusive, but a part of the full stem of the word. The "n" is dropped from "an" (a sister form of the word "one"), not added to "a". The same thing used to happen to "mine" and "thine" ("Mine eyes have seen", "Avert thine eyes"), which were shortened to "my" and "thy" before consonants, and then even before vowels, as well. The reason was not to prevent two vowels being pronounced together, but to avoid saying a declensional/conjugational "n" before an inititial consonant. Verb and noun endings with "n" had already largely died out by the end of the Middle English period ("children" and "oxen" being rare exceptions that survive). The process continued with "mine", "thine" and "an", probably because the "n" was misinterpreted as a declensional ending. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:16, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, still similar to French, since historical french also dropped final consonants from pronounciations except when the next word began with a vowel. The development of liaison in French worked historically exactly as you describe the a/an pair developing in English; that is liaison in French developed as the final consonant was retained in certain situations, which is exactly what happened with a/an. That was exactly and 100% my point, so I find it odd that you take an oppositional tone and then agree that the n was dropped from an to make a, which was not in opposition to my point. --Jayron32 20:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it was your comparison to the intrusive "r" that I most objected to. As for the comparison with French, there is some similarity, but not quite. In English, this didn't happen with all "n"s, but only with those that were (or were misinterpreted as) declensional/conjugational endings. "N"s that were part of the word stem or part of a suffix were mostly unaffected, except for "an", "mine" and "thine", of course. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

The intrusive "r" is typically used between vowels, like the trailing "n" is. One example we used to laugh at, decades ago, was on The Galloping Gourmet, when host Graham Kerr would refer to his wife Trina and himself as "Treener and I." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:40, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how widespread this is, but various 20-odd-year-olds of my acquaintance are perfectly comfortable with saying things like "What would you prefer, a apple or a orange?", a smorgasbord of glo'al stops. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:20, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

In America, you hear it from people much older than that. A friend of mine (currently in her mid-40s) told me when she was younger she used to tease her mother (presumably currently in her late 60s at the youngest) for saying "Get in the lane with a [ʔ]arrow in it" when giving instructions to the driver of the car she was in. Angr (talk) 20:27, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Very common in children and somewhat common in sub-standard speakers of all varieties of English, and has been for quite some time. Definitely not specific to American or Australian (substandard) English. I haven't heard about it increasing in usage among standard speakers anywhere. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:57, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Previous ref-desk thread. Deor (talk) 21:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh, thanks for that, Deor. How quickly we forget. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 22:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

It need not be sub-standard speakers. I've known educated people who would say something like, "I'll be back in a hour". But they're liable to say "a" as "uh", which makes it work better (or less bad, anyway). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:38, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

And just to throw a monkey-wrench in the discussion, when used before the "long-u" sound, it is always "a" and not "an", as in "I have a use for that" and usually never "I have an* use for that." Although that's a case of a more consonantal u anyways, as it's a u acting like a y (as in you and yours). What's amazing about language is that native speakers rarely have to be reminded of the rules as complex as when to use "a" or "an" even though it is fraught with apparent exceptions and exclusions. --Jayron32 01:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Your monkey-wrench isn't a spanner because what you call a "long u" is pronounced as if it begins with the consonant "y", so follows the pronunciation rule. A genuine long "u" (rare in English) still takes "an" not "a" before it. I don't know of any exceptions to the rule. Dbfirs 06:48, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Christmastime - an Yule event. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Oooo yes! Ha Ha! Very good! (I had to think about it before the penny dropped!) Dbfirs 07:22, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

This was very interesting! I never know the 'an' before a vowel rule, have always just winged it. Napltomatic (talk) 16:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)