Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 1

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October 1

Hindi pronunciation

How is Dikshit (दीक्षित) pronounced, especially the 'i's? --168.7.228.232 (talk) 01:37, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

[ˈd̪iːkʃɪt̪]. The first i is like the ee in sheep; the second is like the i in fit. Lesgles (talk) 05:20, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Though I have been told that in Dikshit is pronounced deex-hit in Southern states (of India), which ties in with Paul Henry's mispronunciation or radio. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:09, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Possibly, or that may also just be a way for people to avoid the unfortunate associations the syllables have in English. Lesgles (talk) 15:09, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

There are various people that have adopted the spelling 'Dixit', possibly to avoid those connotations. However, to be clear, the syllables in Hindi are 'di' and 'kshit'. --Soman (talk) 15:35, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

My uninformed observation is that a few words with a "sh" sound in Hindi seem to be pronounced with a "s" sound by Tamil speakers and possibly speakers of other Southern Indian languages. -- Q Chris (talk) 19:36, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Tamil doesn't seem to have a /ʃ/ phoneme, so that would make sense. The woman Paul Henry was talking about was from north India, though. Lesgles (talk) 20:56, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I believe (though I can't recall any now) that some Sanskrit words with /kṣ/ are cognate to Greek words with 'x', so it makes a kind of sense to use 'x' for /kṣ/. To further the analogy, the glyph for /kṣ/ is unusual in not resembling those for /k/ and /ṣ/! (/ks/, with plain /s/, is impossible in Sanskrit so 'x' is unambiguous.) —Tamfang (talk) 03:58, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Some types of Bengali seem to have only "sh", no "s"... AnonMoos (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

w/ vs. ⊆

Waaaaaay back when I was in college (the 1980s), I noticed that some of my classmates used the symbol ⊆ to represent with in their notes. I always jotted down w/ in the same situation. I know ⊆ as a mathematical symbol, but how and when did it come to mean with? (None of us were using any "official" shorthand, just our own made-up versions.) Thank you.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 06:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

In medicine, c̄ (c with a line over it) is used as an abbreviation for "with"; it comes from the Latin cum. I'm guessing this is a holdover from medieval scribal abbreviations. C with a line underneath may be a variant on that. Lesgles (talk) 07:15, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

That means subset, as in A is a subset of (or is included in) B, denoted by $A\subseteq B$. StuRat (talk) 07:34, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Pitman Shorthand uses a similar symbol for "with". One of my last lessons at sixth form was being taught some very rudimentary shortforms in this shorthand: I remember the symbols for "as is" and "is as", as well as "with". So your classmates may have had teachers like mine! --TammyMoet (talk) 11:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, in Pitman shorthand the logogram for the grammalog "with" is similar, but it is not identical. It is a small semicircle shaped like a "⊂" and positioned above the line of writing, but it does not have a horizontal underline like the one in "⊆". The logogram for the grammalog "when" is similar to the logogram for the grammalog "with", except that it is positioned on the line of writing.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

For that matter, how did w/ get to represent with, particularly on Fox News where many shows are "<name of show> /w <name of presenter>" (eg. Your World w/ Cavuto)? Astronaut (talk) 19:04, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Someone probably invented it when he was torn b/w ways to write about going out w/ his g/f. Seriously, isn't it just a simple shorthand? Or do you mean "how did the slash come to be an abbreviation?" 66.244.68.64 (talk) 21:55, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I have been using w/ to mean with for more than 40 years. I just thought it was a simple abbreviation, but not used in formal writing.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 23:09, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Actuallly, w/ is a formal abbreviation used by secretaries, clerks, editors and typesetters, all of which I have been or, in the first case, worked with closely. You are right it is not used in formal publishing, but not because it is informal, just because it is an abbreviation. μηδείς (talk) 03:52, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I wonder why being ranked from the 12th to 31th it is "with" that are very often shorthanded. Is this word so long?--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 14:48, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

