Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 April 14

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April 14

Language Identification

What in the flying sanskrit is this language? I've never seen it before, and i've tried looking at all the languages in google translate and none of them look anything like this.

ScreenShot

Thanks

137.81.118.126 (talk) 00:55, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

It's one of the scripts of J. R. R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings languages. I wanted to say Tengwar, but not quite. ~!RNealK (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:38, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I think you meant Cirth. --Error (talk) 02:21, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I was going to say it looks like some variety of runic alphabet... 86.146.106.118 (talk) 01:45, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I have done a little searching on Google, and it appears that 86.146.106.118 is more correct. (The text seems runic). Specifically, it seems to be SIMILAR to a language known as "Futhorc". However, i question if it is a variant of such, as most Futhorc i have found thus far has a "Forwards P" letter, but the image i have has a similar "Backwards P" (flipped horizontally).

Does anyone know if my assumption is correct? Is this some variant of Futhorc, and if so what variant? Also, if possible, does it say or mean anything, or is it just gibberish designed to "look cool"? If it helps, i found this text in a flash game "Pain Tiger" for some twisted reason.

137.81.118.126 (talk) 02:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Futhark is the name of the alphabet by its first six letters, not the name of a language. It's just a matter of brute transcription to figure out if this is Tolkien or Runic. μηδείς (talk) 03:00, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

It's in Cirth, and using the table in our article it transliterates letter for letter as "for you I am ready on the great khallnge". The last word is weird but I don't see how I could have gotten it wrong. Looie496 (talk) 03:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I have also used the table on Cirth to manually translate the message, and i would agree that Looie's analysis is correct, including the strange last word. I would hypothesize that the use of "K" instead of "C" is maybe done for fun, possibly in reference to the fact that Cirth is pronounced "Kirth" (The language easily supports saying "Challenge", as there is a letter meaning "Ch").

Thanks for the help!

137.81.118.126 (talk) 03:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

French knowledge while travelling in France

I'm about to embark on a European tour until next month. Most of the time, I will be spending time with relatives living in France. In order to "survive" a long period in France, is even basic knowledge of French necessary? They said few French people understand English. Also, I'll travel to Spain, Italy, Germany and possibly Austria, so is knowledge of the languages there necessary too? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 03:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

It depends on where you are and who you deal with. The more cosmopolitan the area, and the younger the people you deal with, the more likely they are to handle English well. In any case it would certainly be useful to master some key phrases such as oui and non and merci and voulez vous coucher avec moi ce soir. Looie496 (talk) 03:25, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

The last question will likely garner the response "Va te faire enculer!" Which is a polite way of declining said request. --Jayron32 03:35, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Also a useful phrase to know. Looie496 (talk) 03:42, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Polite expressions, especially the variations on merci, would always be welcome. And if you're trying to find out if someone speaks English, better not to ask "Parlez-vous anglais?" but rather "Do you speak English?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:49, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Since I was last in France in the 1980s, you probably won't consider me a reliable source, but from my experience, many of them know quite a lot of English, and most of them know a bit. This would not have gotten worse since the 80s, but I doubt the average person in a shop would be expected to know enough English to serve you. As for Germany, my understanding is, like Scandinavians, they are almost fluent, and my guess is you will be fine. Italy and Spain I haven't a clue about, but French is probably the language to learn. If you are travelling without their languages, you should get travel advice on the dangers you will face, since my parents were cheated out of quite a bit of money by a confidence trickster in Italy. It's not that language is the problem per se, but a swindler may see that you lack confidence etc. and can prey upon your general dependence on others. IBE (talk) 10:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

More possibly unreliable personal experience, but I found that in France, the only place where a relatively large number of people spoke English was in Paris, probably because that's where all the tourists go. Most of them were happy to do so, and enjoyed the opportunity to practise. If someone didn't speak English, they would just say so, no problem. A couple of people fit the rude stereotype of being rude to anyone speaking English, or of being able to speak English but refusing to do it, but that was rare even in Paris. I also never had to ask someone if they spoke English, since they will probably recognize your English accent right away (and they can probably tell if you're American or British, at least...apparently I confused people, they always thought I was Irish). The rude stereotype, I am sure, comes from the idea that they should speak English. Why should they? Wouldn't it be annoying if someone came to your country and expected you to speak their language, without even bothering to try speaking yours? Of course it would. It's the same there. Anyway, elsewhere in France, if you're in a place where there are lots of tourists, then certainly the people who are used to dealing with tourists will speak a bit of English, but otherwise probably not. Where I lived (Nantes), pretty much nobody spoke English, and nobody at all in the little towns and villages in the surrounding area. They were happy to try though, even if they only knew a few words. In Germany, like IBE said, a lot more people know English, and a lot more fluently, and they are rather more proud about it than people in France are. In my limited experience of Italy and Spain, Italians seemed to speak French but not English, and Spanish people seemed to speak English (but not French!). Adam Bishop (talk) 11:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually, in France it would very much depend of where you are going (in Paris of course it is no problem) ; you are going to find much english being spoken in the Périgord, and around the côte d'Azur (Nice, e.g.), because English people have beein going there as tourists for a long time (and I rather suspect the Périgord/Aquitaine thing has to do with history; they were always close bonds between Aquitaine and England). Same holds true for Italy: Venice, Rome and Florence are no problem, whereas Sardinia and Sicily would be very difficult. Lectonar (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Similar situation in Spain, so far as I know. In the tourist areas and tourist-frequented parts of the big cities there will be widespread but possibly fairly basic knowledge of English, but much less so in the more rural and non-frequented areas, and among older people generally. ¿Habla inglés? would be a good phrase to know. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

• In rural areas, when asking a "phrase tourists should know" (eg. donde esta la playa) just expect a long response in some unknown dialect, smile, thank them, and hope they used a lot of hand gestures you understood. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:45, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  • That's why it's better to say "Do you speak English?" Because if you ask that question in their own language, they may assume you know more of the language than you really do. Also, if you get a blank look, you'll have your answer. And they say, "A little", then you've got some common ground to work with. And another tip is, speak slowly. As you would hope the other-language speaker would if you know some of their language but are not fluent. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

From my experience, and from most travel guides, I would recommend the opposite. Try to address people in the local language. Just imagine how you would react if someone unexpectedly accosts you in an unfamiliar language in, say, Chicago or Boston or Denver. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. In my experience in France, it's always best to start off with a cheery "Bonjour!" and to have looked up the key words of whatever you want to communicate beforehand, even if you can't make a sentence. The French people that can speak English will then be more than happy to help you out, but away from Paris and the Channel Ports, a substantial minority of people will only know a few English words. Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

And try not to mispronounce their personal names. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 20:01, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Not only should you speak slowly, you should also speak loudly. "Mercy buttercups" and "shut the door" are good to use while shopping and talking to pretty strangers in France. "Me wantem" and "You savvy" are helpful phrases when speaking English to foreigners. Other helpful advice can be found here. μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Essential French: J'apologise, mais je ne parle pas Français, Où est le vaysay (vaysay is WC; the toilet) and Deux bières, et mon ami payera. Have a good time. Tonywalton ^Talk 00:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that is part of the joke, but in case not, I will say that "j'apologise" is not French. "Excusez-moi/pardon/je suis désolé(e), mais je ne parle pas français." Lesgles (talk) 04:56, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Am I the only one who's genuinely baffled by people who say "I don't speak [language]" in said language? Gabbe (talk) 07:12, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm a logician, so I got my sister, who is a historian and romanist, to teach me how to say "Excuse me, I only speak very little French" in French. In practice, that tends to confuse people more, because it's a much more complex statement. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any logical contradiction. The ability to speak a single sentence in a language doesn't imply an ability to speak that language (as the concept of "speaking a language" is normally construed). Victor Yus (talk) 07:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for being vague. Other languages than English often fail to make a distinction between "I am speaking Aramaic" (as in what the actors are doing in The Passion of the Christ) and "I speak Aramaic" (as in actually being able to communicate in that language). It is true that in English, the utterance "I don't speak English" isn't normally construed as "I am not speaking English". But in Swedish, for example, both those phrases would be translated as Jag talar inte engelska. Gabbe (talk) 09:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

teaching french as third language to deaf children

i am researching on the problems deaf children face in learning french as a third language, a compulsory subject for all taking government end of course exams in Cameroon. so i wish to find out the effects of

• late exposure
• interaction with other users
• interference of other languages and
• the use of limited language skills (listening, speaking, reading and writing ),on language acquisition.

195.24.209.22 (talk) 14:13, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry that no-one has got back to you yet on this. You seem to need to do a major literature review of language acquisition. I think it will take you some time. As far as I know, it is well established that late exposure has a negative effect on language acquisition. When languages are acquired as third languages, after early childhood, the methods used are the usual school methods, and they do not always succeed. And then you have the factor that you are talking about Deaf children. I'm from the UK, and I think that here, Deaf children could be exempt from learning a second language, let alone a third one. There could be some good practice in Wales, where most children learn English and Welsh - from an early age if possible. (Of course they may be bilingual in British Sign Language and English, so any other language is a third one for them.) About interaction with other users - this is central to most learning of further languages. Interference - there is an academic literature on that; the bit I remember is that you only get interference with languages that you are not fluent in. I sometimes get interference between Vietnamese and Spanish, which really annoys me. "Va" means "go" in Spanish, "and" in Vietnamese. The languages have nothing in common, it's just that I'm not that fluent in either. I never get interference betwen English and anything else, or French and anything else because I have English as native and French near-native. The importance of limited language skills on acquisition of a further language, I am sure it is important, but not a reason for not trying. If you have a practical problem, i.e. how to get your students through their French exams, I suggest that as well as this specialist stuff you need to rely on what we know generally about teaching and learning. Have high expectations. Keep your students motivated. Believe that they can learn and let them know that they can learn. Give praise. Break tasks down into manageable parts so that they can see progress. Make it fun. Show them what the rewards are of being able to communicate in French. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Wanted Chinese to English translator

Can somebody help this user (an active editor of Chinese Wikipedia) who asked some help on meta-wiki for translation. I am pasting the question here for your convenience.

Text to be translated (click show)

本讨论為法轮功学员在維基百科的活動研究。以下内容遵循维基百科支柱方针制作。
事實上，由於本人抵觸法輪功學員的做法，因此本人多次受到他們的威脅，例如“人在做、天在看”，“上天一定會懲罰你”之類的言論。本內容在中文維基的傳播也因此受到影響。

定義

法轮功学员組織，是一個非正式的活躍於維基百科的團體。目前沒有任何證據支持此團體與其它组织本身的關係，但由其系列成員對維基百科編輯內容的定向性，以及行動的一致性，可以將其與其它用戶，包括管理员、巡查员、回退员等用户组，或台獨、藏獨、港獨用戶群體區分開來。

用戶特徵

另從用戶頁的資料看，他們並不會宣稱自己是法輪功學員，而喜歡貼上一大堆的用戶特徵模板。而且相較其它類似的用户组，此用户组有著更為強烈的正义感和热情。或者說，其他用户组根本沒有組織性，而他們有。這是在維基百科，尤其是中文維基百科所絕無僅有的。

組織架構

法轮功宣傳用户并无任何证据显示具有上级领导等的架构体系。除在法轮功宣傳的过程中，他们会显示出行动一致性外，无法了解他们的层级模式。
从用户页资料显示，及其与其它维基人的日常对话，他们普遍不在中国大陆，多分布于北美地区和台湾。而且目前看香港澳門地区活跃的用户并不多见。

活動形式

法轮功宣傳用户，从帐号上看，排除使用的傀儡，基本上可以被认为是个体，除非单个角色使用多重人格。在一定的时间段，会有固定的个体维持在维基百科的法轮功宣傳活动。而如果此个体在编辑过程中发生违规行为而被封禁，则在其活跃期结束后（主帐号及傀儡帐号），他会永远离开维基百科。
他们往往会编写有关法轮功方面的内容，并借用BBC、CNN等西方媒体（规模不限，由大报到地方小报都有），以及与法轮功相关的媒体作为引证。尤其是，他們會優先選用法輪功相關媒體作為資料來源，這也是他們區別於一般用戶的特徵。
但他们从来只有列举各国对法轮功内容及组织的同情，以及对其自由宣扬表达内容的权利的保护，而从来没有展示过法轮功组织的理论、手段正确性的证明材料。
而当法轮功受到质疑时，所有活跃帐号会一起行动，对质疑者展开宣传工作，引导他走向法轮功的一面。在讨论过程中，他们会表现为轮流上阵，你说完到我说。
法轮功宣傳用户，普遍对号称唯物主义组织表现为强烈的反感，认为号称唯物主义组织是邪恶的，是非正义的，是非自由的。
在2012年以前，法轮功宣傳用户会选择以激烈的方式编辑维基百科。在法轮功宣傳的道路上，他们会用直来直往的手段编写法轮功内容，并有可能会因此与维基百科管理员产生冲突，从而导致其被封禁。被封禁后，他们有可能会使用傀儡帐号继续编辑。
2012年开始，法轮功組織似乎改变了编辑模式，换句话说，希望能更好地融入到维基百科群体中去。为此，他们会使用各种沟通方式，竭力讨好其他维基人。这其中包括条目编写方式建议，修改协助，投票支持条目通过选举等。但一旦有人质疑法轮功背后的事实，他们马上会显得极具正义感。
法轮功宣傳用户的水平参次不齐，但普遍表现为像新手那样对维基百科的运作模式了解得未够深入，例如搞错维基百科商标的所属权、误解维基百科编辑的“自由”含义。他们编辑的内容一般情况下，在初期，由于过分的义愤填膺而显得比较凌乱。但在其它维基人的指正之下，如果条目到最后未被提删，往往在质量上会有提高甚至飞跃。此外，他们中的部分成员知识水平存在提高空间，如将黑龙会与日本维新会混淆。根据目前的观察，这些编辑人员几乎不参与理科类型的条目编辑。

其利用維基百科宣傳自身的手段

维基百科，因其接近无政府状态，极为容易引起某些团体的信息发布地。而我们可见的目前，法輪功學員正对此引发一场前所未有的宣传革命。以往，他们希望不断地使用破坏手段，以对抗形式对维基百科的信息编辑修改为倾向有利于他们的内容。而目前我们可见的是，他们开始改变他们的形式和态度，尽管他们的目标从来没有改变的打算。 我们可以简单将他们的手段归纳为：

1. 事先编好一个地区并且互相表示没有联系，唯一特征是都支持法輪功。
2. 对维基人的友善，不宣传信仰信息，只拉近关系。
3. 到人家DYK投票区时表现勤快，且经常给人编辑意见（至于其意见是否正确，这里不作分析）。如果有人打算参与什么评选，则积极支持，甚至主动提名。如果对方需要协助拉票，则主动前往协助。还可以适当地相互吹捧一下，维持大家之间的关系。
4. 偷换各种概念，使用维基百科方针对自己的编辑行为作出各种各样的辩解。
5. 喜歡長篇大論地討論大是大非，稱反對自己的用戶為非正義。
6. 一旦讨论抵觸法輪功，他们会表现出极大的愤怒，认为这是中共的走狗，是对西方普世价值的不尊重，是违反维基百科的方针。
7. 喜歡聯繫各地的民主內容宣傳條目編輯者以擴大影響力，甚至影響投票本身的公正性以達到互惠互利的效果，如對法輪功同情者的優良條目以真人傀儡投票予以灌票手段。

他們的目標

他們似乎非要製造一個虛擬的敵人，所以所有反對者一概可以稱之為“五毛黨”（意思是受中國共產黨收買的維基人）。他們存在的意義好像只有打倒中共，這也是他們打出的旗號。但為此，他們所使用的宣傳手法，與中共的五毛黨甚至中共中央媒體毫無差別。
维基百科一向并不封死任何政宣群体的宣传道路，这也是滋生这些人群的重要因素。不过目前可以预见的是，这些人群正以类似的手段，对维基百科的方针、运作模式乃至参与者发起挑战。在今后的未来里，一部分同情他们的人群，可以被他们组织起来，针对对他们不利的信息以群体互助的信息予以删除。如果再将目光放远一点，他们甚至可能获取管理员甚至行政员的位置。我在这里简单归结这些手段的总体目标：由以往简单的政宣场所，变为“我们自己的政宣场所”，持续扩大我们自己的人群，以强化我们自己的力量。

It would be better to answer the question there itself if you have an account there. Thanks for your help···Vanischenu^「m/_Talk」 20:49, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Name to describe linguistic repetition?

What is the name of a type of linguistic repetition, as in this case?

舒服 ==> 舒舒服服

I suppose the English equivalent would be something like "teensy weensy eenie beenie" or maybe something like "honey, here's your din din!" 65.24.105.132 (talk) 23:32, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Reduplication, but there are different, more specific types. μηδείς (talk) 23:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Ideophones are forms which use suggestive sound symbolism (often reduplicated or partially reduplicated). Ideophones are somewhat marginal in English, but some languages have whole elaborate systems of them... AnonMoos (talk) 03:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Gormless

I can't find a definition of the word "Gormless" in the dictionary we have. Would you give us the definition? It appeared in the Toronto Star newspaper April 14th, 2013. It was used in a sentence:"the reference works nicely given that both novels feature GORMLESS , inexperienced characters 216.59.226.164 (talk) 23:58, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Gormless means a bit dumb, a bit thick, a bit stoopid. The OED has "Wanting sense, or discernment." Free online dictionaries at both Webster (http://mydictionary.myresources.com/browse/gormless ) and Chambers (at http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/ ) have the word, as does Wiktionary, here Tonywalton ^Talk 00:21, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Most ref desk regulars are relatively gormful. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Indeed: '...from gome "notice, understanding" (c.1200), from Old Norse gaumr "care, heed," of unknown origin'. [1] Alansplodge (talk) 20:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

In my experience "gormless" does have a more affectionate tone than, say, "stupid" or "thick", though (and yes, I'm aware of the etymology from both OED and Wiktionary). Somebody gormless is more likely to receive an affectionate "bless" yes, I'm thinking of a specific apprentice working with me; everybody says "ah, bless" when recounting his/her antics than an annoyed "for God's sake" when they display their gormlessness. More Norman Wisdom than Chauncey Gardiner. Tonywalton ^Talk 23:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

MAkes you wonder what 'gormful' would mean..... KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I dunno, but I'm glad Gorm the Old married Thyra and not Ruth. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:23, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

The word "Gormless" is something that is "hanging" or "gross" Another example of "gormless" is shauna leigh jones