Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 July 23

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July 23

Mongol-era names of provinces of Burma in Chinese characters and in pinyin

The Mongols set up two separate provinces in Upper Burma after their invasions in the late 13th century. My sources say the first province with the provincial capital at Tagaung in northern Burma was named "Cheng-Mien" or "Chiang-Mien", supposedly meaning the "Burmese capital". It was set up around 1284/1285. The second province in central Burma was named "Chung-Mien" some time after the invasion of 1287. Would anyone know their Chinese and pinyin spellings? Thanks. Hybernator (talk) 16:13, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Just two educated guesses: 城緬 Chéng Miǎn / Ch'eng Mien, 中緬 Zhōng Miǎn / Chung Mien. (Simplified, they are 城缅 & 中缅) --151.41.215.88 (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that's quick. Thanks! I think your guesses are good. Just found this book by Marco Polo [1] which describes the "City of Mien", which must be Chéng Miǎn. Zhōng Miǎn makes sense too since it was in central Burma. Thanks again. Hybernator (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Chinese Wikipedia's list of provinces of the Yuan empire only has Mianzhong (缅中): zh:緬中行省, but notes that it was also known as Zhengmian (征緬). Hybernator, I note that Zhengmian would have been transliterated in W-G as "Cheng-mien", and Mianzhong as "Mien-chung", which seems similar to what your source suggests. Based on some brief searches these names are also reflected in other sources.

Is it possible that there was only one province but its name was changed as the political situation changed? Also, is it possible that your original source may have reversed the characters for the second name (i.e. from Mianzhong to Zhongmian)?

For completeness, these two names in traditional, simplified and pinyin are as follows:

T: 緬中行省 S: 缅中行省 P: Miǎnzhōng Xíngshěng

T: 征緬行省 S: 征缅行省 P: Zhēngmiǎn Xíngshěng

If it helps, "行省" is the customary abbreviation of "行中书省", a Yuan dynasty regional administrative function which is the direct ancestor of the Chinese "province" in later dynasties and even today. It is usually translated as "province" but literally meant "the Secretariat-in-action". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much. But what does (征緬) Zhēngmiǎn mean? The "City of Mien" reference in the Marco Polo book above seems to favor Chéngmiǎn (城緬) but apparently, it may not have been the true administrative/official name.

One of my two sources, (Htin Aung "A History of Burma" 1967: 70), says according to Chinese sources, Mongols set up the first province of "Chiang-mien" meaning "Burmese province" around 1284/1285. I think this W-G spelling is incorrect. Another source (Than Tun "History of Burma: A.D. 1300–1400" 1959) gives the spelling of Cheng-mien. Also only Htin Aung, again citing "Chinese sources", says the Mongols declared central Burma to be the second province of "Chung-mien" some time after 1287. (Than Tun 1959) doesn't say anything about Chung-mien. It only states that the Mongols abolished the province of Cheng-mien per the emperor's decree dated 4 April 1303. Nothing about "Chung-mien". But I can see your point about a change in the political situation leading to a name change. Mongols could have renamed the existing province from either Chéngmiǎn or Zhēngmiǎn to Miǎnzhōng after the 1287 invasion. So when they did abolish it, they abolished one province, not two. Anyway, now I know the official name was Miǎnzhōng. Thanks again. Hybernator (talk) 01:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Zhēngmiǎn (征緬) literally means "subjugating / conquering Mian (Burma)". I did try to search for references to Chéngmiǎn (城緬) as well but could not find any relevant references. Is it possible that "Capital of Mian" was a post facto (mis)interpretation by someone who saw the W-G "Chengmian" derived from Zhēngmiǎn (征緬)?

This may be relevant: in Chinese translations of Marco Polo the phrase you referred to ("city of Mian") tends to be translated as either "緬城" (Miancheng, "Mian city") or "緬州" (Mianzhou, "Mian prefecture"), but I am not sure to what extent the translators just made those names up based on a literal translation of Marco's words.

Another relevant note is that I found discussions in Chinese sources on the administrative divisions of the Yuan dynasty which suggested that the "expeditionary" xingshengs are different in nature from the other "administrative" xingshengs - while the latter are properly "provinces" similar to the xingshengs of the later dynasties, the former were almost purely military functions during invasions. It is suggested that Zhengmian at least definitely fell within the "expeditionary" category.--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Very informative. Could Zhēngmiǎn be translated as "Subjugated Burma"? If so, it could have been the name of the first "province" (or colony, or whatever). Now, staying with your "subjugating / conquering Mian (Burma)", it's quite probable that Zhēngmiǎn (a la Operation Subjugate Burma) was the name of the campaign, and Mianzhong Xíngshěng (Province of Central Burma) the name of the new province. Plausible, though we're still in the realm of speculation. I wonder if the Chinese Wikipedia's editors have cited an authoritative source (preferably one that cites the original records.) It'll help me put in the findings from this discussion in the Mongol invasions of Burma article. So far, all I've been able to confirm is that the names reported in my Burmese sources, although the authors say they got the names from Chinese sources, is at best incomplete. Anyway, if you do find anything, please reach out to me at my talk page. Thanks again. Hybernator (talk) 00:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Kanji for placenames

