Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 January 14

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January 14

Need help with what this statement means?

The statement is "Revenge threatens laws that uphold justice." Does anyone know what this means? Thank you. I need an answer please by 7 a.m. EST or 12:00 UTC. Thank you. JHUbal27 03:06, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Did you know that more than one country in the world has an EST? And some are very different from yours. HiLo48 (talk) 03:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I take it to mean that taking the law into your own hands threatens the rule of law. Lynching is an example. StuRat (talk) 03:21, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

How would anyone know what the statement means? Maybe it means peanut butter should be applied to bread before jelly. Bus stop (talk) 03:30, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's why he's asking:[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

It sounded like a homework question. I suppose if someone wants to answer it, fine. But there is no "answer". Are "revenge" and "laws" and "justice" symbolic of other things? Bus stop (talk) 05:02, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't know. I went looking for a source for the quote, and the yahoo answers thing was all I could find. But here's a related item: "Violence is justified in the service of mankind." You're supposed to ask, "Who said that?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

lol Attila the Hun/Woody Allen Bus stop (talk) 12:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

And the boy gets a cigar! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

What does that mean? No such user (talk) 12:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

A line from Love and Death. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Woody Allen: Sonja: "Violence is justified in the service of mankind!" Boris: Who said that? Sonja: Attila the Hun! Boris: You're quoting a Hun to me?[2] Bus stop (talk) 13:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

That was me on Yahoo answers. Well, thanks for the answers. Yes, I know there's more than one time zone in the world, that's why I included UTC. JHUbal27 11:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

If justice contains an element of revenge or revenge contains an element of justice, it could be restated as "Revenge threatens laws that uphold revenge" or "Justice threatens laws that uphold justice" or "Justice threatens laws that uphold revenge." Bus stop (talk) 12:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I think you are unnecessarily confusing the issue. A conventional division in legal theory is that the punishment of offenders may serve some or all of four purposes: 1) Revenge for society, which gets to harm those who have harmed it; 2) Natural justice, whereby an offender gets their just deserts; 3) Protection for society, if a punishment makes it temporarily or permanently harder for the offender to repeat their offence; and 4) Deterrence, whereby other criminals become less likely to offend, in order to preserve their liberty, limbs, and life. If you assume that (1) and (2) overlap, then perhaps your conclusion follows - but no such thing is a given assumption. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:51, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure you are right. I was just making light of the slight and superficial implications of the two words. Bus stop (talk) 13:03, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I suspect "revenge" means "retributive action outside of the law" to most people in the question posed. See America the Beautiful Confirm thy soul in self-control/ Thy liberty in law. It is common, in fact, for "debate topics" to require the opposing sides to seek to present their own definitions of the issues - as an exercise in logical argumentation. Collect (talk) 13:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

• StuRat's comment seems correct to me. The subordination of the individual desire for revenge to objectively stated and executed principles (e.g., minarchism, rule of law) is a big deal in Ayn Rand's politics: "A government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of physical force under objective control—i.e., under objectively defined laws." μηδείς (talk) 20:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Term used to describe a technique

Can someone please tell me what's the term used to describe a technique used by a company to support its wholesaler or distributor’s sales force by deputing one of its employees with them? Thanks for the help! Linkinfloyd (talk) 10:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Secondment? — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Awkward phrasing: double negative sentence, what is the meaning?

• Instead, he notes, the Bible "does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century".

The double negatives are confusing. I am going to write in the affirmative.

• The Bible does contain a single sentence that could have been written by a man or woman living in the first century.

I think that is what Sam Harris has written, and the Wikipedia article of him has quoted. Now, the meaning does not make any sense, because it's pretty obvious that all the sentences in the Bible are written by men. 140.254.227.61 (talk) 15:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

You could rephrase it along the lines of "The whole of the Bible could have been written by..." But to be honest I don't think the double negative is too bad. --Viennese Waltz 15:59, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

(ec) No, the sentence doesn't mean what your "affirmative" sentence states. What the sentence means is "Every single sentence in the Bible could have been written by a man or woman living in the first century" (i.e., none of the sentences contain information that was not available to people in the first century, and thus the text contains no evidence of an omniscient author). Deor (talk) 16:04, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Right — this is actually just ordinary first-order logic. We can rewrite Hariss's sentence as:

$\lnot \exists x(P(x)\land \lnot Q(x))$

where $P(x)$ means "x is a sentence contained in the Bible" and $Q(x)$ means "x could have been written by a man or woman living in the first century".