It's a 50% reduction in effort, whether by symbols or strokes. Fifty percent is 50%. When you are typing comments in a limited field on a csr acct while spkg w/them as you neg't their ord, its a huge hlp.μηδείς (talk) 20:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

il cane Flike

In the Italian movie Umberto D. (1952), the dog's name is Flike /flajk/. Any idea how an elderly Italian might come up with a nonsense English word to name his dog? Was it meaningful in wartime jargon? —Tamfang (talk) 09:05, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Flicka. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:16, 1 October 2012 (UTC) More specifically, My Friend Flicka. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:17, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

As late as the late '80s/early '90s, there was a tendency to put nonsense pseudo-English on some merchandise in Italy. I don't really know why. I remember a candy bar called "Tronky". --Trovatore (talk) 18:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

What makes Flike and Tronky "pseudo-English"? To me they seem nothing more than invented words that (presumably) don't violate Italian phonology. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 19:13, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, pronouncing Flike as /flajk/ is most definitely not Italian, and I can't think of any language it could be except English. For Tronky it's a little harder to put my finger on exactly why I think it's pseudo-English, but it certainly appears that way to me. --Trovatore (talk) 19:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

What other languages (of which the average Italian might be aware) would end a word with nky? I suppose Flaik – we don't really know the spelling – could be a German word. —Tamfang (talk) 04:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Flunky - According to Wiktionary, "A sycophant; a servant or hanger-on who is kept for their loyalty or muscle rather than their intellect." Wonky - "weird, whacked out, messed up, not working for no definable reason. Usually applied to technology." Hanky - abbreviation of handkerchief. HiLo48 (talk) 10:53, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, and these examples are in response to what? —Tamfang (talk) 03:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I've always thought that "Tronky" was a pun on "tronchi", Italian for "logs". Probably because they look just like logs. Ferrero is not new to similar pseudo-Englishisations. For example I remember a “Happyfania”, a pun on “happy” and “epifania”.--151.41.218.203 (talk) 10:43, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

That makes sense. I knew tronco in the sense of "trunk"; I'm not sure I ever came across it in the sense of "log". --Trovatore (talk) 03:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

(Oh, also, Italians seem to think the word happy sounds like "epi", but English speakers don't hear them as very similar. Presumably this is because Italian lacks the /æ/ vowel.) --Trovatore (talk) 03:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

There's an old-fashioned Italian supermarket near where I work, and most of the transactions at the deli section take place in Italian, often along the lines of "500 gramme di em, per favore".

SBS broadcasts overseas news services outside prime time. Sometime a little while ago it relayed the Rai Uno story about some underworld murder. I initially didn't didn't hear the story, but the scrolling News ticker text said the body of the deceased was found "nel garage di killer". Like some horrible ghoul I tuned back in later, and it was reported that the body of the deceased was found /nɛl ˈgarad͡ʒ dɪ kɪlɛr/.--Shirt58 (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The article on the Italian Wikipedia transcribes the dog's name as "Flaik". I think the My Friend Flicka theory is very far-fetched. Gabbe (talk) 21:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes - see: Cani e cinema: Flaik del film “Umberto D.”. If I could read Italian, I would tell you what it says ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 21:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

It's a summary of the film, with no etymological help. —Tamfang (talk) 04:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

An equally far-fetched idea - could it by a phonetic spelling of "flake" as in "snow flake"? The dog is mainly white and Tin-tin's dog was called "Snowy"... Alansplodge (talk) 21:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

A phonetic Italian spelling of flake would be "fleic". It would obviously not be an Italian word, but if you pronounced it according to Italian rules, you'd get pretty close to English "flake". --Trovatore (talk) 21:48, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Ironically, in Aussie English, "flake" would be pronounced "flike". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:04, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, that might be your perspective... HiLo48 (talk) 10:53, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as in the well-known Aussie greeting, "G'dye, mite!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Bugs's intuition is largely confirmed by Australian English phonology, which notes that the "a" vowel in words like "face" and "bait" is pronounced with the /æɪ/ diphthong. In General American, the similar /aɪ/ diphthong is used in words like "kite" and "might", whereas the words "face" and "bait" use the /eɪ/ diphthong. As /æɪ/ doesn't exist in American phonology, it gets "heard" as closer to /aɪ/. So to Americans, Australians sound like they are saying "flike" when they say "flake", because they're using a vowel sound completely unused in American English. It's the closest analogy an American can make, because there is no other analogous vowel sound. Received Pronunciation also shows /eɪ/ in those uses. I'd say the use of the /æɪ/ diphthong in those places is as close to a shibboleth of Antipodean English as there is. --Jayron32 16:48, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the important thing to note is that Australians pronounce bake and bike (and all similar words) completely differently. Yes, both are different from the way Americans may say them, but we are all correct. OK? HiLo48 (talk) 22:00, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