Apparently, some cities with a large historical Japanese presence have a kanji version of their name. For example: Honolulu/ホノルル > 花瑠璃, Sacramento/サクラメント > 桜府, Los Angeles/ロサンゼルス > 羅府. Now I‘m wondering if there is also a kanji version for other places which have/had a similarly significative Japanese population, in particular: Koror/コロール (which was also part of the Japanese Empire), Davao/ダバオ (before WW2 80% of the population was Japanese) and Broome/ブルーム. Thanks!--151.41.215.88 (talk) 16:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The kanji description has nothing to do with a large historical Japanese presence. As far as I searched, the three places do not have kanji description. See [2] and [3]. Oda Mari (talk) 09:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Concur. Kanjified foreign placenames have nothing to do with whether there was a Japanese population or not, as can be seen by this list (Mecca is among them, and I can't imagine Mecca having a significant Japanese population). Nelson's Kanji dictionary has a much more comprehensive list, though I do not have it at hand at the moment. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:46, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Swear marks"

Do we have an article about the use of strings of non-alpha, non-numeric characters to represent cursing?

E.g., "Where's the %&$\# dictionary?"

I expect this is covered somewhere in Wikipedia but I don't know how to search for such a thing.

Thank you. Wanderer57 (talk) 16:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Sort of. See Grawlix. Dismas|^(talk) 16:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

As the second ref in that article indicates, another term (coined in 2006) for those strings of characters is obscenicons. See this blog entry for more. Deor (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

"Where's the %&$\# dictionary?" ... "How the Funk and Wagnalls should I know ?" StuRat (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

---------- Touché! Wanderer57 (talk) 23:13, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to all. I've learned the terms grawlix, reportedly coined in 1964, and obscenicons, obviously a newism (2006). My impression is that the use of such representations of profanity in cartoon and in print is considerably older. Is this so? Wanderer57 (talk) 23:36, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I think you mean neologism. Dismas|^(talk) 07:32, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I actually meant newism which is, I think, a neologism. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:46, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

DELIVRANCE

BONJOUR JE SUIS iVOIRIEN ET J'AI ETE CONSACRR PASTEUR DEPUIS JUILLET 2001 ET DEPUIS MON MINISTERE NE DECOLE PAS ET JE N'ARRIVE PAS A AVOIR D4ENFANT AVEC MON EPOUSE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.206.74.76 (talk) 17:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Désolé, ceci est Wikipedia en anglais, l'encylopédie auquel chacun peut contribuer. Personne ici ne peut vous aider aux affaires familiales. --ColinFine (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

This being the English Ref Desk, I feel all Q's and A's should be translated into English. Here's the best I can do with the above:

HELLO I'm Ivorian AND I WAS PASTOR CONSACRR SINCE JULY 2001 AND SINCE MY MINISTRY AND DO NOT Page School I CAN NOT BE WITH MY WIFE AND KIDS - Preceding unsigned how added by 41.206.74.76 (talk) 17:11, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, this is English Wikipedia, the encyclopedia to which everyone can contribute. No one here can help you with family matters. - ColinFine (talk) 17:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

StuRat (talk) 20:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it's trolling. My (non-machine) translation:

Hello, I am Ivoirien and I have been an ordained pastor since July 2001 and since my pastorage began I have not been able to 'take off' [sexual connotation] and I have been unable to have children with my wife.

The title, 'DELIVRANCE', is amusing - one asks God for 'délivrance' from misfortune, as in English you say 'deliver us from misfortune/sin/pestilence, etc., etc. (basically, 'Help me out'). 24.92.74.238 (talk) 20:58, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

good subtitled German films and television programmes

I'm looking to vastly improve my German and one of the strategies I would like to use is watching German films and television programmes with English subtitles. I've tried watching the Tatort Münster series but subtitles aren't available, and I understand probably less than half. Could someone knowledgable about German films please give me some good ideas for what to watch? I've thought of Das Boot (not really my kind of film) but am otherwise stuck! Many thanks. 92.13.77.141 (talk) 19:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Some people watch Heimat to improve their German, don't know whether with subtitles. Would like to read responses, because I think I should be doing exactly the same. I've downloaded some German novels, are you doing that too? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this strategy will work, because subtitles aren't always straight translations. Specifically, they often take short cuts for brevity. So, in English, "I am very glad to make your acquaintance" might become "Welcome", and presumably the same thing happens in German to English subtitles. StuRat (talk) 20:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd recommend watching non-German shows dubbed into German. The quality of German dubbing is astounding, and the voices are provided by professional voice actors who were hired specifically because they speak so clearly and perfectly. That's really important for me because I'm hard of hearing. I've personally watched the Star Trek TNG and Star Trek Voyager series. Other dubbed things I've watched are the 5-hour Italian film about Ludwik II of Bavaria called "[Ludwig II]" by Luchino Visconti (which was funny because even though the actors voices were dubbed into German, they still moved their hands like Italians- a little unsettling, actually) and the [Prinzessin Fantaghirò] series, also Italian, but with an international cast including stellar performances by Birgitte Nielsen and Angela Molina. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I have a friend for whom Dominus Vobisdu's method works. He watches all his favorite movies dubbed into various languages. I can recommend The Lives of Others very highly, but haven't seen too many other films in German. Learning to sing songs is always good, and there are plenty of artists like the Beatles and Peter Gabriel with German covers. μηδείς (talk) 20:34, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

(Multiple ec) It must depend on your own personal strategies for language learning, but I always find it very effective. In Spanish I read the subtitles at first and then find I need them less and less. I was really impressed by the subtitles on Spiral Gangs of Paris; I learned a lot about how to translate the French. It also works in the other direction, which is worth remembering. Monty Python subtitled in French. "Nous sommes une communauté anarcho-syndicaliste". Itsmejudith (talk) 20:42, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Of course, Monty Python also changed The Lumberjack Song from "...just like my dear papa" to "Uncle Walter", in German. StuRat (talk) 20:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

(Multiple multiple ec) When I was doing my German A Level I very much enjoyed watching Lola rennt in class. Since then, I've seen and liked Goodbye Lenin and The Baader Meinhof Complex, which was on the BBC recently. We also listened along to songs by Nena with the German lyrics - my experience of learning Swedish leads me to recommend finding folk songs or similar, and getting the lyrics. Once you get a bit more proficient, also try watching German films with German subtitles, which allows you to confirm that what you think is being said is the same as what's actually said. Another thing you could try is to find a German radio station that plays the sort of music you might ordinarily listen to and just put it on in the background while you're working or doing the housework. Don't worry if you don't understand anything - that's not the point. The idea is to pick up the accent and phrasing of things by osmosis. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

What nice ideas. Haven't yet tried in German but have tried similar strategies in French. I was listening to the radio and thinking about how my old French teacher must be turning in her grave "un très bon aprem à tous et à toutes". I don't think you can rapidly improve your skills without a lot of enjoyment, unlike the school approach, if it ain't hurting it ain't working. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:02, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Inspector Rex? The dialect is apparently Austrian. Zoonoses (talk) 21:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I second Domins Vobisdu's recommendation above about watching dubbed movies and TV series, although in general I think you should steer clear of dubbed-to-German Hollywood movies - the problem being that dubbed TV shows and dubbed movies are handled completely differently by completely different people. Dubbed movies with big Hollywood stars are generally using a rather small cast of high-profile voice actors, most of whom regularly dub several actors (the German voice of William Shatner is the same as that of Sean Connery, Bruce Willis is the same voice actor as Sylvester Stallone etc) - meaning that most voices in German dubbed movies tend to sound the same, which I find seriously grating (this is probably not that much of a problem if you only watch a movie or two, but after a lifetime of watching dubbed movies on TV, I just can't stand the standard voice actors' voices any more). In TV shows, voice actors are generally selected by their ability to match the original actor's voice which leads to a much more varied and satisfying listening experience. In addition to Dominus Vobisdu's excellent Star Trek recommendation, you might also have a look at the German edition of the Simpsons - the voice actors are brilliant, and the translators generally did an impressive job of translating all the puns and little jokes. As far as German movies go, the best ones I've seen recently were the films based on the "Brenner" novels by Wolf Haas (Komm süßer Tod, Silentium and Der Knochenmann) and of course Indien, starring Josef Hader who also plays police inspector Brenner in the Wolf Haas movies. All of these are in rather heavy Austrian dialect, so they might be a bit difficult to understand if you're just beginnging to watch German movies. If you like absurdist, slightly pythonesque humor, try some of the Helge Schneider movies and the old eponymous TV series by Loriot - the latter especially is a great way to pick up on your language skills as part of the series' humor is that most everyone is talking in an incredibly well-pronounced, exact and extremely grammatically correct tone -- Ferkelparade π 22:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Let me endorse the three films mentioned above, Lola rennt, Goodbye Lenin, and The Baader Meinhof Complex. Some other excellent recent German-language films that come to mind:

• The Forest for the Trees (Der Wald vor lauter Bäumen);
• Transfer;
• Cherry Blossoms (Kirschblüten - Hanami);
• The Legend of Rita (Die Stille nach dem Schuß);
• The Tunnel (2001 film) (Der Tunnel);
• The White Ribbon (Das Weisse Band); and
• Alles auf Zucker!.