If you want to move the negation past the quantifier, you have to change the existential quantifier to a universal quantifier. Step by step, the sentence is equivalent to

$\lnot \exists x\lnot (\lnot P(x)\lor Q(x))$ (De Morgan's laws)

$\lnot \exists x\lnot (P(x)\implies Q(x))$ (definition of material implication)

$\forall x(P(x)\implies Q(x))$ (connection between existential and universal quantifiers)

and the last sentence translates back into English as "every sentence from the Bible could have been written by a man or woman living in the first century. --Trovatore (talk) 02:45, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

In grammar terms, I think it's important to see 'not a single' as a specific negative construction. The reverse is not "A single..." but "Every..."; so "Every sentence contained in the Bible could have been written by a man or woman living in the first century." I do not consider it 'pretty obvious' that the whole Bible was written by men; in particular, I'd suggest that some or all of Judges 5 came to something like its present form through the work of a female poet. It would certainly be impossible to prove that no sentence of the Bible was written (or composed) by a woman. I think it's also pretty likely that decent chunks of the Bible could not have been written by anyone in the first century, because they're clearly older than that. The Dead Sea Scrolls, hidden in the first century but at least partly written earlier, contain Hebrew texts of the entire Tanakh - just to pick one example. See also Septuagint.

(after ec) Harris is right about the implications for omniscient authorship (although if he thinks that's every denomination's concept of inspiration, he should think again), but he is just as foolishly and radically simplistic in his attitude to the text as those he criticises. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

It seems the link in the reference is dead, but could he be not talking specifically about the New Testament? Because that's the only part actually written in the first century, and the statement does not make much sense in the context of the Old Testament prophets. (The word 'Bible' is outside the actual quote in the Sam Harris (author) article) - Lindert (talk) 16:12, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

After writing my reply, I went and read that article, and discovered the same things that you have. Let's just say that you're probably right, but that I wouldn't look to Harris for nuanced Bible scholarship in the first place. It's in his interests to depict the entire thing as nonsense, rather than paying sufficient attention to, e.g., genre criticism . AlexTiefling (talk) 16:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I think there is a general anti-religious sentiment underlying some of the claims made by some militant atheists to the point of irrationality. Psychologists would probably say it's normal anyway. We are partly influenced by our emotions, not by reason alone. 140.254.227.61 (talk) 16:21, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

How to pronounce Leonowens

How is the name Leonowens (as in Anna Leonowens) pronounced? Like Leon and Owens put together? Or does something get elided like in Leominster? I don't think I've ever seen the name before. Thanks. PS: I don't read IPA. PPS: Is there a good resource (free and online, I hope) for pronunciations of British family names? --108.45.72.196 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

As 'Leonowens' was a contraction of 'Leon Owens', I expect that's exactly how it's pronounced. Now I have here a letter from a Lieutenant Llewellyn Cholmondley-Featherstonehaugh in Plaistow telling me that his friends Mr Menzies in Milngavie and Dr St John in Holborn both find his name hard to pronounce... AlexTiefling (talk) 16:52, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

"Throat Warbler Mangrove", of course. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:17, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

This site; LBPH (Libraries for the Blind and Physically Handicapped) Pronunciation Guide to Names of Public Figures gives /lē-ə-NŌ-ənz/ and has a sound file. I'm a beginner at IPA, but after a bit of research, I get lee-uh-NO-uhnz (the "uh" is like the unstressed "a" in "Tina". Alansplodge (talk) 17:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

"/lē-ə-NŌ-ənz/" is certainly not IPA. It's presumably LBPH's own system. --ColinFine (talk) 18:53, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

D'oh! No wonder I was struggling! Alansplodge (talk) 18:58, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Fine, Colin, fine! (I knew what you meant, Alan.) --108.45.72.196 (talk) 19:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks, Alex (I think). The pronouncenames.com website says: lee-uh-NOH-uhnz, instead of lee-on-Owens. (I know loo-ellen, chumlee, fanshaw and sinjn, but I'll have to look up the others.) Thank you to you as well, Alan. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 17:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Marjoribanks to you, Orange Mike, with a Krzyzewski on it! --108.45.72.196 (talk) 17:57, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Alex T, we need to know if your Leftenant Looellen Chumley-Fanshaw is writing from Plaistow, Newham or Plaistow, West Sussex, otherwise we shan't know which pronunciation to use. Please advise. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 19:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting that the Welsh and oddest looking name is the closest to phonetic :) 72.128.82.131 (talk) 02:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I actually know of a Mr Mingis in Mulguy.... -- Arwel Parry (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to reply! I meant Plaistow in Newham, pronounced Plasto. Llewellyn isn't Looellen, it's more like hlu-ellin. Menzies = Mingis, Milngavie = miln-GYE, St John = SINjen and Holborn = HO-b'n. Tomorrow we can handle Culzean, Dalziel, Loughborough, Beauchamp, Beaulieu, and if we go abroad, Växjö. AlexTiefling (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

No problem! I didn't know that about hlu-ellin; I think I know Beechem and Baloo; in Washington DC, there's a loffburro Road; have to look up Culzean, Dalziel and Växjö. Can you say Krzyzewski? Of course you can, because you're a big fan of American college basketball. Thanks! --108.45.72.196 (talk) 01:54, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