No one said you weren't. --Jayron32 22:34, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• I moved discussion unrelated to answering the question to WT:RD Please carry on that portion there, if anyone wishes. --Jayron32 04:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

WHERE'S THE LINK, JAYRON? μηδείς (talk) 02:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Because in NZ English the /ɪ/ is more centralised and lowered that in AuE, Australians claim that they pronouce "fish and chips" as "fush and chups". Conversely, New Zealanders hear Australians as saying "feesh and cheeps". (And in my experience, the only people who can tell difference between New Zealand and Australian accents are Australians and New Zealanders!)

And while we're are alomst on the topic of the Australian /æɪ/, in some varieties of AuE, "coke" and "cake" are as near to homophones as makes no difference. The <o> starts on a sort of nazalised æ (close to /ɛ̃/, to my ear) up to an unrounded, fronted ʊ (/ɯ/ but fronted-er), and the <a> starts on a sort of nazalised æ (again close to /ɛ̃/ and goes up to /ɨ/. I found this out when I was working a concession stand that sold both Coke and cake.--Shirt58 (talk) 08:55, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

What's a concession stand? It's OK, I do know, now, but it's another linguistic difference, and not exactly the most obvious name for a place to buy crappy food. As for "coke" and "cake", I'm certain I pronounce them quite differently, but I also know that when I was in the US and tried to order a "coke", I was met with blank stares, on several separate occasions. I've heard other Aussies say the same thing. We need to get more of our TV shows on the air in the US. That's how we all learnt how to understand American. HiLo48 (talk) 09:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48, sorry if you thought that I was taking the mick, mate (/mæːɨʔ/) but as a (admittedly very much non-hard core) language nerd, I just can't help code-switching. No harm, no foul? (Aaargh!) Anyway, here's a quote from one of Australia's foremost practitioners of The Yartz, talking about problems faced by Australians overseas:

MIKE: Stuff em! If we'd just be honest with ourselves for a change, we'd admit that our accent is bloody awful for the simple reason we never open our bloody mouths. It was good enough in the old days when Grandad was out in the bush and had to keep the flies out bit it's death to the international saleability of our product.

David Williamson, Emerald City, Act 2, pp 62-63. Quotation from work under copyright is claimed as a "fair use" under the applicable legislation and fair use where the WMF's servers are located, with attendant reciprocity under international and Australian conventions, legislation and case law. And so on and bloody so on. HiLo48, are you familiar with the International Phonetic Alphabet? My ken oath, it opens spoken language like you wouldn't believe. --Shirt58 (talk) 10:32, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Arabic roots s-y-d and sh-r-f

What did these two roots (from which the words Sayyid and Sharif came) originally mean? Do they have cognates in the other Semitic languages?--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 15:51, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

From what I can tell from the Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, it's root s-w-d (basic meaning "chief, master" etc.) and root sh-r-f (basic meaning "elevated, noble, illustrious")... AnonMoos (talk) 23:56, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. But I rather looked for a "hidden" meaning or etymology. Like Latin nōbilis came from nōsco "to get to know" or English lord from hlāford "bread keeper". Though, maybe there is not such indeed. P.S. It seems that s-w-d means "black" [1].--Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 14:26, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

According to Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, s-w-d "black" and s-w-d "chief, master" are two separate roots (s-w-d "black" doesn't occur in the basic Stem I verb). AnonMoos (talk) 21:29, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

So why do -y- and -w- alternate in the same root? It seems that more real words derive from s-y-d than from s-w-d "master etc." Actually I can't find a word from the latter in the dictionary. Maybe su’dud "dominion" can fit but there is hamza not waw. --Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 23:41, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Are English creoles syllable-timed?

I can't find this anywhere in Wikipedia--is Virgin Islands Creole (and are English creoles in general) syllable-timed rather than stressed-timed, unlike English? Duoduoduo (talk) 16:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

David Crystal says yes for Caribbean Englishes in general at http://ibog.woe.systime.dk/index.php?id=184. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:53, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Wow--great find--thanks! Duoduoduo (talk) 16:07, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Good clips, aren't they? I liked the way he explained by poems. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:16, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese help - 古希天子始皇绎臣

I recently posted a question asking help to translate some seal script characters from a ritual yue axe. No one responded because I can only assume little people have experience in the subject. Well, I have managed to find the modern equivalents of the characters using a seal script etymology website (it took a while since my Chinese is not that great). It appears the characters from the front side are 古希天子始皇绎臣. I'm not quite sure how to translate them. It might be referencing Qin Shihuangdi (始皇). It appears that a longer version of the phrase appears on a similar axe. Does anyone happen to know what this page has to say about the axe? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:16, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Could it be translated as a something along the lines of the "Rare Son of Heaven, Shihuang ..."? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

古希 (古稀) is a Chinese idiom meaning 70 years old, from a poem by Du Fu, 人生七十古来稀 (it is rare to be 70 years old since ancient times). 古希天子 is probably a reference to Qianlong Emperor (天子 Son of Heaven means Emperor of China). He called himself 古稀天子 and made a seal inscribed as such. --Kusunose 03:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

But why would it make reference to the First Qin Emperor? Qianlong obviously lived much later. What does 绎臣 mean within the context of the other characters? --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The page you linked to has the following explanation for those two phrases:

1. “古希天子”：秦王赢政在经过血腥风雨后建立起统一王朝， 这位四海之内独一无二的霸主雄君，认为自已“德兼三皇，功过五帝”，就拟应称帝，（帝者，天号、得天之道者为帝）。如黄帝、炎帝、帝尧、帝舜等，三代以降，这些带有“帝称”的有道天子己经被神秘化，由人间的至尊上升为天界主宰，更具有权威性和神圣性。又有“天地大矣，生而弗子，成而弗有，万物皆被其泽，得其利，而莫知其所由始，此三皇五帝之德也”，即取“天帝”合二而一，兼而称之，以显示自己是人间的无上至尊。号曰“皇帝”。这位自夏王朝建立以耒，真正统一中国的第一人，便由秦国的“王”变成了秦帝国的第一位皇帝。古往今来能配得上“始皇”的也惟有赢政一人，正是如此，堪称为中国历史上“千古一帝”，名垂千古，“古希天子”顺理成章、名符其实。所以近代著名维新志士谭嗣同指出：“二千年政，秦政也”；毛泽东也曾经写诗吟颂道：“百代多行秦政制”。

... essentially meaning "son of heaven, rare in history".

2. “始皇绎臣”：与当初秦始皇赐封泰山之松为五大夫之意途同归。秦始皇的泰山封禅是为了实现天下共主的身份。途中遭迂风雨袭击，避雨于松树之下，事后因护驾有功，此松树被封为[五大夫]。在这里“绎”与遗”取意相同,“遗臣”并非仅指人臣，对著“玉器文宝”同样有赐之为“宠臣”之意，企盼秦王朝江山社稷与珠宝玉器一样永固相传。“朕为始皇帝，后世以计数，二世、三世至于万世，传之无穷”。“史记”：秦二世既位,次春，东行郡县,到碣石.并海,南至会稽,尽刻始皇所立之刻石,以章先帝成功盛德.曰：“金石刻尽始皇帝所为也.今袭号，而金石刻辞不称始皇帝,其于久远也,如后嗣为之者,不称成功盛德”。二世称“始皇灭六国,威振古今,自五帝三皇未及.既已袭位,而见金石尽刻其颂,不称始皇盛德甚远矣”.可见自秦二世时对秦始皇的称颂盛行已始

... essentially meaning "[this rare and valuable axe] is a minister from the time of the First Emperor".

The author of that article therefore concluded that this was engraved during the time of the second emperor of Qin. Personally I find the reasoning and conclusions a little shaky.

I don't have enough time to translate these at the moment, but if no-one beats me to it will be happy to come back to it another day. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 16:57, 8 October 2012 (UTC)