—Mathew5000 (talk) 23:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

OP here: These are such excellent, helpful, informative answers, with lots of great ideas. Thank you all VERY much! I will definitely look into these. To Itsmejudith, I'm using fairy tales in German for practice also, not novels. I figured my familiarity with the folk tales, like Hansel and Gretel, would help a lot with following along, as well as their general tendency to be written in a more child-friendly, simple way. (Not that I am a child!) 92.13.77.141 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

As far as something worth watching subtitled, I quite enjoyed (without speaking a lick of German) "The Edukators" (Die Fetten Jahre sind vorbei), and of course M (1931 film), with the masterful Peter Lorre. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 18:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The word "paraphrase"

Is the following usage of paraphrase erroneous?: “He paraphrased Burns: ‘A spy's a spy for all that.’” (John le Carré, The Secret Pilgrim (1991), page 10, referring to “Is There for Honest Poverty”.) I always thought that paraphrase meant “to recast a statement in your own words while preserving the meaning”, and I never understood why some people use it as “to alter a famous quotation by a few words so that it refers to a completely different context”. When and how did the latter usage of “paraphrase” arise? I thought it was very recent, but there it is in the le Carré novel from 20 years ago. Is this usage considered standard English? Mathew5000 (talk) 23:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The usage in this sense of deliberate changing the original, using the form but not the meaning, is not uncommon. The on-line OED entry doesn't address the matter directly, the examples it gives of usage are all in the main, literal sense. μηδείς (talk) 03:53, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what μηδείς saw, but the Oxford English Dictionary's online edition lists as the "1. c" sense of the verb "to paraphrase" the following -- "To adapt, appropriate, or alter the wording of (a saying or quotation) or the words of (an author or speaker) to suit one's own purpose. Usu. in infinitive at the head of an introductory clause." The OED provides five example sentences, the earliest of which is from 1841, and reads "To paraphrase Mark Antony, we come to criticise Mr. Anthon, not to praise him." I'd say it's very standard, and I've encountered it frequently in print and the spoken word. Jwrosenzweig (talk) 05:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I swear, I thought I read the whole thing. μηδείς (talk) 17:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I find the sentence and sense works quite well. How would you have the sentence read? 84.3.160.86 (talk) 16:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, Jwrosenzweig. Mathew5000 (talk) 15:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

More than just paraphrasing is taking place when one swaps out parts of a phrase for other parts. One can borrow from, adapt, or retool preexisting phrases, statements, or aphorisms, but this is not simply paraphrasing. The core meaning of paraphrase is simply to recast into other words, as I think Mathew5000 correctly points out with the opening question. Bus stop (talk) 15:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

You may think that, but usage is king. And the OED example that Jwrosenzweig quotes above has multiple examples of the sense "adapt, appropriate, or alter the wording of (a saying or quotation) or the words of (an author or speaker) to suit one's own purpose" going back to the 19th Century. Valiantis (talk) 22:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the core meaning is found at dictionaries such as these:

"A restatement of a text or passage in another form or other words…"

"a restatement of a text, passage, or work giving the meaning in another form"

"1. ) a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording; 2. ) the act or process of restating or rewording."

Usage is king. I think the OED is showing us that liberties are often taken with the quintessential meaning of the term. Bus stop (talk) 23:16, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The OED is a record of usage. It tends to mark usages that are widely considered as erroneous as erroneous, and won't include a usage if there isn't sufficient evidence that it has significant usage in the English corpus. The examples show us that competent writers such as Thomas Hardy and Philip Larkin, as well as the Times (of London), (to give three of the examples) have used the word "paraphrase" in the same way as Le Carré does in the OP's initial post for well over a century - and by implication, many other users of the language have done so too. There is no possibility for confusion in this usage of the word as it's clear from the phrase that's been altered that "alteration of a saying or quotation" is the intended sense. Valiantis (talk) 13:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

You say that "There is no possibility for confusion in this usage of the word…" I agree, as concerns the examples cited. In my opinion there is nothing incorrect about using any word in an off-definitional way unless there is the possibility for miscommunication. If an instance comes up (I don't know of one) in which the wider definition of "paraphrase" that the OED may be condoning, allows for confusion, then in that instance I think we would have to say that "paraphrase" is being used incorrectly, because it is straying from its core definition and thereby introducing imprecision that may not be deemed tolerable. I would think that many terms could be and are used in ways that stray slightly from precisely what they mean. But if an instance arose in which a term's unorthodox meaning clouded clear communication I think we would have to consider that usage incorrect. Bus stop (talk) 17:21, 27 July 2012 (UTC)