'Hlu-ellin' is a simplification: the initial consonant is a voiceless alveolar lateral fricative. English has always found this hard to transcribe and pronounce - this is why Shakespeare has a character called 'Fluellen'. As noted below, Beaulieu = BYU-lee. Culzean = cull-AIN and Dalziel = dee-ELL - like Menzies, these show that in Scottish names, z can be a simplification from yogh, and never have represented the normal 'z' sound at all. Växjö is the nastiest Swedish placename I know - it's approximately veh-KHYUH, but the terminal vowel sound isn't really found in English. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and I don't follow college basketball at all, even though I attended one of the few British high schools which might have given me a decent preparation for it. But I am interested in Polish history, and so I presume that Krzyzewski is pronounced krzh-ZEV-skee. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:51, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea how that particular person says his name, but in general, half of the problem with horrendous-looking Polish words can be eliminated if you remember that "rz" is pronounced like /zh/ or /sh/, depending on what precedes it. There are no separate /r/ or /z/ sounds, despite appearances (exactly as there are no /s/ or /h/ sounds with our "sh" digraph). So, a guy from Poland with that name would say it something like "kshi-zhev-ski". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 11:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

That particular person pronounces it "Shuh-shevski", but everyone calls him "Coach K" to keep it simpler. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I was referring to Coach K. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

It's the horrendous-looking Scottish names that would give me nightmares—all that yogh stuff—Yuck! --108.45.72.196 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding initial sound in Llewellyn/Hlu-ellin/Fluellen, it sounds sort of like the eff in Japanese "Fukushima" or "Mifune" which is romanized as an eff but it's not labio-dental (and you thought I didn't know a fricative from a fricasee!) --108.45.72.196 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

For those not familiar with linguistic jargon or Japanese, you put your tongue on the roof of your mouth and blow. The lips and teeth are not involved. Alansplodge (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Växjö (veh-KHYUH), AlexT. I was irritated when I researched it here on WP because all the chart of Swedish/Norwegian sounds told me was, as you point out, "there is no English equivalent" for the final vowel sound. Isn't that the ideal place for a playable sound file so we can at least hear what it sounds like? Grrrr! --108.45.72.196 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

For one thing, as mentioned in sj-sound, the actual realization of this sound varies considerably between dialects. Nevertheless, there is a sound file link in Swedish phonology#Fricatives.—Emil J. 19:51, 15 January 2013 (UTC) Actually, there’s another sound file in the infobox in the sj-sound article, which I missed at first.—Emil J. 19:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Emil, I'll look at those links. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 04:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

• Tolkien supposedly met a real-life Sam Gamgee (i.e., Gammidgy, or the like) towards the end of his life. μηδείς (talk) 02:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Naturally, we have a list: List of names in English with counterintuitive pronunciations. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:14, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Jack. I see I was wrong about Beaulieu. An American surname pronunciation is "BuhLOO"; your list has "BYOOlee" in the British/Irish placenames section. I better stop reading them before I lose it. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 03:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

• My two favorite placenames are Kvevlax and Brumfiss. Sounds like a kid's cartoon. μηδείς (talk) 21:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Or names for your next two kids, Medeis! (lol). --108.45.72.196 (talk) 18:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe for pets. As for children I go in for traditional names and spellings. μηδείς (talk) 19:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

They've written a song about one of your kids, Medeis.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:52, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

You have me thoroughly confused, Jack. Are you implying Koivulahti or New Brunswick is referenced in that song? μηδείς (talk) 04:30, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Look at the name of the child's parent, and then maybe remind yourself about something or other. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, duh! LOL. I'd've gone to my grave never having figured out what you were talking about. I really did think you must have meant there was some version of the song in which New Brunswick, NJ figured. μηδείς (talk) 19:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

For your homework, read The Diary of a Nobody while singing "I, I Who Am No One". -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:23, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, to beg off on the homework, you have to realize that I think of myself by my real-world name, Leslie Robin Gambolputty-de-von-Ausfern-schplenden-schlitter-crass-cren-bon-fried-digger-dingle-dangle-dongle-dungle-burstein-von-knacker-thrasher-apple-banger-horowitz-ticolensic-grander-knotty-spelltinkle-grandlich-grumblemeyer-spelter-wasser-kurstlich-himble-eisen-bahnwagen-guten-abend-bitte-ein-nürnburger-bratwürstel-gespurten-mitz-weimache-luber-hundsfut-gumberaber-schönendanker-kalbsfleisch-mittleraucher-von-Hautkopft of Ulm, and not by my username here, which I adopted for the sake of anonymity. μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Nursing in the UK

According to the Nursing in the UK article, "Remnants of the religious nature of nurses remains in Britain today, especially with the retention of the term "Sister" for a senior female nurse". What are comparable male nurses called? 216.93.234.239 (talk) 22:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Charge nurse. Alansplodge (talk) 22:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC)